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martino
Guest
Maybe they will return sometime soon to answer all of our questions. We patiently wait!
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bengal_fan
Guest
i wanted to quote the whole thing because it was perfectly put.
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bengal_fan
Guest
this link doesn’t work (at least not for me). can you post it again or just give me the address? i would love to read this. thanks maria.
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jschwehm
Guest
Actually when I was a Missouri Synod Lutheran I had friends of mine who would say that any Christian could on his own determine which books should be included in the Bible and which ones should not be included. I had friends who rejected the canonicity of the Epistle of James and the book of Revelation based on their own personal beliefs. There rationale was that if Luther could do that why could they not do it?
Jeff S.
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MariaG
Guest
Here’s the link again. I’ll test it this time too!
star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/pg.html
Personally, I cried when I read it. It helped me to understand things better, although, the knowledge is still not quite internalized yet.
Your sister in Christ,
Maria
p.s.
Here is the address without a link just in case the link won’t work for you. star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/pg.html I am not sure why, but when I try to type it here, it is complete, but on the post it is not? but here is the “missing part” of the address the address says rc/a…h. the missing letters are : rc/aplgtc/hahn
star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/pg.html
Personally, I cried when I read it. It helped me to understand things better, although, the knowledge is still not quite internalized yet.
Your sister in Christ,
Maria
p.s.
Here is the address without a link just in case the link won’t work for you. star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/pg.html I am not sure why, but when I try to type it here, it is complete, but on the post it is not? but here is the “missing part” of the address the address says rc/a…h. the missing letters are : rc/aplgtc/hahn
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Malachi4U
Guest
Gods peace be with you Theolphilus Lisa,
When you read Scripture, and you sound like you do, note how God purifies sin. Fire is used repeatedly to purify and refine our soul ‘before’ we go to heaven. You might say this refineing process is purgatory.
I heard someone once say that the hottest place in the universe is heaven, not hell. In fact Gods love for us is His burning love for our soul. A heat so intense that only the pure refined soul is left behind. Our soul is like 24 karat gold and God is the furnice that never stops refining us to purity.
Praise God!
A prisoner of Christ
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carol_marie
Guest
Thank you 1962Missal & Brendan! Excellent points that I can’t really dispute although it is a change from my previous way of thinking. God Bless you, CM
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CARose
Guest
I also believe that while we don’t need more than truly loving God (meaning not turning our back to him through unrepented immortal sin) to get to heaven (with perhaps a very long stay in purgatory), we increase our odds of being in a state of Grace at that unpredicatable moment of death when we have established the habits of holiness.
Also, we are called to be Holy, to be saints for that matter. Why? For our own salvation, not exactly. Remember that in the end is it “Thy kingdom come”, suggesting that God will come to Earth and His Kingdom will reign on earth. For God to reign, we need a kingdom worthy of His presence. Are we there yet? I think not. We all need to use the Gifts he has given us through baptism (known as Charisms, or I sometimes call them Super-Talents), for the building up of His Church, the mystical body of Christ.
We bring others to Christ when we live a holy life. This is pleasing to God and allows Good to triumph over evil, one soul at a time, with God providing us with the necessary strength. But he’s allowing us to learn, over time, that he has in fact given us everything necessary to overcome Satan, we simply need to take it one step at a time, and never engage Satan in his terms.
Keep Charity and love of God always at the forefront. Love all, remember God made all mankind in His image and likeness, and so we all have the potential to repent and serve Him who is all good.
So, that’s what I believe Catholic “works” are all about. Bringing the entire world to God, according to His great plan.
CARose
Also, we are called to be Holy, to be saints for that matter. Why? For our own salvation, not exactly. Remember that in the end is it “Thy kingdom come”, suggesting that God will come to Earth and His Kingdom will reign on earth. For God to reign, we need a kingdom worthy of His presence. Are we there yet? I think not. We all need to use the Gifts he has given us through baptism (known as Charisms, or I sometimes call them Super-Talents), for the building up of His Church, the mystical body of Christ.
We bring others to Christ when we live a holy life. This is pleasing to God and allows Good to triumph over evil, one soul at a time, with God providing us with the necessary strength. But he’s allowing us to learn, over time, that he has in fact given us everything necessary to overcome Satan, we simply need to take it one step at a time, and never engage Satan in his terms.
Keep Charity and love of God always at the forefront. Love all, remember God made all mankind in His image and likeness, and so we all have the potential to repent and serve Him who is all good.
So, that’s what I believe Catholic “works” are all about. Bringing the entire world to God, according to His great plan.
CARose
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
What is a “tr0ll?”
Robert in SD:
Now depending on whether you’re geek, hacker, or none of the above, spellings vary between troll, 7r011, tr()||, +|~011, 7r()||, and other creative styles.
A Troll is someone on public groups (forums, such as this one, mailing lists, or newsgroups) who deliberately posts inflammatory or ulterior statements or questions for the sole purpose of starting an argument. Trolls often disappear in the middle of the fray.
Now depending on whether you’re geek, hacker, or none of the above, spellings vary between troll, 7r011, tr()||, +|~011, 7r()||, and other creative styles.
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StSteverino
Guest
I don’t believe in imputed righteosness.
I did at one time and left the Catholic Church. I found it to really be impudent self righteosness.
Talk to me about that.
As to Purgatory, this is a teaching of the bible and early church that is clearly in seed form and which, like the mustard seed, has developed after 2000 yrs of prayer and reflection.
I can not help but notice that a growing number of evangelicals are actually speculating in places like Christianity Today that something like purgatory must be true.
The soul that finds itself in Purgatory will rejoice. It knows it will see God and God is present in Purgatory.
But the soul knows it must be made perfect and suffering is one way God perfects those he loves. It is not sadism, but mercy. Purgatory is not a half way point between hell and heaven. Hell is nowhere. The souls in purgatory are members of the Church. They are elect, but not perfect.
The Orthodox Churches, all of whom are ancient with authentic apostolic roots, pray for the dead, which means they believe their prayers help the dead, even though they do not have a formal teaching of ‘purgatory’. They also do not like the Immaculate Conception, even though they teach under another name that Mary was called by God from her mothers womb to be the True Tabernacle and that she, by special grace, was able to live a sinless life.
A rose by any other name…
There are liturgies as early as 325 ad which include prayers for the dead and we have grafitti on Catacombs suggesting Christians as early as 255 ad, faced with tigers and torture, asked Mary and the Martyrs to pray for them to hold fast to Christ even unto the very deaths of themselves and their families. Read about the Theban Martyrs and St Maurice. Do you think the they were less Christian than the people wolfing down chix and biscuits on wed nite supper?
What about the conversation between the Rich Man and Abraham as Abraham conforted Lazaurus? Where was the Rich Man? Not in Hell- The elect have not conversation with the damned. The Rich Man was being saved, but as if by fire.
Lastly, was Jesus a Heretic? Jesus we know was a righteous Temple Jew. He and Our Lady and Good Saint Joseph Prayed the the Shema every day.
They also prayed Kaddish. Go to a jewish funeral. Prayes are offered for the dead, which presumes that the dead benefit from prayers which means some are still being made purgatory.
The idea that we are just dung and we hold up an umbella called Jesus and we enter the Holy Wedding Feast of the Lamb is just wrong. You will be fitted for a Garment and if you show up without it there will be wailing and gnashing.
Purgatory is where God finishes those who die in a state of grace but not perfection.
No one can buy their way out of purgatory and no one can buy away a mortal sin. You can wear a million scapulars and if you die in deadly separation from Christ, you will never see heaven.
In the end, there is only Heaven and Hell and what an awesome and humbling mystery that is.
We can offer God something more than dung and he has more to offer us than an umbrella marked JESUS. God loves us so much, he won’t save us, even with Christ, unless we cooperate. That is not works salvation, it is true obedience of Faith to a Truly Sovereign God.
Yours in Christ’s Love and the intercession of Theotokus and the Holy Martyrs of All Ages,
Steve
I did at one time and left the Catholic Church. I found it to really be impudent self righteosness.
Talk to me about that.
As to Purgatory, this is a teaching of the bible and early church that is clearly in seed form and which, like the mustard seed, has developed after 2000 yrs of prayer and reflection.
I can not help but notice that a growing number of evangelicals are actually speculating in places like Christianity Today that something like purgatory must be true.
The soul that finds itself in Purgatory will rejoice. It knows it will see God and God is present in Purgatory.
But the soul knows it must be made perfect and suffering is one way God perfects those he loves. It is not sadism, but mercy. Purgatory is not a half way point between hell and heaven. Hell is nowhere. The souls in purgatory are members of the Church. They are elect, but not perfect.
The Orthodox Churches, all of whom are ancient with authentic apostolic roots, pray for the dead, which means they believe their prayers help the dead, even though they do not have a formal teaching of ‘purgatory’. They also do not like the Immaculate Conception, even though they teach under another name that Mary was called by God from her mothers womb to be the True Tabernacle and that she, by special grace, was able to live a sinless life.
A rose by any other name…
There are liturgies as early as 325 ad which include prayers for the dead and we have grafitti on Catacombs suggesting Christians as early as 255 ad, faced with tigers and torture, asked Mary and the Martyrs to pray for them to hold fast to Christ even unto the very deaths of themselves and their families. Read about the Theban Martyrs and St Maurice. Do you think the they were less Christian than the people wolfing down chix and biscuits on wed nite supper?
What about the conversation between the Rich Man and Abraham as Abraham conforted Lazaurus? Where was the Rich Man? Not in Hell- The elect have not conversation with the damned. The Rich Man was being saved, but as if by fire.
Lastly, was Jesus a Heretic? Jesus we know was a righteous Temple Jew. He and Our Lady and Good Saint Joseph Prayed the the Shema every day.
They also prayed Kaddish. Go to a jewish funeral. Prayes are offered for the dead, which presumes that the dead benefit from prayers which means some are still being made purgatory.
The idea that we are just dung and we hold up an umbella called Jesus and we enter the Holy Wedding Feast of the Lamb is just wrong. You will be fitted for a Garment and if you show up without it there will be wailing and gnashing.
Purgatory is where God finishes those who die in a state of grace but not perfection.
No one can buy their way out of purgatory and no one can buy away a mortal sin. You can wear a million scapulars and if you die in deadly separation from Christ, you will never see heaven.
In the end, there is only Heaven and Hell and what an awesome and humbling mystery that is.
We can offer God something more than dung and he has more to offer us than an umbrella marked JESUS. God loves us so much, he won’t save us, even with Christ, unless we cooperate. That is not works salvation, it is true obedience of Faith to a Truly Sovereign God.
Yours in Christ’s Love and the intercession of Theotokus and the Holy Martyrs of All Ages,
Steve
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mayra_hart
Guest
cs lewis was another non-catholic who believed in purgatory. in his letters to malcolm: chiefly on prayer, lewis writes: our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? would it not break the heart if god said to us, “it is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things,nor draw away from you. enter into the joy”? should we not reply, “with submission,sir,and if there is no objection,i 'd rather be cleaned first.” it may hurt,you know"- “even so,sir.” without perfect holiness,we cannot see god in heaven… amen
J
Joanna
Guest
StSteverino, your response is thoughful as a whole.
The part that I’ve quoted above quickly brought to mind how Jesus referred to such a condition, “You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and every kind of filth.” (Matthew 23:27) and also, “Although you cleanse the outside of the cup and the dish, inside you are filled with plunder and evil. You fools! Did not the maker of the outside also make the inside?” (Luke 11: 40).
How heavenly can it possibly be to merely wear a garment that in fact masks what we truly are? That’s like being an angel of light, looking like Truth and Beauty but being the devil in disquise; hardly worthy of a God who is Truth and Beauty and calls us to union with Him, “Be holy, for I, the Lord, your God, am holy.” (Leviticus 19:22)
God who creates out of nothing with word, with the Word, has merely to look at us in His Mercy and say to us, “Be Holy” and it will be accomplished if we allow our wills to line up with His, "for nothing will be impossible with God (Luke 1:37) Before the Word took flesh in Mary her will had to be one with the Father. “Fiat secundum verbum tuum” (Luke 1:38).
Jesus revealed, and Paul declared, "This means that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17).
How sad if in our final heavenly state the best God could accomplish in us is a sanitized version of white washes sepulchres; no, Paul knew, " the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come. (2Corinthians 5:17)
Purgatory is God’s Word in action, we could say, His Holy Spirit, the Sanctifier.
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Malachi4U
Guest
Gods peace be with you homer,
homer:
Not any I’ve seen! ALL the versions I read say Jesus told the theif he would be in paridise - NOT heaven! If you study you will find out that paradise was a location known by the Jews for the dead who had not gone to heaven! Jesus went to preach to the dead to give them a chance for salvation - remeber the Apostles Creed? Jesus did not ascend into heaven untill when? If you guessed the day he died you were wrong. Jesus died and on the ‘third’ arose from the dead (paradise), He walked on earth and met with the apostles and others and then “several” days or so later ascended into “HEAVEN” (NOT paradise).
I will use the KJV to show my points. A version I use often.
(KJV) Lk 23:43 “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
(KJV) Lk 24:51 “And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.” (No mention of a theif here?)
(KJV) Ze 13:7-9 " 7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. 8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God." (red highlighting mine)
homer,
Please include some references for what you claim and include them in “CONTEXT”. I too was a protestant and missled by some of the same false propaganda you seem to pass out. Hopefully this will be a start for you to ‘see’ the truth, not just look at words on pages in Scripture.
PS. Purgatory is a name Catholics gave for a place/event described in Scripture. You may also remember another famous name the Catholics “invented” to describe what Scripture taught. It is the name “Trinity” that describes our God in 3 equal persons yet one. 1+1+1=1, this is the Catholic math of "F"aith!
Start a new thread if you need to. I would love to read what you have to say with documented facts.
A prisoner of Christ
Could you please repeat the “story” for me? Please include references too so I can fact check them. To make it even better, if you can, use only Catholic sources. The “story” may be famous but I have not heard it the way you distort it.
Will it clean ‘everyone’ of all sins or just the ‘saved’? Jesus said that not all who call upon His name will be saved. The OT also says that 1/3 will pass through fire, a refining process of Gods love for the ‘saved’.
Uhm??? Which Bible version do you use?
Not any I’ve seen! ALL the versions I read say Jesus told the theif he would be in paridise - NOT heaven! If you study you will find out that paradise was a location known by the Jews for the dead who had not gone to heaven! Jesus went to preach to the dead to give them a chance for salvation - remeber the Apostles Creed? Jesus did not ascend into heaven untill when? If you guessed the day he died you were wrong. Jesus died and on the ‘third’ arose from the dead (paradise), He walked on earth and met with the apostles and others and then “several” days or so later ascended into “HEAVEN” (NOT paradise).I will use the KJV to show my points. A version I use often.
(KJV) Lk 23:43 “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
(KJV) Lk 24:51 “And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.” (No mention of a theif here?)
(KJV) Ze 13:7-9 " 7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. 8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God." (red highlighting mine)
homer,
Please include some references for what you claim and include them in “CONTEXT”. I too was a protestant and missled by some of the same false propaganda you seem to pass out. Hopefully this will be a start for you to ‘see’ the truth, not just look at words on pages in Scripture.
PS. Purgatory is a name Catholics gave for a place/event described in Scripture. You may also remember another famous name the Catholics “invented” to describe what Scripture taught. It is the name “Trinity” that describes our God in 3 equal persons yet one. 1+1+1=1, this is the Catholic math of "F"aith!
Start a new thread if you need to. I would love to read what you have to say with documented facts.
A prisoner of Christ
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Anonymous_1
Guest
Does it matter? Do you need to believe in gravity for it to hold you down?
The way i look at all this confusion in doctrine as just that… confusion. People have a tendency to overly complicate things… Keep it SImple.All have sinned, Sin needs to be punished… Jesus took our punishment upon himself… Thos who have repented and have been born of the Spirit and stand firm in the belief that Jesus died so that we might stand blameless and holy in the presense of God…(Collosians 2;22)
Truth is can the Pope or any human here on earth say after we die we goto a palce called purgatory. The part that cracks me up is how we came up with the “doctrine” that Michael the Archangel is the guardian of Purgatory and all that bologna! Some of the doctrine the Catholic Churches today are kinda far fetched.
My answer I dont know if their is a purgatory. I dont know if i am suppose dto pray to mary our Michael or pray for dead people. I know i am supposed to live a life of faith in Christ, living by His mighty power and Grace. I am suppose dto live a life of love,etc. I pray often for God to lead me to the truth abd to teach me. Anyway. God Bless. May the Grace and Peace and Joy that comes from our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.
The way i look at all this confusion in doctrine as just that… confusion. People have a tendency to overly complicate things… Keep it SImple.All have sinned, Sin needs to be punished… Jesus took our punishment upon himself… Thos who have repented and have been born of the Spirit and stand firm in the belief that Jesus died so that we might stand blameless and holy in the presense of God…(Collosians 2;22)
Truth is can the Pope or any human here on earth say after we die we goto a palce called purgatory. The part that cracks me up is how we came up with the “doctrine” that Michael the Archangel is the guardian of Purgatory and all that bologna! Some of the doctrine the Catholic Churches today are kinda far fetched.
My answer I dont know if their is a purgatory. I dont know if i am suppose dto pray to mary our Michael or pray for dead people. I know i am supposed to live a life of faith in Christ, living by His mighty power and Grace. I am suppose dto live a life of love,etc. I pray often for God to lead me to the truth abd to teach me. Anyway. God Bless. May the Grace and Peace and Joy that comes from our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.
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Anonymous_1
Guest
Read Daniel Chapter 3.
1 Peter 1;6
“So be truly glad! There is wonderful joy ahead of you, even though it is necesary for you to endure many trials for a while.
These trials are only to test your faith, to show that it is strong and pure. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold- and your faith is far more rpecious to God then mere gold. So if your faith remains strong after beign tested by FEIRY TRIALS, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.”
1 Peter 4;12
“Dear friends, dont be suprised at the FEIRY TRIALS you are going through”
We are tested and purified by fire. I have always understood this in ym life as being the trials I go through. The sometimes very hard learning experiences. Sometimes even the pain caused by sin. (Isaiah 1;21)
Any way maybe someone can show me something im missing
M
MariaG
Guest
Yes we are tested and purified by fire. Sometimes those tests are done before we die. But God tells us nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Do you honestly believe that every Christian you know is completely purified before they die? If not, then they are unfit for heaven. Purgatory is the final purification before we step into the glory and presence of God.
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Patristic
Guest
Dear Lisa, After reading all of the responses to you I must now ask you…If you do not believe in purgatory,… why? Maybe there is something else that needs to be said that we are missing. God love you, …Patristic
J
Joseph_J.Pippe
Guest
Lisa,Peace be with you.Go to Tan Books <tanbooks.com>You can get a book their for about $10.00 (inc.S&H,)Title:Read Me or Rue it. unable to recall author’s name.Seems to me a lot of caring people have replied to your inquiry.The Holy Spirit seems to have touched you somehow.It’s up to you to do the work,check out the info you recieved,you do the work.READ! some thing else has come to my mind,someone said,God has limited our inteligence, but, our Stupidity is Unlimited.In your bible you should find references to a purging of Sin,not until the last Farthing is paid,etc.Respectfully with Jesus,Mary, and Joseph,Joseph J.P.Pippet
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