I just boughtLetters To Malcom. Now I’ve got a glimpse of Lewis’ purgatory, still pretty mild especially compared to the alternative.:bigyikes: .To use C.S. Lewis’s analogy, if it lasts as long as rising my mouth with full-strength Listerine (which is just a few seconds), then it’s better to suffer now and enjoy later.
“documented in the Bible”, eh? chuckle If you hold that the Catholic Church is corrupt, why do you venerate a Catholic document so much? The Bible was compiled in the fifth Century by a Council of the Catholic Church. the Council went through a rigorous process determining which book was God-breathed and which was not. Why do you hold that the Gospel of Matthew is a Sacred Text and not the Gospel of Mary, for example. If you hold that the former is and the latter isn’t, you are just following a Canon established by the aforementioned Council – another of Catholic Tradition.
mrS4ntA said:
Is this for real? This sounds so wierd. Sounds like they are selling tickets out of purgatory - and it’s recomended that you buy in advance???
i don’t think that is a very good example. yes, by God’s (or the box factory owner’s) mercy we are forgiven, but by His grace (unmerited favor) He paid the price. we don’t have to pay the $1000 dollars (as it is too much for us to bear) so God (in the form of another box worker) pays the price for us. there are still temporal punishments (like being transferred to another part of the factory), but there is nothing left for us to pay for. purgatory is not a payment for sins, it is a cleansing of them. there is a difference. we are not being punished in purgatory, we are being purified. Jesus was already punished in our place, there is no need to do it again, but we still have the dirt of our sinful natures upon us and that must be washed clean (and sometimes burned off) before we enter into the banquet. so, i do believe in purgatory, but the example of the factory worker is a bad one.
but the problem is (and please, anyone correct me if i’m wrong) the bible talks about punishment for sin being accomplished on the cross. it does not talk about “temporal punishment” (that i know of). now, it does talk about cleansing and our works being tested and some burning off and others passing through the fire. now, fire probably burns (i’ve heard that somewhere
) so there is some pain involved but i don’t see where that pain is a punishment, but a blessing as it is caused by the cleansing of our souls so as to be prepared to enter into our Father’s house. that is why i have a problem with the punishment of purgatory because it is a purging not a punishment.
but the problem is (and please, anyone correct me if i’m wrong) the bible talks about punishment for sin being accomplished on the cross. it does not talk about “temporal punishment” (that i know of). now, it does talk about cleansing and our works being tested and some burning off and others passing through the fire. now, fire probably burns (i’ve heard that somewhere
Now, those who are not chastised as a result of their sin in this life will receive that chastisement in the life to come. When we speak of the debt owed for sin in this sense, we are only talking about the corrective consequences that follow necessarily from the very nature of the offense committed, not about an arbitrarily imposed punitive judgment.
bengal_fan said:
i like this analogy a little more except…the soccer game was played in 3 feet of mud and manure and you played it a week ago and still have not showered. the muck is caked in your hair and has seeped into your skin so much that your skin has turned darker. it is under your nails and in parts of your body you haven’t seen in years. you are so dirty that a normal shower won’t work (not to mention the smell which will take some serious work to get rid of). your father has to come in and clean you off. he takes you out back (so as to not contaminate th whole house with the stench) and begins to hose you down with very hot water. your siblings take scrub brushes and start scrubbing you so hard your skin begins to hurt. the brushes don’t work fully so they need to use something more (like steel wool maybe). they are also trying to wash your hair and to get the muck out they start to wet it and brush it, but it’s so embedded it is pulling out some of your hair (which hurts very badly). after many many hours of scrubbing (to the point you think you have no skin left) and washing, you finally look presentable. your old clothes have been burned (thank goodness) and you dad has bought you a new outfit for your date. you were scrubbed so much that you are pink and sensitive to the touch, but you smell wonderful and you know that now you are clean and your skin will heal from all the scrubbing. that is more what i see purgatory like. your dad didn’t ground you or spank you for not washing, but took you out and washed you better than you could have ever done yourself and then sent you off on your date.
Tell me, who were the scriptures written by? Mere men. What makes them different than the saints, your pastor (if you have one), or anyone else for that matter? You would probably answer:
This is interesting to me because it helps me to appreciate how very differently Catholics view salvation. I believe that I don’t need to clean myself up because when I get to heaven I’ll stand before God, he’ll look at me all filthy with years of crud stuck to my skin and He’ll say, “I can’t let you in… you are filthy and nothing unclean can enter heaven.” And I will point to Jesus, and say, Please apply what He did on the cross to me. Please don’t look at my SIN, but rather at Jesus, who paid for my sins and wiped my debt clean."
At which point one of two things will happen.