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Ginger2
Guest
I actually have to questions.
The first question is why did Jesus die on the cross?
The first question is why did Jesus die on the cross?
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Dempsey1919
Guest
To defeat death and redeem mankind.
By the way, the doctrine of purgatory in no way lessens the redemptive sacrifice of the Lord.
I have a feeling that this is what you’re insinuating.
By the way, the doctrine of purgatory in no way lessens the redemptive sacrifice of the Lord.
I have a feeling that this is what you’re insinuating.
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jmcrae
Guest
There are several reasons.
First, he was accused of blasphemy for saying that he was God, and for treason for saying that he was the King of the Jews. He was accused of treason after they found out that he could not be put to death for saying that he was God. He then received the death penalty for treason, and in Rome during that time, the death penalty was carried out by means of crucifixion - they crucified him because that’s what they did to everyone who had received the death penalty.
Secondly, He really is God, and so He became both the High Priest and the Victim in the final, all-encompassing sacrifice for sins, after which no more sacrifice for sins will ever be needed.
(Prior to that time, both Jews and Gentiles made blood sacrifices for sins to God, or whatever they understood God to be, by sacrificing various different kinds of animals. They had to do this every time they sinned - they couldn’t just go to Confession, as we do today.)
Because He Himself made the sacrifice for sins in His own body, it was both perfect and eternal, meaning that it covers all sins throughout all time and all space - meaning that all we have to do is participate in the Sacraments of the Church (which is the vehicle through which His grace on the Cross comes to us) in order to have His blood wash away all the sin from our souls, most especially in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
In the Sacrament of Holy Communion, which we receive after we have made a good Confession, we are joined to His resurrection, which occurred three days after His crucifixion. In His resurrection, because He had both a divine nature and a human nature, the gates of Heaven became opened to human beings. (Before that, no human being had ever gone to Heaven before - they were waiting for Jesus in a place called Hades, or also known as the Limbo of the Fathers.)
I hope this helps you.
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Ginger2
Guest
Ok, now I have another question…what exactly do you mean by “redeem”?
BTW JM, I think you agave a very thorough and articulate answer (with the exception of the first paragragh)
BTW JM, I think you agave a very thorough and articulate answer (with the exception of the first paragragh)
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jmcrae
Guest
In the first paragraph, I was just trying to explain the historical circumstances of the crucifixion - it didn’t just happen out of nowhere; it happened in space and time, for reasons that seemed important to the people involved at the time. God worked through the events as they happened; He didn’t manipulate them - He used them for His good purposes, but He didn’t manipulate them.
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Fidelis
Guest
Jesus died on the Cross to redeem us from the guilt and from the eternal consequences of sin.
Let me anticipate your penultimate question:
Because sin has two consequences, eternal and temporal. The eternal consequences were paid for by Christ. That keeps us from going to hell, if we accept Jesus as Savior and Lord.
However, our sins have *temporal *(earthly) consequences that we are obliged to pay for. For example, if a kid breaks a window, he may be forgiven but he still has to fix the window. It is simple justice. A biblical example of this is David’s sin with Bathsheba. David was forgiven of his sin, but there was still consequences to pay (2 Samuel 11–12).
Same thing with our sins. Christ took care of the worst consequences for our sin–the eternal ones – but simple justice dictates we have some consequence to us for our actions. If not, we could go on sinning with impunity, ask for (and receive) forgiveness, but never bearing any type of personal responsibility.
We can make our amends for those earthly consequences in this life, but if not we will have to expunge them somehow before we can enter heaven since nothing unclean can enter there (Revelation 21:27). In his great mercy God, this is why God has provided Purgatory. Those in Purgatory are already on theirway to heaven; they just need to have this final cleansing before entering. Sins are not forgiven in Purgatory; but their temporal effects are purged away.
There is a long and rather contentious thread on this already, so I hope we don’t reinvent the wheel here by talking past each other, ignoring and not addressing what each other says, changing the subject, answering questions with questions, etc, etc…
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fdmilkis
Guest
I thought Elijah and Enoch were in heaven before it was open for men
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Ginger2
Guest
What is your definition of “redeemed”?
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fdmilkis
Guest
may I add to the question:
If Christ died for our sins, what did he suffer for? Wouldn’t it be so that we won’t have to suffer for our sin?
If Christ died for our sins, what did he suffer for? Wouldn’t it be so that we won’t have to suffer for our sin?
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Ginger2
Guest
JM,
To some extent one could say God manipulated these events. They tries to kill Jesus at least once earlier, but it was not his time to die so he was able to walk away.
To some extent one could say God manipulated these events. They tries to kill Jesus at least once earlier, but it was not his time to die so he was able to walk away.
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Ginger2
Guest
fdmilkis: “If Christ died for our sins, what did he suffer for? Wouldn’t it be so that we won’t have to suffer for our sin?”
That is really what I’m getting at with the first question. So far it seems Catholics believe his sacrifice was only to keep us out of hell, but not to take the punishment that we deserve upon himself.
Fidelis said the cross was only to “redeem us from the guilt and from the eternal consequences”
Before I go further, I want to be sure I understand correctly.Is the above statement by Fidelis an accurate portrayal?
And I still need to know excactly what Catholics mean by “redeem”
That is really what I’m getting at with the first question. So far it seems Catholics believe his sacrifice was only to keep us out of hell, but not to take the punishment that we deserve upon himself.
Fidelis said the cross was only to “redeem us from the guilt and from the eternal consequences”
Before I go further, I want to be sure I understand correctly.Is the above statement by Fidelis an accurate portrayal?
And I still need to know excactly what Catholics mean by “redeem”
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Fidelis
Guest
See Post #6.
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Fidelis
Guest
As well as to open up heaven to us.
Correct. Catholics (as the Bible teaches and the early Church taught) do not beleive in “substitutionary atonement,” i.e., the Protestant notion that Christ recieved the *wrath *that was our due. Christ’s act on the Cross was, instead, propitiatory, that is, it satisfied or appeased God’s justice in making satisfaction for our sins, saving us from the eternal consequences.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
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Ginger2
Guest
So then, I accept the sacrifice of Jesus so I can get into heaven.
But if I want to avoid purgatory I can make a sacrifice every time I sin?
But if I want to avoid purgatory I can make a sacrifice every time I sin?
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Gamera
Guest
Here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches about the reason for Jesus’ death:
Christ’s death is the unique and definitive sacrifice
613 Christ’s death is both the Paschal sacrifice that accomplishes the definitive redemption of men, through “the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”, and the sacrifice of the New Covenant, which restores man to communion with God by reconciling him to God through the “blood of the covenant, which was poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”.
614 This sacrifice of Christ is unique; it completes and surpasses all other sacrifices. First, it is a gift from God the Father himself, for the Father handed his Son over to sinners in order to reconcile us with himself. At the same time it is the offering of the Son of God made man, who in freedom and love offered his life to his Father through the Holy Spirit in reparation for our disobedience.
Jesus substitutes his obedience for our disobedience
615 “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who “makes himself an offering for sin”, when “he bore the sin of many”, and who “shall make many to be accounted righteous”, for “he shall bear their iniquities”. Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.
Jesus consummates his sacrifice on the cross
616 It is love “to the end” that confers on Christ’s sacrifice its value as redemption and reparation, as atonement and satisfaction. He knew and loved us all when he offered his life. Now “the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died.” No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons, and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all.
617 The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ’s sacrifice as “the source of eternal salvation” and teaches that “his most holy Passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us.” And the Church venerates his cross as she sings: “Hail, O Cross, our only hope.”
Our participation in Christ’s sacrifice
618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the “one mediator between God and men”. But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” is offered to all men. He calls his disciples to “take up [their] cross and follow [him]”, for “Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps.” In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries. This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.
IN BRIEF
619 “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures” (I Cor 15:3).
620 Our salvation flows from God’s initiative of love for us, because “he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins” (I Jn 4:10). “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself” (2 Cor 5:19).
621 Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: “This is my body which is given for you” (Lk 22:19).
622 The redemption won by Christ consists in this, that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many” (Mt 20:28), that is, he “loved [his own] to the end” (Jn 13:1), so that they might be “ransomed from the futile ways inherited from [their] fathers” (I Pt 1:18).
623 By his loving obedience to the Father, “unto death, even death on a cross” (Phil 2:8), Jesus fulfills the atoning mission (cf. Is 53:10) of the suffering Servant, who will “make many righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities” (Is 53:11; cf. Rom 5:19).
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Gamera
Guest
If I steal a dollar, then repent, Jesus will forgive me but I’ll still owe the victim a dollar. The next time I encounter the victim, I can’t just tell him, “I don’t owe you that dollar back because Jesus died on the cross so that I wouldn’t have to pay any consequences for my sins.” Sin has eternal consequences and temporal consequences. Until I pay back that dollar, I’ve got unfinished business: the temporal consequences of my sin. Paying back the victim his dollar isn’t really a “sacrifice” in my mind. It’s justice. The purpose of repaying the dollar is not punishment but purification.
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Ginger2
Guest
I am trying to reconcile this doctrine of purgatory with Scripture.
Hbr 10:12 Jesus, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Like jm was saying, Jews had to offer a sacrifice every time they sinned. But, Jesus offered one sacrifice that was perfect so it covered all sin for all time.
1Pe 3:18 says Christ took the punishment for our sins. So why do Catholics think “we are (still) obliged to pay for” our sins? (post # 6)
Hbr 10:12 Jesus, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Like jm was saying, Jews had to offer a sacrifice every time they sinned. But, Jesus offered one sacrifice that was perfect so it covered all sin for all time.
1Pe 3:18 says Christ took the punishment for our sins. So why do Catholics think “we are (still) obliged to pay for” our sins? (post # 6)
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VociMike
Guest
Nope. Where did anybody say this?
Besides, why would you want to avoid purgatory? Why would you want to avoid God’s final mercy to prepare you to be with him for ever and ever?
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Ginger2
Guest
Gamera, So your answer is “yes”?
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VociMike
Guest
Then based on your understanding of “for sins for ever,” why do people still die? And why do some people go to hell?
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