Purgatory

po18guy

po18guy

Well-known member
Why not begin the conversation with one of the most misunderstood and disputed of Catholic doctrines?
1. It is only for the saved.
2. It is not a "place"
3. It is not a "second chance"
4. It is not permanent.
5. It is the very manifestation of God's love and mercy.
6. It is "biblical" for those who desire written proof.
 
Thank you for posting this, and getting a good conversation started.

One thing worth noting, is that even if someone (such as a Protestant) doesn't believe in purgatory, they still go there too, if they die with something less than mortal sin on their soul. I've heard that some Protestants implicitly believe in a type of "settling-up" (as one Lutheran put it to me), even if they don't call it "purgatory". And then there is the concept, held by some Orthodox, of "celestial toll houses", where demons accuse the newly-reposed soul of various species of sins, and angels (and the prayers and suffrages of the faithful in this life) refute these accusations and try to get the soul toward heaven. That would have to be something mystical or learned through some kind of private revelation, because it's nowhere in Scripture, nor, so far as I am aware, in any traditional teaching of the undivided Church of the first millennium.

Jews also believe (and I'm probably going to garble this) that when you die, your whole life is reviewed for you, bit by bit, and how you lived is compared with how you should have lived, and the knowledge of this creates a "burning" within you, similar to how you blush and become heated and flushed when you are highly embarrassed. This is supposed to last about a year (in terms of time on this side of eternity). Jews have the concept of yahrzeit, literally, "year's time", where the faithful are commemorated on the one-year anniversary of their death.
 
The pre-Christian thought of sacrificial offering and prayers for the dead bear witness that there is a process after death. That, "sins might be fully blotted out" of those who died a godly death, but yet having committed some sin. 2 Maccabees 12:39-46.
 
The concept of Purgatory both terrifies me and gives me hope at the same time. At my age, I am trying my hardest not to rack up any more mortal sin. I know that they can be absolved in the confessional, but that the temporal punishment must be dealt with in Purgatory. It's the unknown amount of time that this will take, to be purged, which frightens me. I wonder if we're cognizant in Purgatory as to how long we're going to be there. Would it be better to know, or to not know? Will we be aware of the passage of time there, and how close we're getting to our release? I guess only God knows. I worry about silly things like this though.
 
St.Cono said:
The concept of Purgatory both terrifies me and gives me hope at the same time. At my age, I am trying my hardest not to rack up any more mortal sin. I know that they can be absolved in the confessional, but that the temporal punishment must be dealt with in Purgatory. It's the unknown amount of time that this will take, to be purged, which frightens me. I wonder if we're cognizant in Purgatory as to how long we're going to be there. Would it be better to know, or to not know? Will we be aware of the passage of time there, and how close we're getting to our release? I guess only God knows. I worry about silly things like this though.
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When we receive a penance, we often risk dismissing it as frivolous, almost inconsequential. At best, we know part of our guilt; God knows fully. What we miss in our perception is that the light penance we receive is evidence - if not proof - of God's mercy. The foundation for this is the thought that, without God's mercy, we would long ago have been suffering in the flames we have earned. But yet, we are not! Each breath we take is a direct gift of love. The Lord brought us to life and sustains every moment of it. He is patient, will that no one perish.
Purgation is spiritual surgery, excising the tumor; the malignancy that we have brought upon ourselves. Yet, knowing that we have been judged worthy, and with absolute assurance that we shall soon enjoy eternal Beatitude, is not any level of pain almost inconsequential by comparison? Best to suffer s penance in the here and now, as God permits it within a framework which we can comprehend and relate to the temporal nature of our lives.
Prayer takes only so much time. Restitution takes only so much money. All penance is in time and that time will come to its end. We know when our obligation is fulfilled. That is the source of the hope we have. In contrast, Purgatory seems open-ended, undefined, nebulous. It may seem daunting, frightening, even horrific. Yet, we must always and everywhere be mindful that this very process, this very state, originates in God's infinite desire that we spend eternity with Him.
First, fear of death is conquered. After that, and fear of purification is pacified, such that purgation is desired.
 
"Remembering the Light" by Baptist Christian Rosemary Thornton tells of her temporary death experience. Her salacious husband completed suicide in their kitchen, in front of the dog. His previous indiscretions caught up with Rosemary as she required surgery. After said surgery, she began hemorrhaging, and bled out to the point of cardiac arrest.

According to her experience, her late husband is in "Restoration" for 10k earth years. The sun is expected to burn out then, so he's in Purgatory until the end of the world. I told her we can pray for him, but she said she can't. What she does is say, "I send you love". I told her, "That's prayer."

Rosemary is also known as the Sears Homes Lady. She has a separate website for "Remembering the Light". Just Google her name, and the videos will be listed.

Blessings,
Cloisters
 
Cloisters said:
"Remembering the Light" by Baptist Christian Rosemary Thornton tells of her temporary death experience. Her salacious husband completed suicide in their kitchen, in front of the dog. His previous indiscretions caught up with Rosemary as she required surgery. After said surgery, she began hemorrhaging, and bled out to the point of cardiac arrest.

According to her experience, her late husband is in "Restoration" for 10k earth years. The sun is expected to burn out then, so he's in Purgatory until the end of the world. I told her we can pray for him, but she said she can't. What she does is say, "I send you love". I told her, "That's prayer."

Rosemary is also known as the Sears Homes Lady. She has a separate website for "Remembering the Light". Just Google her name, and the videos will be listed.

Blessings,
Cloisters
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I hate to have to bring this into it, but the sun is going to last a whole lot longer than ten thousand years, according to science.

But it is interesting that a Baptist would admit of a purification after death. Their usual claim is that a person goes immediately to heaven after death, no kind of purification needed, so long as they've accepted Jesus as their Lord and personal Savior.
 
One of the homeschooling moms asked another at co-op about someone getting out of Hell. I didn't want to get involved, though. We were the only Catholics in a sea of Protestants.

10k years is what I've always heard.
 
Cloisters said:
One of the homeschooling moms asked another at co-op about someone getting out of Hell. I didn't want to get involved, though. We were the only Catholics in a sea of Protestants.

10k years is what I've always heard.
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Do you mean 10K years is what you've heard about purgatory, or about the sun burning out?

According to science, the sun will run out of hydrogen in about 5 billion years, but that is the same science that posits the age of the earth at 4.5 billion years. Young earth creationists would, of course, challenge both. I am not a young earth creationist (though I can't say it's impossible, God can do anything), but neither do I blindly accept what modern scientists say, first of all, they're always changing their minds and projecting new time frames.

Neither do I believe in evolution that just spontaneously happened and unfolded over a time frame of 3 to 4 billion years. I find it far easier to believe in an intelligent designer, a "God of the gaps". Evolution takes more faith to believe in than creation does. If you've ever looked at even the simplest cell, it's too complicated to have assembled itself together, it had an intelligent creator.
 
St.Cono said:
The concept of Purgatory both terrifies me and gives me hope at the same time. At my age, I am trying my hardest not to rack up any more mortal sin. I know that they can be absolved in the confessional, but that the temporal punishment must be dealt with in Purgatory. It's the unknown amount of time that this will take, to be purged, which frightens me. I wonder if we're cognizant in Purgatory as to how long we're going to be there. Would it be better to know, or to not know? Will we be aware of the passage of time there, and how close we're getting to our release? I guess only God knows. I worry about silly things like this though.
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well, it isn't really silly. I still have a fear of going to Hell, not because I'm in mortal sin bc I gave that up many many years ago, but just bc Jesus said that Few find the narrow way. . and that many will attempt to enter Heaven but will not be able to. I still feel guilt about past sins, even though I've confessed them and expiated them to some extent. Plus, the Accuser of the Brethren is always there making sure you remember all your sins... Dirtbag! As they say, when he reminds you of your past, you can remind him of his future. In Revelation it says that eventually Satan and the demons will be tormented just like the ones they helped to damn. . and for equally as long a time.
 
Cloisters said:
One of the homeschooling moms asked another at co-op about someone getting out of Hell. I didn't want to get involved, though. We were the only Catholics in a sea of Protestants.

10k years is what I've always heard.
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Jesus said Hell is forever.. Mt 25:31-46
 
I was at this one forum months ago where something like 90% of posters were Protestant or in any case anti-Catholic. I got all kinds of arguments about how there is no Purgatory. But I've been spending time at You Tube lately and I found these videos about people who say they died, had some medical emergency (which of course is documented) and went to either Hell or some place that was more like Heaven. BTw don't believe people who say they've gone straight to Heaven, yet never mentioned being Judged (seeing his life pass b4 him and then Jesus pronouncing sentence). But anyway, I found videos where people went directly into Hell and ... same thing: no Judgment. So I think God wanted to show these people Hell b4 they really did end up there forever. That sounds like the merciful loving God I've always... OK not always but anyway... believed in. Well, this one video was of a Catholic priest who died and went to all 3 places, and the implication in that video was that he was on his way to Heaven or at least not eternal Hell. So anyway, if anyone ever asks you about proof of Purgatory, the video at YT is called Priest Near-death Experience of Hell, Heaven and Purgatory.
 
antiSatan5 said:
well, it isn't really silly. I still have a fear of going to Hell, not because I'm in mortal sin bc I gave that up many many years ago, but just bc Jesus said that Few find the narrow way. . and that many will attempt to enter Heaven but will not be able to. I still feel guilt about past sins, even though I've confessed them and expiated them to some extent. Plus, the Accuser of the Brethren is always there making sure you remember all your sins... Dirtbag! As they say, when he reminds you of your past, you can remind him of his future. In Revelation it says that eventually Satan and the demons will be tormented just like the ones they helped to damn. . and for equally as long a time.
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I recommend that you find a good priest, one who is faithful to all of the traditional teachings of the Church, and tell him what you describe here. He will almost certainly recommend that you not spend so much time thinking about your past sins. They are forgiven, they are gone. You don't seem quite to check the boxes for scrupulosity, but I would talk to a priest anyway. Quit worrying.

I also recommend that you read a good, sensible, approachable traditional catechism. The one I like best, and the one we are presently using in our homeschool religion class, is Life In Christ (1958 edition). It was actually somewhat liberal for its time. Another good source is Bishop Morrow's My Catholic Faith. Both are available for purchase online (you'll have to get LIC used), as well as Internet Archive.

https://archive.org/details/lifeinchristinst00kill

https://archive.org/details/B-001-014-327
 
HomeschoolDad said:
I recommend that you find a good priest, one who is faithful to all of the traditional teachings of the Church, and tell him what you describe here. He will almost certainly recommend that you not spend so much time thinking about your past sins. They are forgiven, they are gone. You don't seem quite to check the boxes for scrupulosity, but I would talk to a priest anyway. Quit worrying.

I also recommend that you read a good, sensible, approachable traditional catechism. The one I like best, and the one we are presently using in our homeschool religion class, is Life In Christ (1958 edition). It was actually somewhat liberal for its time. Another good source is Bishop Morrow's My Catholic Faith. Both are available for purchase online (you'll have to get LIC used), as well as Internet Archive.

https://archive.org/details/lifeinchristinst00kill

https://archive.org/details/B-001-014-327
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What is LIC?

Well, it's not the easiest thing in the world to find a "good priest." I've had a few in my life but I now live in a different area. Also.. .hate to sound like a protestant here, but I always try to go directly to God because obviously he already knows every nook and cranny of my heart/mind/soul. If I go to some priest and he is like the argumentative ones I've had in the past (I could tell u some stories), well, I will go away from the confessional probably feeling worse than I did b4 I got there.. it has happened b4. This is one reason I say that the Sedevacantists have a point (or 2 or 3 or...). But of course the Sedes I have had interaction w/ don't focus on rude priests so much as how the NO Church differs from the Traditional one. I always got the feeling the Sede I was interacting with (most) was totally UN-interested in my experiences in the Catholic Church... All he himself wanted to focus on was the academics/theology involved in any give conversation. And yet... Don't we all know this (following)?

Don't we all know that human beings act/react based very much on their experiences in life and that those experiences take precedence over academics 90% (or whatever percent) of the time? There's that saying Once burnt, twice shy.... and so on. I mean, when people go to Church, they should find love there, not condemnation or what comes across as that..

(still wondering what LIC is)
 
antiSatan5 said:
What is LIC?

Well, it's not the easiest thing in the world to find a "good priest." I've had a few in my life but I now live in a different area. Also.. .hate to sound like a protestant here, but I always try to go directly to God because obviously he already knows every nook and cranny of my heart/mind/soul. If I go to some priest and he is like the argumentative ones I've had in the past (I could tell u some stories), well, I will go away from the confessional probably feeling worse than I did b4 I got there.. it has happened b4. This is one reason I say that the Sedevacantists have a point (or 2 or 3 or...). But of course the Sedes I have had interaction w/ don't focus on rude priests so much as how the NO Church differs from the Traditional one. I always got the feeling the Sede I was interacting with (most) was totally UN-interested in my experiences in the Catholic Church... All he himself wanted to focus on was the academics/theology involved in any give conversation. And yet... Don't we all know this (following)?

Don't we all know that human beings act/react based very much on their experiences in life and that those experiences take precedence over academics 90% (or whatever percent) of the time? There's that saying Once burnt, twice shy.... and so on. I mean, when people go to Church, they should find love there, not condemnation or what comes across as that..

(still wondering what LIC is)
Click to expand...

LIC = Life in Christ (the book).

Priests who hear confessions are imperfect human beings just like anyone else. You are still bound by the canons of the Church to go to confession once a year. People should go much oftener than that, but once a year is the bare minimum.

One other thing, confessions need to be brief and focused on your sins and only your sins. They are not counseling sessions. The priest does not need to hear details unless they fundamentally change the nature of your sin --- for instance, stealing money out of the church collection basket is worse than stealing the same amount of money out of a layman's wallet, or slapping a terminal cancer patient in their sickbed would be worse than slapping someone on a subway train (I use florid examples to make the point).

Just go, confess your sins, and don't spend a whole lot of time talking about them. Priests are normally not difficult when a confession is made that way.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
LIC = Life in Christ (the book).

Priests who hear confessions are imperfect human beings just like anyone else. You are still bound by the canons of the Church to go to confession once a year. People should go much oftener than that, but once a year is the bare minimum.

One other thing, confessions need to be brief and focused on your sins and only your sins. They are not counseling sessions. The priest does not need to hear details unless they fundamentally change the nature of your sin --- for instance, stealing money out of the church collection basket is worse than stealing the same amount of money out of a layman's wallet, or slapping a terminal cancer patient in their sickbed would be worse than slapping someone on a subway train (I use florid examples to make the point).

Just go, confess your sins, and don't spend a whole lot of time talking about them. Priests are normally not difficult when a confession is made that way.
Click to expand...
well, you apparently you think I "just fell off the turnip truck" as they say. I've been around for some time and been Catholic all my life. I do know I'm supposed to go to confession once a year. I went about 6 months ago to a Sedevacantist priest. It was OK, there was no interrupting like I've had with NO priests, but he didn't give me much of a penance (can't even remember what it was off the top of my head). Also, I knew a long time ago that we aren't supposed to see priests as counselors. I said priests I had gone to were rude, not angry bc I mistook them for counselors... haven't done that in decades
 
antiSatan5 said:
well, you apparently you think I "just fell off the turnip truck" as they say. I've been around for some time and been Catholic all my life. I do know I'm supposed to go to confession once a year. I went about 6 months ago to a Sedevacantist priest. It was OK, there was no interrupting like I've had with NO priests, but he didn't give me much of a penance (can't even remember what it was off the top of my head). Also, I knew a long time ago that we aren't supposed to see priests as counselors. I said priests I had gone to were rude, not angry bc I mistook them for counselors... haven't done that in decades
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No, I don't think that, but many Catholics have to be given a "refresher course" in how to go to confession. Many modern Catholics simply don't know how. The priest is there to provide any help needed.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
LIC = Life in Christ (the book).

Priests who hear confessions are imperfect human beings just like anyone else. You are still bound by the canons of the Church to go to confession once a year. People should go much oftener than that, but once a year is the bare minimum.

One other thing, confessions need to be brief and focused on your sins and only your sins. They are not counseling sessions. The priest does not need to hear details unless they fundamentally change the nature of your sin --- for instance, stealing money out of the church collection basket is worse than stealing the same amount of money out of a layman's wallet, or slapping a terminal cancer patient in their sickbed would be worse than slapping someone on a subway train (I use florid examples to make the point).

Just go, confess your sins, and don't spend a whole lot of time talking about them. Priests are normally not difficult when a confession is made that way.
Click to expand...
well, you apparently you think I "just fell off the turnip truck" as they say. I've been around for some time and been Catholic all my life. I do know I'm supposed to go to confession once a year. I went about 6 months ago to a Sedevacantist priest. It was OK, there was no interrupting like I've had with NO priests, but he didn't give me much of a penance (can't even remember what it was off the top of my head). Also, I knew a long time ago that we aren't supposed to see priests as counselors. I said priests I had gone to were rude, not angry bc I mistook them for counselors...
 
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