Purgatory

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Here we go this is how I explain this to non-catholics, only if they believe Jesus died for our sins and makes us perfect. And nothing unclean can enter Heaven so you must be perfect to enter Heaven.

The difference is a Catholic sees the declaration of God saying we are perfect as something that changes us inside and out, we don’t just look perfect.
God’s Word has power.
So when He says be clean to a leper the leper is actually clean, he just doesn’t look it.
When God says let there be light, it just doesn’t look like light but there is light.

So when God declares us perfect we are made perfect and Born Again.
If He, washed me in the Blood of Jesus this happens when I am Born Again and when He forgives my sin after I sin. So even though I might die with a small sin on me without rejecting God I am loved and accepted by Him. So even though I am sinning He forgives my sin and washes me in the Blood of Jesus. We all know we are not perfect right now, I am a sinner and so are you, but if you are a friend of God He will accept you anyways and make you perfect.

Now without Him doing that right after I die I cannot enter Heaven so He washes me in the Blood of Jesus and allows me to enter into His kingdom.
Or else God ignores or can’t see sin. God and sin are incompatible so He has to remove my sin to allow me to enter Heaven.
That is the requirement of purification before we enter Heaven or to deny that sin matters to God.

Catholics believe that sin matters to God so purification is required.
We call that purification, Purgatory, you can just call it purification if you want.

In Christ
Scylla

Now if there are any mistakes in this, it is entirely my fault for not paying attention and being distracted as my daughter likes attention. Sorry…
 
Although I personally believe in Purgatory I don’t think Catholics are required to accept it as a definite existing place. Perhaps Roman Catholics are but I don’t think the Eastern Catholic churches acknowledge it’s definite existence. They simply say it may or may not exist.
 
For a second let us redefine what we mean by fire. My analogy: Sin is an infection. Purgatory is like say putting peroxide on the infection (or better yet cauterising a wound). Yes, it may sting like hell, but ultimately it pays off in the end as the infection is removed. Now Jesus is the doctor he helps us heal from the infection without going to the cauterisation, but when our appointment is up, he’s got to get rid of the infection once and for all. Thats purgatory. The whole incarnation was Him arriving to infact help us rid ourselves of the infection.

Yes this is a very simple protrayal and like all analogies closer inspection tears it apart, but still thats the basic idea of Purgatory. Paraphrasing Scott Hahn it is the burning love of God removing all imprefections from us, before our souls can in effect be comfortable and happy within the Beatific Vision.
 
I thank you all for your answers. 👍

At this time, I just believe that we are cleansed from all sin in this life by the Blood of Jesus. Purgatory is then not needed as far as I can see.
 
hoosierdaddy said:
I thank you all for your answers. 👍

At this time, I just believe that we are cleansed from all sin in this life by the Blood of Jesus. Purgatory is then not needed as far as I can see.
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So you consider yourself cleansed from all sin at this moment? All-holy and all-perfect and all-purified at this moment? Lacking all sin and all inclination to sin?
 
Yes you are cleansed but that cleansing doesn’t come with out the pain of releasing the chains you are wearing. There is a perticular icon I heard about, that has the image of Jesus coming over to Adam and Eve to release their chains from them. Yet in their eyes you could see a certian reluctance to relinquish their chains because they were used to them and were in a sense comfortable in them. To be released meant a whole unknown (which by human nature, is a pretty scary thing). So life is easing you out of you desires for chains, and hopefully at the time you die you’ll tell Jesus you want them off. But your still going to be terrified to death as he unshackles them. This my freind is purgatory. The reason the saints get to slide by is because in their life time they got to the point that their like a kid on Christmas Eve, who is excited beyond beleif to get these chains off already.
 
hoosierdaddy said:
Prove it.
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Hoosier Daddy,

First, if I may ask, what is your standard of proof?

(1) Quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

(2) Quotes from C.S. Lewis and Dr. Charles Stanley supporting the doctrine?

(3) Verses from the Bible?

(4) A logical argument?

(5) A mathematical derivation?

There are some standards of proof (such as (5) above) by which you cannot prove to me that you exist.
  • Liberian
 
Well, actually even C.S. Lewis hints at the existance of Purgatory.
 
VociMike said:
So you consider yourself cleansed from all sin at this moment? All-holy and all-perfect and all-purified at this moment? Lacking all sin and all inclination to sin?
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I am cleansed from all sin. Every sin I will ever commit has already been forgiven. I don’t believe that I don’t sin as I would be lying. But I am cleansed from all sin. Nothing shall separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus my Lord. (Romans 8:39 paraphrase).
 
Oh…I’m not well versed in his works…I’ve only read a handful…I was thinking of his reference to pains after death for some one who has acheived heaven in the Screwtape Letters.
 
Praesidium said:
Yes you are cleansed but that cleansing doesn’t come with out the pain of releasing the chains you are wearing. There is a perticular icon I heard about, that has the image of Jesus coming over to Adam and Eve to release their chains from them. Yet in their eyes you could see a certian reluctance to relinquish their chains because they were used to them and were in a sense comfortable in them. To be released meant a whole unknown (which by human nature, is a pretty scary thing). So life is easing you out of you desires for chains, and hopefully at the time you die you’ll tell Jesus you want them off. But your still going to be terrified to death as he unshackles them. This my freind is purgatory. The reason the saints get to slide by is because in their life time they got to the point that their like a kid on Christmas Eve, who is excited beyond beleif to get these chains off already.
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I appreciate the effort you made. I just don’t agree with you. What you seem to be describing is sanctification which is what is happening all throughout our life. After we die, we are either just or unjust, holy or unholy. We remain in the state we were in before we died. This is Scripture but please forgive me as I don’t have my concordance around and I don’t claim to be a Jack Van Impe. I do promise to find the verse though.
 
hoosierdaddy said:
I am cleansed from all sin. Every sin I will ever commit has already been forgiven. I don’t believe that I don’t sin as I would be lying. But I am cleansed from all sin. Nothing shall separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus my Lord. (Romans 8:39 paraphrase).
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OK then, let’s just talk about the inclination to sin. You now have an inclination to sin. Will you have an inclination to sin in heaven?

The issue here is not about forgiveness, BTW.
 
Liberian said:
Hoosier Daddy,

First, if I may ask, what is your standard of proof?

(1) Quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

(2) Quotes from C.S. Lewis and Dr. Charles Stanley supporting the doctrine?

(3) Verses from the Bible?

(4) A logical argument?

(5) A mathematical derivation?

There are some standards of proof (such as (5) above) by which you cannot prove to me that you exist.
  • Liberian
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That’s funny. You may want to play little philosophical games but what would be the point? If I can’t prove that I exist then you can’t prove anything either. You couldn’t prove even one of the many Catholic doctrines yourself.

What is my standard? Numbers 3 and 4, however number 4 must correlate with Scripture. It must reasonably relate to Scripture.

BTW, I really suck at math. I would not be particularly happy if you involved math. lol
 
VociMike said:
OK then, let’s just talk about the inclination to sin. You now have an inclination to sin. Will you have an inclination to sin in heaven?

The issue here is not about forgiveness, BTW.
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No, none of us will have the inclination to sin in heaven. Here on earth is a different story though.
 
C.S. Lewis info on purgatory:

Lewis believed in prayers for the dead. In Letters to Malcolm, he wrote, “Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter men. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden” (p. 109). He believed in purgatory. In Letters to Malcolm, he wrote” “I believe in Purgatory. … The right view returns magnificently in Newman’s Dream. There if I remember rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer ‘with its darkness to affront that light’. … Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they?” (pp. 110-111). Lewis confessed his sins regularly to a priest and was given the Catholic sacrament of last rites on July 16, 1963 (Roger Lancelyn Green and Walter Hooper, C.S. Lewis: A Biography, 1974, pp. 198, 301).
 
hoosierdaddy said:
I am cleansed from all sin. Every sin I will ever commit has already been forgiven. I don’t believe that I don’t sin as I would be lying. But I am cleansed from all sin. Nothing shall separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus my Lord. (Romans 8:39 paraphrase).
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So then you believe that even if you were to kill many human beings, take the Lords name in Vain and break any and all of the Commandments that you are still clean enough to stand before God? Or would you then say that you weren’t saved in the first place.

Our God is a just God. He forgives us if we ask that forgiveness. He is fair with His punishment. Purgatory is a time to wash our dirty robes to be able to stand before God.

Again I ask, why you are on these forums? You don’t seem to want to learn just to argue and prove us (Catholics) wrong. You are posting at such a great rate that it has made me wonder if you even have time to consider what we are writing. I will pray for you that your heart will soften so you can take the time to learn and listen.
 
More C.S. Lewis on Purgatory:

Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would in not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleaned first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know’ - ‘Even so, sir.’

I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don’t think the suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.

My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist’s chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am ‘coming round’,’ a voice will say, ‘Rinse your mouth out ith this.’ This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But . . . it will [not] be disgusting and unhallowed."
  • C.S. Lewis, Letters To Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, chapter 20, paragraphs 7-10, pages 108-109
 
KathleenElsie said:
So then you believe that even if you were to kill many human beings, take the Lords name in Vain and break any and all of the Commandments that you are still clean enough to stand before God? Or would you then say that you weren’t saved in the first place.

Our God is a just God. He forgives us if we ask that forgiveness. He is fair with His punishment. Purgatory is a time to wash our dirty robes to be able to stand before God.

Again I ask, why you are on these forums? You don’t seem to want to learn just to argue and prove us (Catholics) wrong. You are posting at such a great rate that it has made me wonder if you even have time to consider what we are writing. I will pray for you that your heart will soften so you can take the time to learn and listen.
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Does the Blood of Jesus Christ cleanse from all sin or not? If not, are you ready to say He lied?

Our God is a just God. He showers mercy and grace upon us for His Son’s sake. He poured out the wrath that we deserved upon His Son who did not deserve it.

I am doing a good job of trying to have rational discussions. Please do not provoke me or you will just be added to the ignore list. I take the time to learn and listen. However if someone fights with me or attacks me I tend to get angry. This causes a multitude of posts; not that posting a lot is a sin. Is it?
 
Damascus said:
Purgatory
1 Corinthians 3:14-15

14- If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15- If it is burned up, he will suffer loss, he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames
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You don’t believe this and your church doesn’t teach that this has anything to do with purgatory… This is the day of judgement…
 
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