Purgatory

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hoosierdaddy said:
Thank you for posting that. I’d like to post what I believe now.

This is talking about the judgement of seat of Christ, where saved believers go to receive rewards for their faithful service or loss for their selfishness. However, they will still be saved. The fire is symbolic of God’s judgement, of His holiness. It’s not a fire one goes into; it is the holiness of God trying each man’s work. If your belief is true, then one’s works would have to go to purgatory but not the person himself.

I hope that even though we disagree we can have a respectful discussion. 👍
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Right on my bible believing brother…You get 2:thumbsup: 👍
 
"hoosierdaddy:
Yes. I am required to defend the faith against all enemies foreign and domestic…oh wait…I don’t protest so much as I fight for the truth. It is the Catholic church who protested the reformation because they didn’t want to be held accountable and brought back to the basics.
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hoosierdaddy said:
Did God reveal purgatory? My belief is no, He did not.
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Do you believe this denial of purgatory is somehow a return “to the basics”? If so, you are wrong. Denial of purgatory is a radical break with what the Church and Sacred Scripture has always taught regarding the necessary purification of the sinner before entering into the holy presence of Almighty God: “[A] woman is more bound when her husband is dead…Indeed, she prays for his soul, and requests refreshment for him meanwhile, and fellowship (with him) in the first resurrection; and she offers (her sacrifice) on the anniversary of his falling asleep.” — Tertullian*, On Monogamy, 10 (A.D. 216).*
Code: 
                     "For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Cor.,3); but also wood and hay and stubble, **what do you  expect when the soul shall be separated from the body**? **Would you enter into  heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God**;  or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no  reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; neither is this just. **It  remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light   materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a                          cleansing fire**. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature                          has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. **It is manifest that the fire                          destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of                          our great works.**" — Origen*, Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445, 448 ( **A.D. 244**).
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                        "**Let us pray for our brethren that are at rest in Christ, that God, the lover                          of mankind, who has received his soul, may forgive him every sin**, voluntary and                          involuntary, and may be merciful and gracious to him, and give him his lot in                          the land of the pious that are sent into the bosom of Abraham, and Isaac, and                          Jacob, with all those that have pleased Him and done His will from the                          beginning of the world, whence all sorrow, grief, and lamentation are                          banished." *— Apostolic Constitutions, 8:4,41 (**3rd Century**).
*I’ve skipped over the many, many Biblical references gathered at the link below, because you’ve shown yourself immune from that teaching. Am I drawing a wrong inference or do you deny you are asserting you are right and the Church Fathers are wrong in this matter?

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html#tradition-I
 
I have a problem with the term “the mother church”. The Church is the Bride of Christ of which we are all members. There is no such thing as the mother church so why do people use that term? And this presupposes that the “mother church” has it right when it comes to purgatory. 😉
 
hoosierdaddy said:
I have a problem with the term “the mother church”. The Church is the Bride of Christ of which we are all members. There is no such thing as the mother church so why do people use that term? And this presupposes that the “mother church” has it right when it comes to purgatory. 😉
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In all due respect to our Catholic friends whom allow us to be here, it is a term they hold dear…
 
Say, I just found a web site that you may be interested in. It provides scriptural support for the teachings of the Catholic Church - many, many pages of it. I suggest that anyone who is interested in this discussion, on whatever side you are on, go and take a look at this site. It will take a long time to go through, however, so happy reading.

scripturecatholic.com/index.html
 
hoosierdaddy said:
Does the Blood of Jesus Christ cleanse from all sin or not? The blood of Jesus clensed us from origional sin and allows us to enter heaven at some point if we continue in Him. But, it is also said that faith without works is dead. We are to continue till our deaths. So IMHO we are not saved forever no matter what we do. Remember the unforgivable sin. How do you explain this? If not, are you ready to say He lied? God lie? Of course not I have never said that and find that a personal insult.

Our God is a just God. He showers mercy and grace upon us for His Son’s sake. He poured out the wrath that we deserved upon His Son who did not deserve it.

I am doing a good job of trying to have rational discussions. Please do not provoke me or you will just be added to the ignore list. I have not provoled you. It is your choice to ignore those that do not agree with you. I take the time to learn and listen. Again with as many post in such a short time IMHO it allows little time to think and learn. However if someone fights with me or attacks me I tend to get angry. I am sorry you have this problem no one has attacked you that I have seen. Only tried to answer you questions with answers you tend not to listen to. This causes a multitude of posts; not that posting a lot is a sin. Is it? No
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We would do well to remember that Scripture speaks of more than just heaven and hell. In 1 Peter 3.19, Peter refers to “Limbo of the Fathers,” the abode of the just. This shows that another state other than heaven and hell is not unbiblical. Some will argue that Scripture only speaks of heaven and hell. This is incorrect as we see in 1 Peter; Scripture speaks of another place. The question arises is there, or could there be a fourth place.

Purgatory is not an anti-biblical doctrine; it is not unreasonable. It is a doctrine of comfort and mercy. Nor is Purgatory a late invention of the Church, as many Protestants claim. Evidence for belief is purgatory goes back to Judaism herself with the Maccabees. The earliest Christians believed in this state. As stated earlier, it is not till the Reformation that we find the first denial of purgatory. Scripture commands us to “keep the traditions” that has been handed down to us (2 Th 2.15). If we are to be faithful to the Scripture, then acceptance of purgatory follows since, as St. Augustine shows, purgatory is part of that “tradition.”
 
Posts have been deleted due to lack of charity or of being off topic.
 
mommyof4 said:
Say, I just found a web site that you may be interested in. It provides scriptural support for the teachings of the Catholic Church - many, many pages of it. I suggest that anyone who is interested in this discussion, on whatever side you are on, go and take a look at this site. It will take a long time to go through, however, so happy reading.

scripturecatholic.com/index.html
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Beat you to it! See post #55. Great minds, etc. 😉
 
Cranch said:
Beat you to it! See post #55. Great minds, etc. 😉
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Ah, yes! Sorry I missed your post. I thought that the site had some great information on it. I think I’m going to bookmark that one.🙂
 
I would agree with you as a Catholic hoosier that we are cleansed by the Blood of Jesus, this happens also throughout our lives.

The only thing I disagree with is that sin actually can separate us from God. Nothing can snatch us out of His hands but we certainly can jump out of His hands. No-one can force us to reject God but God allows us the free choice to reject Him and He loves us so much He respects our will.
People choose Hell.
That is where I disagree with you, I believe that sin can separate us from God by us choosing to be separated.
(that is a whole other discussion)

But as for being washed in the blood of Jesus, that is Purgatory you just don’t call it that.
Being washed in the Blood of Jesus is God making us perfect and this isn’t done until we are dead and the proof is in the fact that we have an inclination to sin and we do sin.
We cannot sin in Heaven so what does God do before He lets us into Heaven?
But we need to affirm that God will remove all attachment to sin, inclination to sin and sin from us at death. Do you sin right now? Do you have the power to remove that inclination or does God do that to you before you enter Heaven?

God Bless
Scylla
 
mommyof4 said:
We would do well to remember that Scripture speaks of more than just heaven and hell. In 1 Peter 3.19, Peter refers to “Limbo of the Fathers,” the abode of the just.
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1 peter 3 18-20 Peter stated that Christ went into hell and "preached " there Paul said something similar in eph 4:7-10
 
hoosierdaddy said:
Does the Blood of Jesus Christ cleanse from all sin or not? If not, are you ready to say He lied?

Our God is a just God. He showers mercy and grace upon us for His Son’s sake. He poured out the wrath that we deserved upon His Son who did not deserve it.

I am doing a good job of trying to have rational discussions. Please do not provoke me or you will just be added to the ignore list. I take the time to learn and listen. However if someone fights with me or attacks me I tend to get angry. This causes a multitude of posts; not that posting a lot is a sin. Is it?
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Could it be that the manner by which the Blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us is through purgatorial cleansing?

-ACEGC
 
hoosierdaddy,

The following verses speak to the imperfect state of Christian believers.

2 Tim 2:21-22
If any one purifies himself from what is ignoble, then he will be a vessel for noble use, consecrated and useful to the master of the house, ready for any good work. So shun youthful passions and aim at righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call upon the Lord from a pure heart.

James 4:7-10
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.

1 Peter 1:22
Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere love of the brethren, love one another earnestly from the heart.

1 Jn 3:3-4
And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. Every one who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

1 Cor 5:7
Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed.

2 Cor 7:1
SINCE WE have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.

Most of us are not perfect and free from sin in this life. Our sanctification is the mechanism for making us perfect. The book of Hebrews refers to the saints in heaven as the “souls of just men made perfect.”[Hebrews 12:23] This verse is in perfect harmony with the Book of Revelation where it states that “nothing unclean” will enter heaven.[Rev 21:27] We will either be made perfect in this life through sanctification before death or we will be given a final sanctification after death if needed. If this does not happen we could not enter heaven. Purgatory is our final sanctification and it is the only explanation as to how the “spirits of just men are made perfect” should they have died with any imperfections.

By the way…the doctrine of purgatory in no way detracts from the complete work of Christ on the cross. We are justified by grace and the blood of Jesus and we are likewise sanctified by grace working within us and by the blood of Jesus. I can easily establish this latter point by way of scripture if you need it. Obviously, God’s grace is the power and instrument of justification and sanctification. The latter will for many include purgatory, and none of this detracts from the work of Christ. This is instead a description of the mechanism and application of the complete work of Jesus in the soul of the believer.

If you would like us to address the term “mother church” please start a thread on that topic and we will be glad to help you out.
 
hoosierdaddy said:
No, none of us will have the inclination to sin in heaven. Here on earth is a different story though.
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Ahh, so then there is a fundamental change in our nature between earth and heaven. We’re 99% of the way there. 🙂

What would you call that fundamental changing of our nature?
 
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