Purgatory

[jmcrae]

Vocimike,

My understanding of prayer is not limited. I started this thread so I can understand the Catholic view.

So what you mean to say is that the Catholic view of prayer is not that limited.

Quote ME:
If I was praying to get my sister out of purgatory, how will I know when she is released? Seriously, It would be silly for me to continue praying and offering indulgences for her after she joins Jesus.

She might send you a recognizable sign, if God permits her to do that.

But she also might not, in which case, she would offer your prayers that you are giving to her, on behalf of another soul who is still in Purgatory, so it would certainly not be “wasted.”

Here is my guess: You aren’t praying for a specific loved one, but all those who are still in purgatory. So it doesn’t matter when your loved one is released, because there are always souls stuck in purgatory.

Did I get it right?

This is also an excellent practice, and one that many people do, where they offer their Indulgences for “the most needy soul in Purgatory.” But if someone has just died, and there is a good chance that they are in Purgatory, then it’s probably a good idea to offer the Indulgences for that particular person.

 

[jmcrae]

Are you saying, that your prayers are good indulgences even if you are not in a state of grace, but other indulgences are only good when you are in a state of grace?

If so, why?

Indulgences are not the only kinds of prayer that we have - we have all different kinds of prayer, including extemporaneous prayer where we just talk to Jesus and say whatever we want.

Obviously, people who are in a state of mortal sin can pray; otherwise how would they go to Confession? But they can’t receive Indulgences until after they are in the state of grace, when they come out of the Confessional.

 

[VociMike]

Quote YOU:You have a very restricted understanding of the benefits of prayer, especially the benefits to the one praying.

Or perhaps you mean it is irrelevant whether the person I am praying for is still in purgatory because prayer is good for me.

Yes, this is part of the answer. The other part of the answer is that a Christian does not limit his efforts to aid and comfort others to just his own family. Your question sounded like “when will I know my sister is in heaven so I can stop praying”, which is a problematic attitude as I believe you would recognize. A more Christian approach would be to pray for all X, and especially Y who is X.

 

[Ginger2]

jm, “Indulgences are not the only kinds of prayer that we have - we have all different kinds of prayer,”

I am not interested at this time in the different types of prayers Catholics use. Nor am I ready to discuss receiving indulgences.

Rather, I am interested in the answer to this question: “Are you saying, that your prayers (for others) are good indulgences even if you are not in a state of grace, but other indulgences (offered for others) are only good when you are in a state of grace? If so, why?”

 

[cranster]

Or perhaps you mean it is irrelevant whether the person I am praying for is still in purgatory because prayer is good for me.

The prayer is applied to whom needs it the most after your loved one has been invited to the Beatific Vision.

All you’re really doing is making alot of incredible friends for eternity for the sacrifice of love you are willing to make on their behalf. You may never have had the chance to know them in life but the suffering that you are easing for them by your unselfish act of charity will make you an incredible friend forever. God loves it when we show unconditional love for each other… And yes, prayer is good for you.

 

[Ginger2]

Post #44 Sounded very abrupt. I did not mean it that way. I just want to keep the focus on one particular aspect. Once I understand the Catholic perspective we can branch out to other areas.

 

[jmcrae]

jm, “Indulgences are not the only kinds of prayer that we have - we have all different kinds of prayer,”

I am not interested at this time in the different types of prayers Catholics use. Nor am I ready to discuss receiving indulgences.

Rather, I am interested in the answer to this question: “Are you saying, that your prayers (for others) are good indulgences even if you are not in a state of grace, but other indulgences (offered for others) are only good when you are in a state of grace? If so, why?”

We can only receive Indulgences when we are in the state of grace.

We can pray other kinds of prayers at any time, especially the Act of Contrition and the prayers that we say with the priest when we go to Confession. These other kinds of prayers are not Indulgences.

 

[jpusateri]

In short, Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice at the Last Supper, instructing us to do likewise. He delivered his life on the next day at Calvary, completing the sacrifice. He was resurrected on the third day indicating the sacrifice was acceptable.

Now, WE do likewise in order to OFFER a sacrifice that is acceptable to God (the only one that is). Since the bread and wine ARE Jesus (This is my Body…this is my blood) we can actually OFFER the same sacrifice many times for our particular sins. All people at Mass are participating in that offering. (As members of the Body of Christ, the people ARE the offering too.)

He died once, but superabundantly provided the means to apply his “once for all” sacrifice to each person that lived after him.

This sacrifice, like the OT sacrifices, MUST be accompanied by repentance in order to be efficacious. So it is not just the event of offering sacrifice that is salvific, but it is the repentance as well.

Why is this so? If the offering of the sacrifice granted mechanical salvation, then there would be no need to have Faith in Jesus to be given salvation. Everyone would have it by virtue of the Crucifixion and Resurrection.

The truth is that the sacrifice was propitiatory and not a substitutionary atonement. Jesus made it possible for our repentance to attain salvation. We can not do it on our own. Jesus had to offer himself, however, he WON’T save us if we don’t want it. It has to be both.

Just wanted to clear that up.

 

[Ginger2]

jm, “We can only receive Indulgences when we are in the state of grace.”

I’m not really asking about receiving indulgences, but giving them.

However, your statement raises a question… if we can’t receive indulgences unless we are in a state of grace them how does our offering indulgences benefit anyone. If the souls in purgatory were in a state of grace why would they be in purgatory?

 

[jmcrae]

jm, “We can only receive Indulgences when we are in the state of grace.”

I’m not really asking about receiving indulgences, but giving them.

However, your statement raises a question… if we can’t receive indulgences unless we are in a state of grace them how does our offering indulgences benefit anyone. If the souls in purgatory were in a state of grace why would they be in purgatory?

The souls in Purgatory are in a state of grace - if not, then they would be in Hell; not Purgatory.

If we die outside of the state of grace, then we go directly to Hell. Purgatory is not a “second chance” to get grace.

The souls in Purgatory are working out their unfinished penances, however, and we help them to do that by praying on their behalf.

Penance is not “punishment” - rather, it is the means by which we become more holy. When we are perfectly holy, then we no longer need to do penances, and we can enter directly into Heaven.

We give the Indulgences that we receive to the souls in Purgatory at the same moment that we receive them, so we both receive and give them while in the state of grace.

 

[Ginger2]

jm, "Penance is not “punishment” - rather, it is the means by which we become more holy. When we are perfectly holy, then we no longer need to do penances, and we can enter directly into Heaven.

We give the Indulgences that we receive to the souls in Purgatory at the same moment that we receive them, so we both receive and give them while in the state of grace."

I really want to talk to you more about this, but I have other obligations.

I will be back ASAP

Thanks

 

[Mannyfit75]

I am trying to reconcile this doctrine of purgatory with Scripture.

Hbr 10:12 Jesus, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever

, sat down on the right hand of God;

Like jm was saying, Jews had to offer a sacrifice every time they sinned. But, Jesus offered one sacrifice that was perfect so it covered all sin for all time.

1Pe 3:18 says Christ took the punishment for our sins. So why do Catholics think “we are (still) obliged to pay for” our sins? (post # 6)

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

**
1 Cor. 3:15** – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).
**
1 Cor. 3:17** - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

 

[mtr01]

The souls in Purgatory are in a state of grace - if not, then they would be in Hell; not Purgatory.

If we die outside of the state of grace, then we go directly to Hell. Purgatory is not a “second chance” to get grace.

The souls in Purgatory are working out their unfinished penances, however, and we help them to do that by praying on their behalf.

Penance is not “punishment” - rather, it is the means by which we become more holy. When we are perfectly holy, then we no longer need to do penances, and we can enter directly into Heaven.

We give the Indulgences that we receive to the souls in Purgatory at the same moment that we receive them, so we both receive and give them while in the state of grace.

I know this is off-topic, but I thought I would clear up what seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of indulgences (hopefully it will alleviate the “hang-up” over indulgences on the thread).

Indulgences are tied to penance, not to purgatory, per se. When one receives an indulgence, one is receiving a reduction in the amount of penance he or she has to do. This is easier to see in times past when it was not uncommon to receive a penance that lasted for months, even years. So, by virtue of the power of the keys, the Church granted a lessening of the duration of penance for certain pious practices. This is why, in the past, indulgences were specified by number of days (e.g. a 180 day indulgence). What this meant is that a person who received that indulgence would have the duration of their penance reduced by the specified number of days. It is precisely because some started incorrectly believing that indulgences were “time off purgatory” that the Church changed indulgences to “partial” and “plenary”.

 

[jmcrae]

I know this is off-topic, but I thought I would clear up what seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of indulgences (hopefully it will alleviate the “hang-up” over indulgences on the thread).

Indulgences are tied to penance, not to purgatory, per se. When one receives an indulgence, one is receiving a reduction in the amount of penance he or she has to do. This is easier to see in times past when it was not uncommon to receive a penance that lasted for months, even years. So, by virtue of the power of the keys, the Church granted a lessening of the duration of penance for certain pious practices. This is why, in the past, indulgences were specified by number of days (e.g. a 180 day indulgence). What this meant is that a person who received that indulgence would have the duration of their penance reduced by the specified number of days. It is precisely because some started incorrectly believing that indulgences were “time off purgatory” that the Church changed indulgences to “partial” and “plenary”.

Excellent points. I have to admit that I’m not at all clear on how that works in the practical realm, though. (When we receive penances in Confession, are they already attached to Indulgences? Because obviously, the few prayers that we normally receive today aren’t anything close to the seven years in sack cloth and ashes received, for example, by St. Margaret of Cortona when she first began to dedicate her life to Christ.)

I do know that the reason we share our Indulgences with the souls in Purgatory in order to help reduce their penances, as well.

 

[jmcrae]

Like jm was saying, Jews had to offer a sacrifice every time they sinned. But, Jesus offered one sacrifice that was perfect so it covered all sin for all time.

Keep in mind that they also still had to make reparations for their sins, and they also still had to pray - the lamb of sacrifice didn’t erase the temporal consequences of their sins, and they still had to deal with that - if they defrauded the poor, for example, then they would still have to restore whatever they stole, and pray on behalf of the poor, as well as make a blood sacrifice in atonement for their sins. It was never either/or - we always still have to become reconciled with our fellow human beings as well as with God, and we still have to work on becoming more holy over time - the blood of the Old Testament sacrifices never took the place of those two things, and neither does Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross.

 

[ChrisWRIT]

I’m not really asking about receiving indulgences, but giving them.
However, your statement raises a question… if we can’t receive indulgences unless we are in a state of grace them how does our offering indulgences benefit anyone. If the souls in purgatory were in a state of grace why would they be in purgatory?

Nothing which is not perfect can enter heaven. To be in a state of grace is NOT to be in a state of perfection.

Purgatory is where Jesus sacrifice is completely applied to us, and we are finally perfected .

We cannot “give” or offer indulgences, whether we are in a state of grace or not. Only the Church (through the pope and bishops) has the power to grant indulgences.

One may gain an indulgence from the Church depending on several circumstances. One must be free from the guilt of mortal sin. Confession and Communion are usually required, It is also necessary to have the intention, at least habitual, of gaining the indulgence. Finally, from the nature of the case, it is obvious that one must perform the good works – prayers, alms deeds, visits to a church, etc. – which are prescribed in the granting of an indulgence.

Chris

 

[ChrisWRIT]

Indulgences are tied to penance, not to purgatory, per se. When one receives an indulgence, one is receiving a reduction in the amount of penance he or she has to do.

Good point.

As an addendum, I note that the Church has only jurisdiction to grant indulgences to the living - only God can reduce the amount of penance needed by those in Purgatory. As such, the Church cannot grant indulgences to those in Purgatory, but only petition God to accept works of satisfaction and consideration to shorten the suffering of those in Purgatory

Chris

 

[jmcrae]

Good point.

As an addendum, I note that the Church has only jurisdiction to grant indulgences to the living - only God can reduce the amount of penance needed by those in Purgatory. As such, the Church cannot grant indulgences to those in Purgatory, but only petition God to accept works of satisfaction and consideration to shorten the suffering of those in Purgatory

Chris

The Church does not, but if I as an individual gain an Indulgence, I can give it to the souls in Purgatory rather than keep it for myself.

After all, I only need one for myself, but I have the ability to gain one Indulgence every day, should I so choose - over the course of a year, I can gain 365 Indulgences, but I certainly don’t need them all for myself - I can - and ought to - give them to the souls in Purgatory.

 

[Ginger2]

Oh my…my, my, my…

“The Church does not, but if I as an individual gain an Indulgence, I can give it to the souls in Purgatory rather than keep it for myself.”

Maybe we need to back up a little.

What exactly is an indulgence?

How does one earn an indulgence?

What specifically does an indulgence do for the one possessing it?

 

[ChrisWRIT]

The Church does not, but if I as an individual gain an Indulgence, I can give it to the souls in Purgatory rather than keep it for myself.

After all, I only need one for myself, but I have the ability to gain one Indulgence every day, should I so choose - over the course of a year, I can gain 365 Indulgences, but I certainly don’t need them all for myself - I can - and ought to - give them to the souls in Purgatory.

I know the Catechism says that “Indulgences may be applied to the living or the dead.”, but it doesn’t seem to say how. Since the Church has no jurisdiction to apply them directly to souls in Purgatory (at least specifically), how do they get applied?

I agree that we can “give” indulgences that we gain to souls in Purgatory, but wouldn’t that be possible only by asking God to accept them for those (specific) souls?

Chris