Purgatory

[MikeW1941]

Wow, I never knew there was so many doubters about Purgatory. Here are some sources to use for references if you’d like:
2 Mac 12, 43-46 Luke 12, 58f 1 Peter 3, 18-20 Rev 5, 3. 13 Matthew 5, 25f: 12, 32
1 Cor 3, 15 1 John 5, 16
God Bless You All!

 

[ContraFool]

homer:

Because Jesus told him: Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. !!!

We don’t know how long Purgatory takes. He could have been in and out of there in a second, still allowing him to get there on the same day.

 

[Raphael]

As you said you don’t follow people. It is obvious you don’t follow the Apostle, which we do. However Jesus said, “He who rejects you, (the apostles) rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects Him who sent me.” This is pretty serious stuff.

It doesn’t seem to me that you should feel so sure about your faith or your salvation when you demonstrate that you have no need to follow either apostolic tradition or the original creed written by his apostles. They and their discendants are proper religious authority which has been handed down to us by Christ. I would understand your answers to mean that you don’t believe you are bound to follow any law but the one’s you set. This makes you your own pope.

It must be nice to beleive that you are more religious, more intelligent and have a much superior relationship to Christ then his own handpicked Apostles, Martyrs and Saints.

 

[serenasfav]

Hi Lisa!

This is part one of my post. Had to break it in two…I was raised Baptist so I can certainly understand the problems that you are having in understanding Catholic teachings. I have learned a TON since I started coming to a special Catholic prayer group here in Kansas City (people from all over the world come here). Once I learned that the main teaching of Purgatory was found in the Second book of Maccabees, and that that was one of the books that Protestant “reformers” (I call them “revolters”) had removed from their bibles, then I understood why protestants after that time didn’t agree with the idea of Purgatory—it wasn’t in their Bibles any more! I don’t know who coined the word Purgatory but that is really a moot point. We could have called it by another name but the concept is still the same.

Jesus said that “even the just man sins seven times a day.” Furthermore He stated that death could come “like a thief in the night.” What if that is the case with one of us? We know from the book of James (the one that Martin Luther originally pulled out because it didn’t agree with his heretical views…this book was later quietly reintroduced into the Lutheran canon of scripture) that “not all sin is deadly.” So if we were to get struck by an unseen car and die right on the spot (which happened yesterday to a 74-year-old woman here in Kansas City :crying: )—without having time to ask Jesus to forgive us—what should be our lot? Even if we have one sin on our soul, we cannot be allowed entrance to Heaven, as Heaven is a perfect place. I have heard it said that even if a soul that had one sin was allowed into Heaven that it would voluntarily cast itself out into purgatory, because the absolute purity of Heaven would be too much for it to bear.
Purgatory is a place which demonstrates the incredible mercy of Jesus. We may die with an attachment to sin, and this still would prevent our entering Heaven. Jesus told us to love one another. That includes helping one another. Purgatory is a place of purification, that the Catholic Church has taught that those of us on earth (the Church militant) can help those in purgatory (the Church suffering) with our prayers and our sacrifices and mortifications (such as getting up early, something that is very difficult for me to do…or like St. Therese, never leaning against the back of a chair for support. She did this for the last 9 years of her life). Lisa, be sure to read the conditions necessary for an indulgence to be granted. Usually it involves lots of prayers, confession—on behalf of the dead or myself. Indulgences can’t be bought. If one tries to do that, the indulgence is lost. So, for example, to pray the “Prayer before a Crucifix”, one of my favorites, there is a indulgence of 500 days. In other words when I say that prayer, which includes an Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory Be at the end, the soul in purgatory will receive some “time off” their stay in purgatory. They are in purgatory by their own fault. What wonderful mercy on our part to help them out. After all, I heard the phrase mercy wouldn’t be mercy if it was deserved!

 

[serenasfav]

Here is part 2 of 3

Some of the saints have made the big sacrifice of offering all prayers which may be said for their soul after their death, be given instead to another soul in purgatory.

Lisa, it is okay to believe in the communion of saints. The Catholic Church (the only Christian denomination which can claim Christ as its founder) is within its full rights, as given by Christ, to declare that someone is in Heaven. Understand that this process is very painstaking and can take hundreds of years. There is a very strict system of checks and balances, and it must be proven (and the Church does make use of science—even non-Catholic or non-Christian scientists) that the deceased did intercede for a genuine miracle. The Church teaches that since the Saints are seeing Christ face to face, that it is perfectly acceptible to ask their prayers or help. As for me, St. Therese of Lisieux, and her sisters, Celine and Leonie, have all helped me. Blessed Bakhita, St. Jane Frances de Chantal, and many, many more come to mind…Usually I feel an impulse to not do something or think something, or feel reminded to act in charity in a particular moment. I know that it is one of the saints helping me at that time. Since they know what it is like to “be in the trenches” so to speak, they want to help us in our need. Isn’t that what love is all about??? I am very sure that over time, you will read about saints and will feel a special “kinship” or closeness to some of them. These are “your” saints…the ones that God has asked to help you. Why not start with St. Padre Pio of Pietrelcina. I can send you info if you like. My friend Isabella, who is VERY, VERY devoted to him, got me to read about him and he pops into my thoughts even more.

 

[serenasfav]

Here is part 2

Some of the saints have made the big sacrifice of offering all prayers which may be said for their soul after their death, be given instead to another soul in purgatory.

Lisa, it is okay to believe in the communion of saints. The Catholic Church (the only Christian denomination which can claim Christ as its founder) is within its full rights, as given by Christ, to declare that someone is in Heaven. Understand that this process is very painstaking and can take hundreds of years. There is a very strict system of checks and balances, and it must be proven (and the Church does make use of science—even non-Catholic or non-Christian scientists) that the deceased did intercede for a genuine miracle. The Church teaches that since the Saints are seeing Christ face to face, that it is perfectly acceptible to ask their prayers or help. As for me, St. Therese of Lisieux, and her sisters, Celine and Leonie, have all helped me. Blessed Bakhita, St. Jane Frances de Chantal, and many, many more come to mind…Usually I feel an impulse to not do something or think something, or feel reminded to act in charity in a particular moment. I know that it is one of the saints helping me at that time. Since they know what it is like to “be in the trenches” so to speak, they want to help us in our need. Isn’t that what love is all about??? I am very sure that over time, you will read about saints and will feel a special “kinship” or closeness to some of them. These are “your” saints…the ones that God has asked to help you. Why not start with St. Padre Pio of Pietrelcina. I can send you info if you like. My friend Isabella, who is VERY, VERY devoted to him, got me to read about him and he pops into my thoughts even more.

 

[serenasfav]

Part 3 of 3 (this is it! I promise :yup: )

I could explain much more, about the Eucharist, if you would want, or anything you like. I have been in your shoes and it would be a pleasure to be of help if you want. The prayer group helped me a LOT in understanding all of these things. Isabella would be able to help you much, much, much better than I. Rest assured, just keep on praying for the Holy Spirit to explain Catholic things to you—not to be converted—at least to just understand where the Catholic Church stands on things. The Holy Spirit will do the conversion on His part.

:bounce:

Study the History of Christianity. You will see that it was Christ’s intention for us all to be “one.” That was His prayer from the beginning. The Catholic Church has been teaching the same thing since Christ. All other Christian denominations are the result of breaking away from the Catholic Church, or as in the case of some of them, breaking away from another protestant church that has broken away from the Catholic Church. I used to attend Tryst Falls Baptist Church in Kearney, Missouri. It was broken off from the Second Baptist Church in Kearney, because some people didn’t like the pastor. (That seems to be the philosophy of protestant denominations. Whenever there’s a disagreement, they just break away and start their own church… ) One day I was uptown Kearney gassing my car. I had been dating a Catholic guy and attending Mass with him (after my big experience sitting in front of the Tabernacle). Anyhow I ran into a lady from Tryst Falls who was also gassing her car. She asked about my parents, as none of us had been attending church there for awhile (and it is perfectly okay to not go to church at all if you’re Protestant). I said they were okay. She asked about me, and I happily said that I was going to church at St. Ann’s in Excelsior (Springs). Her jaw dropped and she cautiously asked. “That’s Catholic, isn’t it?” “Yes,” I replied, not seeing what the big deal was. Well she didn’t say another word, and immediately got in her car and drove off! I guess that was my first experience of anti-Catholic bias.

Michelle in Kansas City, Missouri

“There are not 100 people in the world who hate the Catholic Church—but there are millions who mistakenly hate what they *think *the Catholic Church is.”
—Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen (1895-1979)
elpaso.net/~bank/elpasohistory/sheen/
ad2000.com.au/articles/2000/mar2000p12_271.html

 

[Randell]

I am a lifelong Cahtolic, I have always had my own ideas about purgatory, personally until this discussion I was somewhat skeptical. Now I think I believe it more, great points by all. I debate many people at work about the Catholic beliefs. Purgatory was one I consistently lost on, probably because you must believe in something to fully debate for it. With some of the great points pointed out here, I can now go forward and bring more people forward to Catholic beliefs.

Thanks
god bless

Randy

 

[Paul_Pignal]

Just a few quotes for your consideration;

Matt.5:25,18:34; Luke 12:58-59-Temporary state called a “prison”
There is no escape until the last penny is paid.
Luke.12:47-48; When the master comes at the end of time some will recieve light some heavy beatings but will live. There are no beatings in Heaven and there is no life in Hell. What is this place?
Heb.!2:23; The "SPIRITS"or Souls of just men are “MADE” perfect they do not always arrive perfect.
1Cor.3:14-15;We are saved inspite of ourselves but only “as through fire” purgatory make us clean or perfect.

I hope this helps
Peace
Paul

 

[saintintraining]

porthos11:

Do I detect a TR()|| pattern in Jesusfreak16’s posts/threads?

TR()|| Alert! TR()|| Alert!!!

I AGREE! Or she went back to read the Bible or read about Early Christians and found no way to argue!

 

[1962Missal]

saintintraining:

I AGREE! Or she went back to read the Bible or read about Early Christians and found no way to argue!

Bait and switch? She and Ozzie arrived at the same time.

Justin

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

JesusFreak16:

I don’t believe in Purgatory. Talk to me.

God’s Peace~ Lisa

Hi!

I’d have to first ask you, what is it about purgatory that you don’t believe?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[destrecht]

homer:

JesusFreak16, purgatory is an imaginary place created by Catholic tradition a long time ago to take advantage of indulgences. Famous true story, no need to repeat it.

Actually that’s inaccurate- it’s more of a process than a place. Purgatory means simply- purification. Think of it as Heaven’s mud room. Paul spoke of it in first Corinthians chapter three. If you are going there, you are going to heaven- so YES he did do it once and for all. BUT you gotta get cleaned up to see the lord (Revelations) Jesus allows us to get there- this just happens while there. (It’s in the bible as can see if you let yourself) As for prayer: getting cleaned by fire (paraphrased- Paul again) can be uncomfortable. Prayers help shorten the time there. We still use the word purgatory instead of purification, but we also say Catholic istead of United, or Universal church.

Chris Allen

Marketing Director, Retrouvaille- Diocese of Wichita

 

[Sir_Hubert]

Homer

homer:

Because Jesus told him: Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. !!!

Yes He did, and some would argue that the thief at that very moment accepted Christ as his Lord and Savior and didn’t live long enough to “sin” again in his life. Baptism of desire, for their was no other way at that point in his life to be baptised. ( Water or blood/martyrdom) At the moment of baptism you are cleansed of all sin putting you in the state of grace. If the thief died without sin on his soul, and in the state of grace of course he would be in heaven. However, we are not like the “good thief”. We have all sinned before our Lord after our baptism. Like the good thief we must ask for forgiveness and repent of our sin. Let us remember what our Lord said … " Every last penny must be repaid" It is only through Gods Mercy that we are allowed to enter Purgatory as a last cleansing before entering heaven, for nothing imperfect can enter heaven.

In His Peace!

 

[scrappinchristi]

Purgatory or purification is a place named and defined by human beings, not God in the year 1030. Where in God’s Word does He speak of purgatory or a need for further purification?

I used to believe in purgatory until I researched its origin. It is not biblically based.

JGC:

CCC

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

scborromeo.org/index2.htm
(See Catechism link on left)

 

[scrappinchristi]

Men like Martin Luther and John Calvin broke away from the Catholic Church because they questioned that Tradition was the basis of Truth. They challenged the Church whether the Bible was actually the authority of Truth.

Martin Luther was an Augustinian priest who was a professor of theology at the Catholic University of Wittenburg. He objected to representatives of the pope who were selling pardons for purgatory to raise money to build St. Peter’s Basilica. Luther wrote 95 reasons that this act was wrong and nailed the paper to the Catholic University doors.

Yes, there are millions who disagree with the teachings of the Catholic Church, but there are **also **millions of Catholics who disagree with evangelical Christians, as well. I don’t believe that God intended for us to “bash” each other.

.

serenasfav:

Part 3 of 3 (this is it! I promise :yup: )

I could explain much more, about the Eucharist, if you would want, or anything you like. I have been in your shoes and it would be a pleasure to be of help if you want. The prayer group helped me a LOT in understanding all of these things. Isabella would be able to help you much, much, much better than I. Rest assured, just keep on praying for the Holy Spirit to explain Catholic things to you—not to be converted—at least to just understand where the Catholic Church stands on things. The Holy Spirit will do the conversion on His part.

:bounce:

Study the History of Christianity. You will see that it was Christ’s intention for us all to be “one.” That was His prayer from the beginning. The Catholic Church has been teaching the same thing since Christ. All other Christian denominations are the result of breaking away from the Catholic Church, or as in the case of some of them, breaking away from another protestant church that has broken away from the Catholic Church. I used to attend Tryst Falls Baptist Church in Kearney, Missouri. It was broken off from the Second Baptist Church in Kearney, because some people didn’t like the pastor. (That seems to be the philosophy of protestant denominations. Whenever there’s a disagreement, they just break away and start their own church… ) One day I was uptown Kearney gassing my car. I had been dating a Catholic guy and attending Mass with him (after my big experience sitting in front of the Tabernacle). Anyhow I ran into a lady from Tryst Falls who was also gassing her car. She asked about my parents, as none of us had been attending church there for awhile (and it is perfectly okay to not go to church at all if you’re Protestant). I said they were okay. She asked about me, and I happily said that I was going to church at St. Ann’s in Excelsior (Springs). Her jaw dropped and she cautiously asked. “That’s Catholic, isn’t it?” “Yes,” I replied, not seeing what the big deal was. Well she didn’t say another word, and immediately got in her car and drove off! I guess that was my first experience of anti-Catholic bias.

Michelle in Kansas City, Missouri

“There are not 100 people in the world who hate the Catholic Church—but there are millions who mistakenly hate what they *think *the Catholic Church is.”
—Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen (1895-1979)
elpaso.net/~bank/elpasohistory/sheen/
ad2000.com.au/articles/2000/mar2000p12_271.html

 

[scrappinchristi]

I am a Catholic who has devoted two years to studying the teachings of the Catholic Church. I have also studied the teachings of Bible-Based Churches.

I don’t believe God intended for us to “bash” one another. In the Old Testament God stated many times that Pride and Arrogance were the most detestable of sins.

“To love one another as I have loved you,” is one the greatest commandments of all (Mt. 22:38, Jn. 13:34). I wonder if God would consider the breech of this commandment as a “mortal sin”.

I am disappointed that I joined this Forum. Most of what I have read is one person criticicizing another’s beliefs or comments. How can you say that you are Christians?

porthos11:

Do I detect a TR()|| pattern in Jesusfreak16’s posts/threads?

TR()|| Alert! TR()|| Alert!!!

 

[scrappinchristi]

Saint in Training,

Please read my response to Porthos11’s? original tr0LL quote.

saintintraining:

I AGREE! Or she went back to read the Bible or read about Early Christians and found no way to argue!

 

[twf]

For this and other questions you may have I highly recommend Dave Armstrong’s book “A Biblical Defence of Catholicism” which you can get very cheap in .doc format. He also has a lot of great apologetics free at his site. His site is ic.net/~erasmus/RAZINDEX.HTM. I also recommend Catholicoutlook.com
His book (Dave’s) has a great chapter on purgatory. A lot of people have already done a great job of explaining purgatory from a purification process, but it must also be understood as a punishment of sorts. Christ paid the price in full for our sins, as far as the eternal penalty is concerned, but there still remains a temporal penalty for our sins. Hebrews 12, as cited earlier in this thread, is a good example of this, as well as the death and illnes of those who abused the Eucharist in 1 Cor. 11. An excellent example, however, is in 2 Samuel 12:13-14. David repented and was forgiven of his sin of adultery, yet God punished him with the death of his son (and actually the punishment was even more extensive than that, if you read the passage). He was forgiven, but yet there was a temporal penalty or punishment for his sin. This temporal penalty is paid either in this life or in purgatory. It is similar to the idea of a parent disciplining his child. The temporal penalty for sin helps us to learn from our mistakes, and to, realize the consequences of sin. If you kill a man, even if you are forgiven, you can never bring the man back…all sins have consequences, big and small.

CCC#1472:
To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church [actually indulgences in this context], it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84 [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]

 

[porthos11]

I admire your charity, but trolling (on any forum, Catholic or otherwise) is a breach of Netiquette, and is not to be tolerated. This is regardless of the nature of the boards. In any public forum, even on the Internet, standards of decorum are to be maintained. If you notice, the Catholics defending their faith are mostly charitable (with some exceptions, of course), while the anti-Catholics are really virulent (and troll the most).

scrappinchristi:

I am a Catholic who has devoted two years to studying the teachings of the Catholic Church. I have also studied the teachings of Bible-Based Churches.

I don’t believe God intended for us to “bash” one another. In the Old Testament God stated many times that Pride and Arrogance were the most detestable of sins.

“To love one another as I have loved you,” is one the greatest commandments of all (Mt. 22:38, Jn. 13:34). I wonder if God would consider the breech of this commandment as a “mortal sin”.

I am disappointed that I joined this Forum. Most of what I have read is one person criticicizing another’s beliefs or comments. How can you say that you are Christians?