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Philthy
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SherryLynn9
Guest
Wasn’t paradise the “good side” of purgatory? I’m thinking of Lazarus and the rich man. … that paradise was the bosom of Abraham?
Anyway, I was taught that when Jesus led captivity captive when he arose from the tomb.
**Ephesians 4 (Amplfied)
**1I THEREFORE, the prisoner for the Lord, appeal to and beg you to walk (lead a life) worthy of the [divine] calling to which you have been called [with behavior that is a credit to the summons to God’s service,
2Living as becomes you] with complete lowliness of mind (humility) and meekness (unselfishness, gentleness, mildness), with patience, bearing with one another and making allowances because you love one another.
3Be eager and strive earnestly to guard and keep the harmony and oneness of [and produced by] the Spirit in the binding power of peace.
4[There is] one body and one Spirit–just as there is also one hope [that belongs] to the calling you received–
5[There is] one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of [us] all, Who is above all [Sovereign over all], pervading all and [living] in [us] all.
7Yet grace (God’s unmerited favor) was given to each of us individually [not indiscriminately, but in different ways] in proportion to the measure of Christ’s [rich and bounteous] gift.
8Therefore it is said, When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive [He led a train of [http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=EPH%2B4&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=AMP&x=11&y=6#footnote_115870484_1”]1] vanquished foes] and He bestowed gifts on men.(1)
9[But He ascended?] Now what can this, He ascended, mean but that He had previously descended from [the heights of] heaven into [the depths], the lower parts of the earth?
10He Who descended is the [very] same as He Who also has ascended high above all the heavens, that He [His presence] might fill all things (the whole universe, from the lowest to the highest).
Matt 27****Amplfied)
50And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and gave up His spirit. 51And at once the curtain of the sanctuary of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52The tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep in death were raised [to life]; 53And coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Humbly in Christ,
Sherry
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Hi Lisa!
Those who so choose to pray for those who have died are not praying that they will be saved. All “in” purgatory are saved.
In Christ,
Nancy
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mercygate
Guest
. . . and our prayers hasten their release to Heaven. Purgatory in no way contradricts the once-and-for-all Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.Hi Lisa!
Those who so choose to pray for those who have died are not praying that they will be saved. All “in” purgatory are saved.
In Christ,
Nancy
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Catholic4aReasn
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Hi Homer!
I can see that you hold common misconception about what purgatory is and is not. Keep reading this thread. Perhaps they will be made clear for you. Disagree with purgatory if you like. Just make sure you’re disagreeing with what they Church really teaches about it. At the moment you’re disagreeing with a misconception.
In Christ,
Nancy
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Catholic4aReasn
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Hi Lisa!
There’s nothing to prove. The selling of indulgences was wrong, never Church teaching, and Luther was right to address the problem.
In Christ,
Nancy
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Catholic4aReasn
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carol marie:
This is how misconceptions starts and are perpetrated.
In Christ,
Nancy
People are entitled to their opinions, but not all opinions are equally true. The Church does not teach that purgatory is necessarily a place that takes time as we experience time. That is speculation and apparently a speculation that is believe by those at the website that was recommended to you.Is this for real? This sounds so wierd. Sounds like they are selling tickets out of purgatory - and it’s recomended that you buy in advance???
This is how misconceptions starts and are perpetrated.
In Christ,
Nancy
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Catholic4aReasn
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It’s not just about actual sin but also the inclination to sin. If we die with even the slightest bit of selfish love as part of who we are we aren’t perfectly conformed to Christ. We must be perfect to enter heaven. If Christ accomplished that in us on earth, great! If not, he will accomplish it in us after we die before we enter heaven.
Keep in mind, purgatory has NOTHING to do with anything we do. Some people mistakenly believe that those in purgatory are “working” their way out. That’s not correct. It’s all about God and his all consuming love. God’s love, his grace, does it all. We do nothing.
You and I agree on a couple of things. The blood of Christ cleanses us completely and perfectly before we enter heaven. You believe that he always and only does that during one’s lifetime on earth. I believe that he may do it that way, or he may do it after death. In any case, it’s all about Christ.
In Christ,
Nancy
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mercygate
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Dead? What is it for a Christian to be dead? These souls are more alive than we are because they are now see God as he is. To be in Purgatory means that you have been judged by God and determined worthy of purification so that you can enter Heaven. Rev. 21:22 “But nothing unclean shall enter it [the heavenly city], nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
Shakespearean aside: The older you get the better the doctrine of Purgatory looks!
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Catholic4aReasn
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Good point. You’re right, it is a purging. The pain comes in the cleansing of our souls, but it also comes in the delay of our being face to face with Christ.but the problem is (and please, anyone correct me if i’m wrong) the bible talks about punishment for sin being accomplished on the cross. it does not talk about “temporal punishment” (that i know of). now, it does talk about cleansing and our works being tested and some burning off and others passing through the fire. now, fire probably burns (i’ve heard that somewhere) so there is some pain involved but i don’t see where that pain is a punishment, but a blessing as it is caused by the cleansing of our souls so as to be prepared to enter into our Father’s house. that is why i have a problem with the punishment of purgatory because it is a purging not a punishment.
In Christ,
Nancy
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Catholic4aReasn
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carol marie:
In Christ,
Nancy
Amen! And if we did not fully cooperate with God’s grace in this life, to the point of being objectively perfect, Christ’s blood will be applied to us at that time, prior to entering heaven. We need to be really, objectively clean, not merely proclaimed clean.
In Christ,
Nancy
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SherryLynn9
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Paul Pignal:
(side note- please do some type of formatting of your text when adding a personal opinion next to scripture, it sort of runs together.)
Here are the passages.
Matt 5
(3) 21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not murder,1] and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause2] shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, "Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, "You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
Again, this is about us forgiving others as we want to be forgiven.
**
Matthew 18: 34
*33Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35"So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."6] *
*This is about getting forgiveness before judgement
Luke 12
57 "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."
First let me say I am very new and am not judging anyone but it looks like you are pulling scripture out of context to prove your point. True, I come from a non-Catholic background. These scriptures show me reconciliation and forgiveness are required to escape judgement.
(side note- please do some type of formatting of your text when adding a personal opinion next to scripture, it sort of runs together.)
Here are the passages.
Matt 5
(3) 21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not murder,1] and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause2] shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, "Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, "You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
Again, this is about us forgiving others as we want to be forgiven.
**
Matthew 18: 34
*33Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35"So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."6] *
*This is about getting forgiveness before judgement
Luke 12
57 "Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."
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catsrus
Guest
So, where did Lisa go?? I can’t find her on this thread after 10/3/04. Well, if you’re out there Lisa, I will tell you that when I was going through RCIA and had purgatory explained to me, I felt a tremendous relief. It is so sensible. I was always uncomfortable with the protestant black/white, heaven/hell. I knew I wasn’t clean for heaven but didn’t believe I was dirty enough for hell either - the whole thing was VERY depressing! Read some these wonderfully researched posts. These folks know their stuff and provide scriptural basis for purgatory.
I can’t find her on this thread after 10/3/04. Well, if you’re out there Lisa, I will tell you that when I was going through RCIA and had purgatory explained to me, I felt a tremendous relief. It is so sensible. I was always uncomfortable with the protestant black/white, heaven/hell. I knew I wasn’t clean for heaven but didn’t believe I was dirty enough for hell either - the whole thing was VERY depressing! Read some these wonderfully researched posts. These folks know their stuff and provide scriptural basis for purgatory.
J
JesusFreak16
Guest
Anyone who wants to talk to me or wants me to reply to them, go to my last thread “JesusFreak16’s last Thread.” I want to sort everything out because some people have hostile feelings towards me, and I want to resolve some issues.
God’s Peace~
Lisa
God’s Peace~
Lisa
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twf
Guest
Take a look at scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html. It has a bunch of verses that imply a purgatory. Here’s an example.
47 And that servant, who knew his lord’s will, and made not ready, nor did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes;
48 but he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And to whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom they commit much, of him will they ask the more. (Lk 12, ASV).
A servant beat at the end of the age, yet lives? What does this mean to you, Jesus Freak?
47 And that servant, who knew his lord’s will, and made not ready, nor did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes;
48 but he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And to whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom they commit much, of him will they ask the more. (Lk 12, ASV).
A servant beat at the end of the age, yet lives? What does this mean to you, Jesus Freak?
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rschermer2
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Lisa,
You asked the question about purgatory. Our prayers for the dead deal with those in purgatory. Try to stay on topic.
You see, it necessarily follows that if there are people in purgatory then our prayers can help them.
RS
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JesusFreak16
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Ok sorry. My mistake.
God’s Peace~
Lisa
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MariaG
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Lisa,
Scripture tells us to. As you may know, Protestants removed books from the Bible. (Think about it, Catholics have been around longer, how can we have added to Scripture?) Catholics had used as inspired Scripture since 300ad books that include Maccabbees. Luther did not wish to believe in purgatory, which is on of the reasons it was not included in the Protestant Bible. :bible1: 2 Macc 12:44-46 tells us that it is a holy thing to pray for the dead. In language as clear as that.
Jews still have prayers for the dead also. Interesting thing to me is that Maccabbees is not included in the official inspired word of God for Jews either. They set their Scripture in 70ad. One of the reasons Maccabbees is not included is because it was being used quite successfully to bring Jews to Christianity. So you can follow an OT that the Jews do, or you can use Scripture that Christians used up until the reformation. I go with the followers of Christ personally. In Scripture that Christians have used for 2000years, prayers for the dead are righteous and holy. That simple.
God Bless,
Maria
Scripture tells us to. As you may know, Protestants removed books from the Bible. (Think about it, Catholics have been around longer, how can we have added to Scripture?) Catholics had used as inspired Scripture since 300ad books that include Maccabbees. Luther did not wish to believe in purgatory, which is on of the reasons it was not included in the Protestant Bible. :bible1: 2 Macc 12:44-46 tells us that it is a holy thing to pray for the dead. In language as clear as that.
Jews still have prayers for the dead also. Interesting thing to me is that Maccabbees is not included in the official inspired word of God for Jews either. They set their Scripture in 70ad. One of the reasons Maccabbees is not included is because it was being used quite successfully to bring Jews to Christianity. So you can follow an OT that the Jews do, or you can use Scripture that Christians used up until the reformation. I go with the followers of Christ personally. In Scripture that Christians have used for 2000years, prayers for the dead are righteous and holy. That simple.
God Bless,
Maria
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StSteverino
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I go with the followers of Christ personally. In Scripture that Christians have used for 2000years, prayers for the dead are righteous and holy. That simple.
Quite right, but I am sorry if Lisa feels put upon or put down.
She originally said;
*It is disturbing to me that you believe in praying for the dead. They are dead, and their fate was already determined by God. How do you think praying for them will help them, when God is all-knowing and has already judged them?
God’s Peace~ Lisa*
]That is understandable, especially given a Protestant upbringing.
First, it is, as you say a constant teaching of the Church, but it is most developed in Roman Catholicism. Eastern Orthodox pray for the dead, but do not have an explicit teaching on purgatory.
Jesus of course prayed for the dead because, as we know, he was a righteous temple jew and would have chanted Kaddish. Part of fundamentalist problem is they do not know enough of what is not in the bible about Judaism or the era in which Jesus lived to understand their own faith. We Catholics make it worse by being smug, overly Thomistic and treating every question as a major attack on the faith.
We should have more love for Lisa’s soul.
In the end, every person I know, Protestant or Catholic has said at some time or place, God have mercy on so and so’s soul.
And Paul teaches us that even death does not separate the members of the Church, so I think there is no reason to despise the intercession of the heavenly chorus of apostles, martyrs, saints and angels. We are one with the Church Triumphant and hope to join Her some fine day.
So why not talk to her. They are not dead, Jesus tells us, for God is the God of the Living not the dead. And bear in mind, we ask them to pray for us and they do. We do not ‘channel them’ or engage in fortune telling.
Quite right, but I am sorry if Lisa feels put upon or put down.
She originally said;
*It is disturbing to me that you believe in praying for the dead. They are dead, and their fate was already determined by God. How do you think praying for them will help them, when God is all-knowing and has already judged them?
God’s Peace~ Lisa*
]That is understandable, especially given a Protestant upbringing.
First, it is, as you say a constant teaching of the Church, but it is most developed in Roman Catholicism. Eastern Orthodox pray for the dead, but do not have an explicit teaching on purgatory.
Jesus of course prayed for the dead because, as we know, he was a righteous temple jew and would have chanted Kaddish. Part of fundamentalist problem is they do not know enough of what is not in the bible about Judaism or the era in which Jesus lived to understand their own faith. We Catholics make it worse by being smug, overly Thomistic and treating every question as a major attack on the faith.
We should have more love for Lisa’s soul.
In the end, every person I know, Protestant or Catholic has said at some time or place, God have mercy on so and so’s soul.
And Paul teaches us that even death does not separate the members of the Church, so I think there is no reason to despise the intercession of the heavenly chorus of apostles, martyrs, saints and angels. We are one with the Church Triumphant and hope to join Her some fine day.
So why not talk to her. They are not dead, Jesus tells us, for God is the God of the Living not the dead. And bear in mind, we ask them to pray for us and they do. We do not ‘channel them’ or engage in fortune telling.
- Status