Purgatory

[RJB]

One of the Beatitudes says, “The pure in heart will look on the face of God.” (I’m away from my Bible, so the quotation is from my admittedly imperfect memory.) So, how does one get to have a pure heart?

Also, the reason (I believe) Luther rejected the canon of the Church that had 1 & 2 Maccabees in it was because the men of the Church at the time were charging huge amounts to pray for the dead. This abuse of indulgences, in part, led Luther to do what he did.

 

[RNRobert]

I think something that has to be understood about the concept of purgatory is that *sin has consequences. *Before I became Catholic I thought that the blood of Christ negated the concept of purgatory. However, while Christ’s finished work saves me from Hell, when I sin, it damages my relationship with God and my fellow Christians, and I do not grow in faith as God wants me to. Look at it another way: if you have children, and they disobey you, you will probably punish them even if they admit their wrong. As Hebrews 12:6, tells us, "For the Lord disciplines those whom he loves, and chastises every child whom he accepts.

During our life we are to work with God in becoming holy, but, as Belfarmer pointed out, we sometimes have sins we like and are reluctant to let go. C.S. Lewis uses the analogy of a tin soldier being transformed into flesh and blood. The tin soldier in this case is sentient and rebels against becoming flesh, preferring to remain ‘tin’. Lewis provides another example in his book The Great Divorce, about a busload of souls who travel from Hell to the outskirts of Heaven and are given the opportunity to enter Heaven. One of the souls appears with a lizard-like creature on his shoulder, whispering things in his ear (the creature probably represents a sin the man was attached to). He tells the creature to shut up, and an angel appears, offering to kill the creature. The soul is torn: he wants to be rid of the creature, but is afraid of the pain that will accompany it. Eventually the soul relents and allows the angel to kill the creature. The soul does suffer agonizing pain, he is transformed from a pale ghost (as all the condemned souls appear) into a solid person like the angel, and the creature is transformed into a horse, which the man rides off into Heaven.

 

[Pax]

One of the most beautiful examples of purgation is found in the OT. Everyone would agree that Isaiah was a holy man and prophet before God. Moreover, we probably all agree that he is in heaven. Nevertheless, Isaiah was given a purgation and he himself recognized the need for it.

In Isaiah 6:1-7 we read about the prophet was in some fashion taken up to heaven. The passage reads as follows:

"IN THE year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim; each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory.” And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!” Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin is forgiven.”

I hope this helps to demonstrate the need for and the existence of purgatory.

 

[quasimodo]

I don’t know if this will help in the purgatory discussion or not…

I was in a conversation with a OSAS Baptist type. He had said that because of our previous conversations, that he believed I was saved too. So I asked him if, when we die, we suddenly become someone else. He said no. I asked him to imagine a place full of people like us. How heavenly would heaven be if it were filled with people like us? We were both still attached to sinful ways and prone to sin - at least to some degree. It would not be heaven very long if we were not changed - sanctified; all our attachments to sins great and small would have to be removed for **nothing unclean shall enter heaven. **

Purgatory is the place where we all finally are cleaned of any residual desire for liturgical dance.

 

[Philthy]

Does the Blood of Jesus Christ cleanse from all sin or not? If not, are you ready to say He lied?

Excellent question - have you actually given it much thought? The question is not whether the blood of Christ cleanses all sin, but how and when that cleansing takes place.
For example, when you sin do you believe that if you confess your sins that God is faithful and just and will cleanse you (cf 1John1:9)? You probably do. You can’t confess a sin before you commit it can you? Is it not true then, that the forgiveness and cleansing that we get when we confess our sins occurs in time, throughout our lives? That means that the eternal sacrifice of Christ for the forgiveness of sins is applied in time as is needed. This should not come as any great surprise - for we know that Christs sacrifice occured 2000 years ago, but the application of it continues to this very day as additional people repent, believe and are baptized into Christianity.

daddy:

Our God is a just God. He showers mercy and grace upon us for His Son’s sake. He poured out the wrath that we deserved upon His Son who did not deserve it.

Sounds good doesnt it? But there is a problem: If God is perfectly just and He poured his wrath for all sins of mankind for all time out on his son, why does he still punish the sins of those who are in hell? Hint: you will have modify your understanding of what Christ accomplished on the Cross and, in particular, HOW IT IS APPLIED to mankind.

I

 

[ddmason]

It looks like a majority of the responses I read proved it. This is a sore subject for many, however it is a state that exists and is taught correctly by the Catholic church. Why is it hard to accept considering all God can do? God is beyond measure. Souls need to be purified to enter Heaven which is why sin does not exist in Heaven. All those that go through Purgatory go to Heaven because they are being cleansed from the stains of sin. God bless all of you. Amen.

 

[dbacks5439]

I certainly don’t want to offend protestants, but here’s what I’ve observed.

Protestants reject most of Catholic doctrines because they feel bogged down. “All this for salvation? All this for a personal relationship with God?”, one might ask. Purgatory, Marian Dogma, justification, salvation, and the numerous T(t)raditions we have (such as fasting one hour before Mass, etc) does seem a bit too much. However, if one does his homework, he will see that what goes on in the Church, goes on in Heaven. Because we have a broken nature, sometimes what goes on in the Church may be imperfect, such as the indulgence abuse. Take away those imperfections of human sin, and leave Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Eucharist, etc behind, you will have Heaven on Earth.

Since we cannot fully know God as humans, for He is too Great and Powerful, why must protestants always try to make everything “easy” and “convenient” for themselves?

 

[MariaG]

I’ll try tomorrow guys. I don’t know everything and I have to get the hang of the quote function. I do believe that the transformation is not purgatory though. It is death.

Just marking the thread.

 

[Cardinalsong]

Prove it.

Now that I’ve read through all the posts so far, I can’t seem to find anything that proves that Purgatory does not exist.

I had trouble believing in Purgatory at one time as a Protestant most of my life (baptized Catholic as a baby). But coming to these forums, lurking & reading most of the time & asking questions that don’t put someone on the defensive, I’ve been given enough proof to believe Purgatory exists.

I heard someone say (I can’t remember who-someone on The Journey Home w/Marcus Grodi on EWTN) that Purgatory is the “Front porch of Heaven” where you wipe your feet clean before entering the household, which, in this case, is the Household of God.

Even if Purgatory does not exist, what is lost here? People living godly lives to the best of their ability, go to confession as much as possible (which IMHO would be much more uncomfortable & difficult than confessing directly to God in the comfort of your own home) and being obedient to God & His Church end up going straight to Heaven instead because no Purgatory is a bad thing? Sounds like the belief in Purgatory is a win-win situation, don’t you think?

BTW, I also apologize for some of my uncharitible remarks that were removed by the Mods yesterday, they were completely uncalled for. I hope through all this you can come to an understanding of what Catholics believe, even if you disagree. Peace my Hoosier friend (I am a Hoosier transplant from PA myself )

 

[Bishopite]

As short as possible but not disrespectfully, yes.

So…before you die you will be perfectly sanctified, you will have perfectly and completely repented and turned away from EVERY sin? Even the sins in your thoughts? Even the sins you habitually commit? And you will before your death have perfect charity toward others always, every act, every moment?

If you say yes then I think you are giving yourself way to much credit.

I heard a saying recently…those who say they are sinners are saints and those who say they are saints are sinners!

 

[KathleenElsie]

1 peter 3 18-20 Peter stated that Christ went into hell and "preached " there Paul said something similar in eph 4:7-10

DOUAY-RHEIMS 1 ST, PETER ch 3 verse19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison

This is enough to prove to me that there is a third place where souls can be after death. For the souls being preached to were not yet in H*** for there is no release from H***. But are in a place where they can still repent and become pure. Prison was a place to hold criminals or others till they were ransomed. Those that were not to be ransomed were in general killed.

So in my belief this is true:

prison = Purgatory

 

[Philthy]

The unconfessed sins are removed from you as far as the east is from the west.

How and when?

hoosier:

Unconfessed sins are covered under the confessed sins.

How and when?
hooseir:

When you confess your sins God is faithful to forgive us our sins (all of them) and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

How can he do that if they are already forgiven? This makes no sense. In addition Christ specifically tells us that if we dont forgive others their sins, then our heavenly Father will not forgive us ours. How do you reconcile your above theology with this rather direct statement by Christ?

hoosier:

It is impossible to know every sin in order to confess every sin.

Scripture tells us that the spirit intercedes for us because we do not know how to pray as we ought - so your objection is a moot one. But from my perspective, you are only digging a deeper hole for yourself by admitting that we die with unconfessed sins that somehow we get cleansed of in the afterlife.

hoosier:

Yes, I confess my sins to God when I fall. It is not for the purpose of getting saved again though. It is to restore fellowship between us.

The issue we are dealing with is forgiveness - not salvation - when we confess sins. The question remains: In your theology, if we knowingly ignore confessing our sins does God forgive them anyway? Yes or no? How and when?
As a separate topic, what did Christ fail to accomplish on the Cross which results in a break of “fellowship” with God for believers who are righteous before God?

hoosier:

If I die having failed to confess some of my sins I would be just like everyone else in heaven.

Not really - by your own admission you would be in a state of imperfect fellowship with God. How do you propose that your state of imperfect fellowship with God will be restored so that you may “have life and have it to the full”?

 

[Philthy]

I think one of the biggest problems with Protestants accepting Purgatory - apart from misunderstanding and suspicion of all Catholic doctrine - is simply how it is worded. I propose the following:

Purgatory is the word used to describe how the grace procured by Christ’s Crucifixion is applied at the end of the earthly life of Christians to prepare them to be in God’s presence for all eternity.

Im interested if any Protestants find this more acceptable or simply more of the same…

 

[gardenswithkids]

I can’t agree with purgatory because it seems like a slap in the face to Jesus, like his death on the cross and his shed blood were not enough. I believe the Bible teaches that the cross and his blood were enough.

Hi Hoosier, my heart goes out to you as I read your threads, especially if you think we are slapping Jesus in the face with our beliefs. I see purgatory entirely different from how you do. The Bible speaks of people being “washed in the blood of the Lamb”–I view purgatory as God’s laundry room where He washes us. Forgive my homemaker analysis but some stains are hard to get out of the laundry, particularly those stains that are set in. Other stains come out easily, like those with stain resistent fabric. Even after we come to believe in Jesus, we still sin. Sometimes we do it on purpose, other times we’re just like my kids who play in the mud without meaning to get dirty. Jesus cleans us, but living in this world sometimes we get dirty again and we need Him to wash us some more. If we die with stains on our soul, God removes them through purgatory so we can enter heaven all sparkly clean. (Okay, I probably need to go do some laundry instead of sitting here on the computer.)

Can I ask now, why do you guys want to believe in purgatory? …I would think we would all rejoice in the truth; that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That is a wonderful thing to look forward to. Jesus died to forgive our sins but He also died to destroy the bondage we were in, that being the fear of death. Why would I want to negate that and fear death all over again? This is what I’ll do if I believe I am going to go into fire. If I were to go into fire after this life I would know that I got it wrong and I am in the Lake of Fire and I am not coming out.

Thoughts?

Why do I believe in purgatory? I don’t think we’re in bondage to the fear of death–I think we’re in bondage to sin, and I want to be free of sin. I think purgatory is the final step in becoming free from sin. I’ve been a Christian for years, yet I still find myself sinning and I absolutely hate it, (well most of the time, except maybe some of those favorite sins of mine, like spending too much time on the computer when there’s housework that I should do .)

Like you, I rejoice in the thought of seeing the Lord, but I also have an idea of what my soul might look like to Him, (probably something like what’s in my laundry), and I want my soul clean when I see Him. I don’t dred the thought of purgatory; I actually like believing that He truly takes away my sins, and He doesn’t just cover them up.

 

[JOE_OBERR]

Will do but somehow I have a feeling it will be contrary to Scripture. In fact, I almost…know it.

The implied premise here is that the Catholic teaching of purgatory must be supported from or based on Scripture. What book, chapter & verse from Scripture supports that premise?

In other words, where did God say that your implied premise is true?

 

[Mintaka]

Um… have we already quoted Isaiah and the burning coal story? Or the stuff Jesus said about having to pay our debts to the very last penny?