Purgatory

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mommyof4 said:
We would do well to remember that Scripture speaks of more than just heaven and hell. In 1 Peter 3.19, Peter refers to “Limbo of the Fathers,” the abode of the just. This shows that another state other than heaven and hell is not unbiblical. Some will argue that Scripture only speaks of heaven and hell. This is incorrect as we see in 1 Peter; Scripture speaks of another place. The question arises is there, or could there be a fourth place.

Purgatory is not an anti-biblical doctrine; it is not unreasonable. It is a doctrine of comfort and mercy. Nor is Purgatory a late invention of the Church, as many Protestants claim. Evidence for belief is purgatory goes back to Judaism herself with the Maccabees. The earliest Christians believed in this state. As stated earlier, it is not till the Reformation that we find the first denial of purgatory. Scripture commands us to “keep the traditions” that has been handed down to us (2 Th 2.15). If we are to be faithful to the Scripture, then acceptance of purgatory follows since, as St. Augustine shows, purgatory is part of that “tradition.”
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Hello friend. Remember that 1Pet.3:19 also mentions that Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison who were formerly disobedient. It also mentions Noah. I don’t think we can use this verse to support the doctrine of purgatory because it has to do with disobedient people at the time of Noah. You guys don’t believe purgatory to be punishment which it would have to be (in my understanding), if we were to use this verse. I hope I am getting my point across.
 
**Most of us are not perfect and free from sin in this life. Our sanctification is the mechanism for making us perfect. **

Pax, I agree with your post. I just wanted to comment on this part.

I agree with you completely. I already said something to this effect. God has declared us to be perfect but it takes our whole lifetime of sanctification to work it out. This is because we aren’t free from sin in this life. I do agree with you.👍
 
VociMike said:
Ahh, so then there is a fundamental change in our nature between earth and heaven. We’re 99% of the way there. 🙂

What would you call that fundamental changing of our nature?
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Why death of course brother. 👍
 
hoosierdaddy said:
Hello friend. Remember that 1Pet.3:19 also mentions that Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison who were formerly disobedient. It also mentions Noah. I don’t think we can use this verse to support the doctrine of purgatory because it has to do with disobedient people at the time of Noah. You guys don’t believe purgatory to be punishment which it would have to be (in my understanding), if we were to use this verse. I hope I am getting my point across.
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So then you acknowledge that there are more than just heaven and hell, right?

Doesn’t St. Paul speak of the 3rd heaven? (2nd Corinthians 12:2) I think we can safely say that we do not yet know all there is to know about the afterlife.

I see it this way…most everyone knows they have to wash up before dinner. Marriage supper of the Lamb anyone?
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
**So then you acknowledge that there are more than just heaven and hell, right?

Doesn’t St. Paul speak of the 3rd heaven? (2nd Corinthians 12:2) I think we can safely say that we do not yet know all there is to know about the afterlife.

I see it this way…most everyone knows they have to wash up before dinner. Marriage supper of the Lamb anyone?
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.**

No, I do just believe in heaven and hell. I believe the prison spoken of here is hell. I believe the 3rd heaven is just another level of heaven. We do not know all there is to know about the afterlife, that’s for sure. Scripture says that no eye has seen and no ear has heard the things that God has prepared for those that love Him. This causes me to reject purgatory though as it is not something anyone would look forward to, right?

I agree. We have to wash up before getting to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. But I believe that we’ve already done this at the moment of salvation. I don’t disagree with you on the “washing up” concept. I just disagree about the timing of doing so.
 
hoosierdaddy said:
Why death of course brother. 👍
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So…what happens to any unconfessed sins you carry into eternity?

You do believe in confessing your sins to God when you fall, right?

What if you die having failed to confess some sins?
Pax tecum,
 
VociMike said:
So God has nothing to do with this fundamental change in our nature. It’s just the physical act of dying? Oh, and how does that apply to people who end up in hell?
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Of course He does. He dealt with it at the cross. Throughout our lives we are being sanctified. At the moment of death we are present with the Lord and so we will ever be with Him. And we will be perfect.

I don’t know what you mean about the people who end up in hell though. According to Scripture they remain in their sins.
 
Church_Militant said:
So…what happens to any unconfessed sins you carry into eternity?

You do believe in confessing your sins to God when you fall, right?

What if you die having failed to confess some sins?
Pax tecum,
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The unconfessed sins are removed from you as far as the east is from the west. Unconfessed sins are covered under the confessed sins. When you confess your sins God is faithful to forgive us our sins (all of them) and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It is impossible to know every sin in order to confess every sin. Our hearts are wicked and we cannot know them. God knows our hearts better than we do.

Yes, I confess my sins to God when I fall. It is not for the purpose of getting saved again though. It is to restore fellowship between us.

If I die having failed to confess some of my sins I would be just like everyone else in heaven. Being a guy who likes to stand out, this could be hell for me eh? 😦
 
hoosierdaddy said:
Of course He does. He dealt with it at the cross. Throughout our lives we are being sanctified. At the moment of death we are present with the Lord and so we will ever be with Him. And we will be perfect.
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So God brings about a fundamental change in our nature upon our death, removing our inclination to sin and making us perfect. That’s purgatory.
I don’t know what you mean about the people who end up in hell though. According to Scripture they remain in their sins.
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Right, so death alone does not result in the removal of the inclination to sin. It is not the act of death which does this, but the selective action of God.
 
hoosierdaddy said:
Of course He does. He dealt with it at the cross. Throughout our lives we are being sanctified. At the moment of death we are present with the Lord and so we will ever be with Him. And we will be perfect.
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Okay then…can you explain to me what Matthew 25:31-46 means when Our Lord Himself speaks of the final judgement being about things we either have or have not done?

Matthew 7:12-27 would also speak to this issue.

If we must be perfect even as Our Father in heaven is perfect, then it seems simple to ask. Are you perfect? (Matthew 5:48) Will you ever be perfect in order that you can merit heaven? (Rhetorical question…we’ll agree that we will not), but if we are commanded to be perfect like God and cannot be, then how is that final perfection accomplished? If we cannot be perfect, is God then going to condemn even believers who die in faith and yet bear some unconfessed sin on their souls? Bear in mind that the Word of God commands us to confess our sins. (1st John 1:9 and James 5:16)
Pax tecum,
 
I’ll try tomorrow guys. I don’t know everything and I have to get the hang of the quote function. I do believe that the transformation is not purgatory though. It is death.
 
hoosierdaddy said:
The unconfessed sins are removed from you as far as the east is from the west. Unconfessed sins are covered under the confessed sins.
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But then why are we commanded to confess sins if it is not necessary? The way you put it makes it seem that God has commanded something that is not really necessary, and that just doesn’t seem like the God I find in my Bible. This makes no sense to me.
When you confess your sins God is faithful to forgive us our sins (all of them)
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and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It is impossible to know every sin in order to confess every sin.If God is faithful to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (which according to 1st John 1:9 is a seperate function of God’s grace.) could this not be the function of His grace in Purgatory?

As for the other …There is nothing in that verse that says that unconfessed sins are forgiven, in fact, I don’t see where the context of 1st John 1 supports what you have said.
Our hearts are wicked and we cannot know them. God knows our hearts better than we do.
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The verse you are thinking of reads as follows.“9 The heart is perverse above all things, and unsearchable, who can know it? 10 I am the Lord who search the heart and prove the reins: who give to every one according to his way, and according to the fruit of his devices.” (Jeremiah 17), but I would point out that part of the function of the Holy Spirit is to convict us of sins when we have committed them. Are you now saying the perfect spirit of God cannot do His job within a believer? I think I’d have to disagree with that HD.
Yes, I confess my sins to God when I fall. It is not for the purpose of getting saved again though. It is to restore fellowship between us.
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Ah, but isn’t any break in fellowship with God enough to condemn us to hell? Your theology is confusing to me, because it does not seem to follow what I have read in my Bible.
If I die having failed to confess some of my sins I would be just like everyone else in heaven. Being a guy who likes to stand out, this could be hell for me eh? 😦
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:hmmm: Interesting.
Pax tecum,
 
hoosierdaddy,

You need to establish how death, in itself, transforms us to the “souls of just men made perfect.” Please do this by way of scripture. We have shown you in 1 Cor 3:12-15 the mechanism of purgatory. This passage clearly refers to what happens to the Christian after death, and it makes it clear that a man’s soul is still saved but “as through fire.”

Purgatory seems to be the most logical outcome of what scripture has to say.

You also commented that the “spirits in prison” referenced in 1Peter 3:18-20 and in Eph 4:8-10 is speaking of those in hell. Please be advised that this is only partially consistent with the scriptures. Hades contained both the just and the unjust prior to the resurrection. The just are said to have been in a place of comfort known as the “bosom of Abraham” whereas the unjust were in a place of torment. See the story of Lazarus and the rich man for an illustration of this. The just could not enter heaven until after the resurrection. Jesus preached to all of those in hades. Eph 4:8-10 helps to clarify this when it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”

Clearly, there is a third state other than heaven and the hell reserved for the damned. Purgatory is simply the third state of final sanctification before entering heaven. This seems obvious to me based on scripture even though it is not explicity described. Needless to say, there is much that we do not know about the after life, for “…no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,”

I hope this helps.
 
hoosierdaddy said:
But this begs the question:

Did God reveal purgatory? My belief is no, He did not.
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Hoosier,

God revealed Purgatory in the Old Testament. The following quote is from 2 Maccabbees12:39-46 and shows prayers for the dead who have sinned so that their sins might be forgiven and that they may reach heaven. Why would prayers for the dead be needed if they did not reside in a place where their sins can be purged? This is Purgatory, a place in between Heaven and H__ where souls can be purified and sanctified so they can be raised to heaven at the time of Judgement.

39
On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs.
40
But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.
41
They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.
42
7 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43
He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
44
for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
45
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46
Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

I hope this helps you. When I converted from Protestantism to Catholicism 7 years ago, My advisor (a Deacon) used this scriptural passage as the primary defense of Purgatory, with the Corinthians passage as the secondary defense.
 
Friends,
I think what this question of Purgatory comes down to is, does our Lord cleanse all our sins at death, even those I don’t ask forgiveness for in life?

I humbly submit that in my experience, deep down, there are sins we all really like, we nurture them, protect them, and would miss them if we purged them. I mean minor sins of pride, envy, forgiveness not fully given or genuinely asked, and many others. These are a part of us, a part that must be eradicated to be fully in the presence of God.

Hopefully, thru the remainder of our lives, we continue to reject these parts of us, to perfect ourselves thru the mercy and love of Jesus, but at death, if I harbor any of these self protected faults, it is I who must ask forgiveness one last time, to be purged of the remaining guilt and sin to enter heaven. Jesus demands that I ask forgiveness and purge these sins if I am to be as a son of God in Heaven.

To be forgiven, we must ask for forgiveness, my Mom taught me this as a tyke, and God demands no less. After death, Purgatory will be my only means to ask for forgiveness for any sin I have yet to have forgiven. Without Purgatory, I might be lost as nothing imperfect may enter heaven and I am far from perfect. Purgatory is a great gift of God’s mercy, His final show of Love for us and an expression of His desire that we be with Him in heaven.

Praise be our Lord Jesus Christ because it is through his death that Purgatory and the forgiveness of sin became possible!
 
Eric_Bender said:
Hoosier,

God revealed Purgatory in the Old Testament. The following quote is from 2 Maccabbees12:39-46 and shows prayers for the dead who have sinned so that their sins might be forgiven and that they may reach heaven. Why would prayers for the dead be needed if they did not reside in a place where their sins can be purged? This is Purgatory, a place in between Heaven and H__ where souls can be purified and sanctified so they can be raised to heaven at the time of Judgement.

39
On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs.
40
But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.
41
They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.
42
7 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43
He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
44
for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
45
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46
Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

I hope this helps you. When I converted from Protestantism to Catholicism 7 years ago, My advisor (a Deacon) used this scriptural passage as the primary defense of Purgatory, with the Corinthians passage as the secondary defense.
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Hoosier’s Bible doesn’t contain 2 Maccabbees. After 1500 years, the “Reformers” took seven books out of the Bible. Luther would have taken out James and Revelation, too, if he could have gotten away with it.

That’s part of the challenge.
 
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