Purgatory

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Shame every single Christian for 1500 years disagrees with you, isn’t it? Those books were removed by Luther because they supported Catholic doctrine - he did not reject Catholic doctrine because those books were not there. It is quite the other way around.

But, your post seems to imply that if that book WERE Scripture, then the doctrine would stand and you’d believe it.

So . . . . every Catholic here now knows what the argument is 🙂
Look what we have here. Mocking. You don’t get an answer. Have a good night. Well, you get one. The church may not have been wrong for 1500 years. But they were wrong at the time of the Reformation. Hence the reason Luther tried to reform it. But don’t let a thing called facts get in the way…
 
Did you go to any of the sites that the previous posters gave you? If not, go, look, read, and then come back and we’ll have a discussion.
Not yet. I’ve been forced to defend myself from those who wish to just mock me or even worse, call me a heretic.
 
Then take a break, read, calm down, pray, and then come back.🙂

I’m not trying to pick on you or anything, and I truely mean this gently, but you may want to watch your writing tone. You are coming accross as someone who just wants to pick a fight, and not someone who really is interested in learning about our faith or our beliefs.

God Bless,🙂
Mommyof4
 
This coming from a guy who has added to God’s Word.
Pardon?

The canon of the books in the Bible was compiled from extant books within the first three centuries of Christianity. The Catholic Church decided which books were in there, adn which were not.

For 1500 years, the seven deuterocanonical books were part of sacred scripture. It was then that Martin Luther removed them.

This is a simple historical fact. The earliest Bibles have these texts in them. The first Church was the Catholic Church and there are no other contenders for that.

Given the fact that the seven deuterocanonical books were accepted by the Jews of Jesus’ time and only rejected after His death, and were part of the canon of scripture for 1500 years, I fail to see how the Catholic Church can possibly have added to Scripture! These books always were scripture, and always will be.
The Church did not write and compile the Bible. The Apostles wrote the New Testament.
And the Apostles were Catholic. They were members of the true Church founded by Jesus Christ and to various Churches of which St. Paul wrote his letters. Saint Paul was Catholic - he worked with St. Peter the first Pope, head of the Apostles and Bishop of Rome.
It is the Catholic church who protested the reformation because they didn’t want to be held accountable and brought back to the basics.
We protested the reformation because it was a direct afront to what Jesus Christ taught - “I pray that they may all be one.”
If it doesn’t line up with Scripture I will say it is non-Scriptural.
The doctrine of Purgatory is scriptural - but you have rejected whole sections of scripture.
You should stop complaining about what I’d say and focus on posting something that is Scriptural. The right and authority? Then how come I am commanded to search the Scriptures to see whether what I am being told is true? Can you answer that?
Of course I can - being commanded to compare what you are taught with Scripture does not mean that you are allowed to interpret Scripture against Church teaching. Consider 1 Tim 3:15 - interpret that.
How come I am commanded to study the Word and to rightly divide it?
Study, not interpret. You are not allowed to make up your own dogmas.
Maybe you should obey Scripture instead of fighting against someone who is simply stating the truth.
Maybe you should take a long hard look at the fact that you are saying that every Christian for 1500 years is wrong, and that your modern interpretations are right.

Don’t you think Jesus and the Holy Spirit would have had this so-called Truth of yours appear long before then? Why let 1500 years of Christianity wallow in what you call falsehood?

And if you suggest that there was a small, select group of Christians who didn’t adhere to Rome and were the true remnant and that is what you are, rather than an offshoot of Luther’s heresy, I’ll just laugh. There is no historical evidence for that whatsoever, but I have heard people say it.

I think, alas, that you are never going to accept the truth - because you are poisoned against the faith by the modern, Protestant trend of selfishness. You will not submit to the authority of anything - you have to define your own truth.

Your opening post was combatative - you ask us to “prove it”. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows that proving anything is impossible - you disprove the null. It is a matter of proving within certain preconceptions. Other posters asked you - and I have asked you - to provide intra-Biblical evidence for the doctrine of sola scriptura. You have yet to do so, despite claiming it is there.
 
That’s not the topic of the thread.
Oh but it is, if you are expecting to be shown from the Bible alone. 😃
Why is it ok for you to hijack a thread but when I use your tactic it’s a “mortal” sin?
A. I would leave it to the Moderator to decide if a thread is being hijacked, and B. Who said it’s a mortal sin? 😃
Stick to the topic.
I intend to. But if the basis of the proof you are asking for is to be the Bible alone, is it unreasonable to expect you to establish the veracity of the disputed doctrine of Sola Scriptura? For me to try to prove something using a false system of measurement would be pretty stupid of me, would it not? :whacky:
BTW, it’s taught all through the Bible. Maybe if you’d look hard enough instead of refusing the truth, you’d find it.
If something as supposedly foundational as Sola Scriptura is to be “taught all through the Bible,” it should be a breeze to give me one or two examples.😃
Hee, hee! Hee, hee! 😃
 
I will deal with all of your post later on. However, I do submit to authority. That being the Scriptures. If any church leader is teaching contrary to Scripture he is NOT to be submitted to. It’s as simple as that.

My opening post was not combattive and even if it were, so what? Have you seen the way people were towards me? Who started mocking who on this thread?

All I did was say “prove it”. And you know what? I’ll say it again. Prove it.
 
All I did was say “prove it”. And you know what? I’ll say it again. Prove it.
And I tell you that it is impossible to prove anything 🙂 That is the foundation of science. What we can do is offer evidence that supports something, or prove that something is NOT.

Again - where are these book, chapter and verse references for sola scriptura? You have been very, very quiet on this.
 
Dear Hoosierdaddy,

thanks for being understanding. The object of my questions/comments were tied into knowing and respecting the fact that you would like to see it in Scripture and likely not want to see it in what you consider to be one of the 7books that are not accepted as inspired by the Protestant faiths.
I did not quote scripture from that controversial section of our Bible, and was hoping you would be satisfyed with Corinthians. Okay, I see you are not and I like your explanation why you dont like it. It was very detailed and clear.

I do have a reason for asking what I do, and I hope its taken in good humor.

Is there a biblical reason to object to the idea of Purgatory? I am curious, not kidding now. And, I am curious why its an objectionable thought., this way I might be better able to offer an other way of looking at it, hopefully to your satisfaction. 🙂
 
Dear Hoosierdaddy,

thanks for being understanding. The object of my questions/comments were tied into knowing and respecting the fact that you would like to see it in Scripture and likely not want to see it in what you consider to be one of the 7books that are not accepted as inspired by the Protestant faiths.
I did not quote scripture from that controversial section of our Bible, and was hoping you would be satisfyed with Corinthians. Okay, I see you are not and I like your explanation why you dont like it. It was very detailed and clear.

I do have a reason for asking what I do, and I hope its taken in good humor.

Is there a biblical reason to object to the idea of Purgatory? I am curious, not kidding now. And, I am curious why its an objectionable thought., this way I might be better able to offer an other way of looking at it, hopefully to your satisfaction. 🙂
Hey there, thank you. I will keep my posts short from now on. I wasn’t “dissatisified” with you using Corinthians. I just tried to explain why I disagree with your interpretation of it.

I can’t agree with purgatory because it seems like a slap in the face to Jesus, like his death on the cross and his shed blood were not enough. I believe the Bible teaches that the cross and his blood were enough.
 
The church may not have been wrong for 1500 years.
So you say that she might have been right when she talked about Purgatory during those years? 🙂
Not yet. I’ve been forced to defend myself from those who wish to just mock me or even worse, call me a heretic.
No-one has called you a heretic - you are not a heretic as you are not Catholic. You are, however, a member of a heretical church.

The word “heretic” means a Catholic who refuses to believe in a revealed truth of the Church.
Psalm 119 could suggest it.
Oh, I call TROLL!!!

The longest Psalm and chapter in the Bible! The one which says SO MUCH! 🙂

Or, if he is working with a different numbering of the Psalms, it’s what we call 120 - which doesn’t say a single thing about any of the subjects we are discussing.

I am still waiting for a book, chapter and verse for sola scriptura. Although that is not the topic of this thread, so you will probably refuse.

Check the rest of the forum in about thirty seconds . . .
 
Not yet. I’ve been forced to defend myself from those who wish to just mock me or even worse, call me a heretic.
I usually try to avoid (name removed by moderator)utting on the Mary and Purgatory threads and just lurk because its fun to learn and watch the debates.

But, I’ve noticed a pattern where you seem to be encouraging disrespect to youself. I’ve read at least a couple of threads where you called posters different names which only seemed to flame people up. In a way, I guess you could say you were doing some mocking yourself.

Respect begets respect.
 
I have just deleted over 20 posts from this thread because they either made remarks that lacked charity or were totally off-topic.

Either deal with the man’s topic or don’t post on this thread. All of you are aware of the Forum Rules that require all posts to be on topic.

This should be the last intervention I have to do on this thread.
MF
 
Thank you Michael.

Can I ask now, why do you guys want to believe in purgatory? I don’t believe it’s explicitly spelled out in Scripture so you must be basing it on Tradition. Why did the Catholic church want to believe it?

I would think we would all rejoice in the truth; that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That is a wonderful thing to look forward to. Jesus died to forgive our sins but He also died to destroy the bondage we were in, that being the fear of death. Why would I want to negate that and fear death all over again? This is what I’ll do if I believe I am going to go into fire. If I were to go into fire after this life I would know that I got it wrong and I am in the Lake of Fire and I am not coming out.

Thoughts?
 
Thank you Michael.

Can I ask now, why do you guys want to believe in purgatory? I don’t believe it’s explicitly spelled out in Scripture so you must be basing it on Tradition. Why did the Catholic church want to believe it?
You ask the wrong question. The correct question is, when God revealed the existence of Purgatory to the Church, was the Church supposed to accept that revelation or reject it?
I would think we would all rejoice in the truth; that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That is a wonderful thing to look forward to. Jesus died to forgive our sins but He also died to destroy the bondage we were in, that being the fear of death. Why would I want to negate that and fear death all over again? This is what I’ll do if I believe I am going to go into fire. If I were to go into fire after this life I would know that I got it wrong and I am in the Lake of Fire and I am not coming out.
Thoughts?
My thought is that you seem to have an extremely distorted view of what Purgatory is.

This leads again to the two questions I asked earlier.
  1. Are you perfect here and now?
  2. Will you be perfect in heaven?
 
But this begs the question:

Did God reveal purgatory? My belief is no, He did not.

I’m sorry I missed your questions.

a) Christ has declared me to be perfect but my lifetime will be spent working that out. This is known as sanctification;

and b) I will be perfect in heaven. Scary thought huh?:eek:
 
But this begs the question:

Did God reveal purgatory? My belief is no, He did not.

I’m sorry I missed your questions.

a) Christ has declared me to be perfect but my lifetime will be spent working that out. This is known as sanctification;

and b) I will be perfect in heaven. Scary thought huh?:eek:
Yes, but you may not be perfect at the moment when you die. Some purification, or purgation, may still be in order.
 
But this begs the question:

Did God reveal purgatory? My belief is no, He did not.
I understand that, but we believe He did, and so to ask us why we want to believe in purgatory makes about as much sense as asking us why we want to believe in hell. It’s not what we want, it’s what we believe has been revealed.
I’m sorry I missed your questions.
a) Christ has declared me to be perfect but my lifetime will be spent working that out. This is known as sanctification;
I take that to mean that you are not, objectively, perfect at this moment. Will you, objectively, be perfect the moment before your death?
and b) I will be perfect in heaven. Scary thought huh?:eek:
Glorious thought! 👍
 
Purgatory is not a place. It’s a state of being. We are all sinners. Since we know that nothing unclean can enter heaven (and sin is unclean) than there has to be some way for us to be made perfectly clean before we can enter heaven.

Purgatory does not in any way take away from Christ. Christ opened up heaven for us. Before He came, heaven was closed. Purgatory is on the way to heaven. It’s not a separate place.

Fire does not necessarily mean hell. Keep in mind that God’s love is an all-consuming fire.
 
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