Purgatory

[clmowry]

Well that’s about as good as I can do. Hopefully that helps.

Chuck

 

[Ginger2]

jm,

Yes, paying back the dollar and often an amount of restitution also.

Here is the problem I am struggling with:

While I am alive, I can apologize, and correct my error, which may include more than just undoing the wrong I’ve done. (ie restitution)

But when I am in purgatory, I cannot give back the dollar. Your indulgence earned from a certain prayer does not replace the missing dollar, 5000 good deals do not replace the dollar. $1 million dollars to your favorite Catholic charity does not replace that one dollar I stole.

On a larger scale…If I accidentally run over a child, there is no way for me to make restitution. Not EVEN by giving up all my worldly possessions and going into prison at hard labor the rest of my days. I cannot give there child back to the parents and siblings. I cannot remove their loss nor can I ease their pain.

 

[clmowry]

jm,

Yes, paying back the dollar and often an amount of restitution also.

Here is the problem I am struggling with:

While I am alive, I can apologize, and correct my error, which may include more than just undoing the wrong I’ve done. (ie restitution)

But when I am in purgatory, I cannot give back the dollar. Your indulgence earned from a certain prayer does not replace the missing dollar, 5000 good deals do not replace the dollar. $1 million dollars to your favorite Catholic charity does not replace that one dollar I stole.

On a larger scale…If I accidentally run over a child, there is no way for me to make restitution. Not EVEN by giving up all my worldly possessions and going into prison at hard labor the rest of my days. I cannot give there child back to the parents and siblings. I cannot remove their loss nor can I ease their pain.

I feel your being too legalistic and literal in your thinking.

It’s not about an “eye for and eye and tooth for a tooth”.

It’s about having a change of heart and doing what you can to make up for the pain and suffering caused by your sin.

Not so much that you “pay for” or “pay back” God or your fellow man, but so that you grow more Christlike in the way you approach God and show Love for your fellow man.

Chuck

 

[ChrisWRIT]

jm,
Yes, paying back the dollar and often an amount of restitution also.

Here is the problem I am struggling with:

While I am alive, I can apologize, and correct my error, which may include more than just undoing the wrong I’ve done. (ie restitution)

But when I am in purgatory, I cannot give back the dollar. Your indulgence earned from a certain prayer does not replace the missing dollar, 5000 good deals do not replace the dollar. $1 million dollars to your favorite Catholic charity does not replace that one dollar I stole.

On a larger scale…If I accidentally run over a child, there is no way for me to make restitution. Not EVEN by giving up all my worldly possessions and going into prison at hard labor the rest of my days. I cannot give there child back to the parents and siblings. I cannot remove their loss nor can I ease their pain.

True, but that seems to be confusing the “pay back” analogy with the what temporal punishment is. The temporal (or “temporary”) consequences of sin are not simply “turning back the clock” on something wrong we have done.

Perhaps it would be worth trying a different analogy.

We are all born with the stain of original sin. The temporary consequences are physical death, along with increased pain in childbirth, changed relationships with the earth, and with animals, among others.

When we are baptized, we are washed clean of that stain. But we are still subject to the temporary punishment of physical death (temporary since we will be raised again by God, if we have died in Him.)

Or am I muddying the water more?::doh2:

Chris

 

[Ginger2]

Chuck "It’s not about an “eye for and eye and tooth for a tooth”.

It’s about having a change of heart and doing what you can to make up for the pain and suffering caused by your sin.

Not so much that you “pay for” or “pay back” God or your fellow man, but so that you grow more Christlike in the way you approach God and show Love for your fellow man."

I couldn’t agree more!!!

So how does spending time in purgatory help you do that?

Are they suffering? I’ve heard opposing views in this as to whether purgatory is a place of suffering or not.

How does what I am doing here on earth effect the person in purgatory (ie make up for the bad they’ve done and/or change their heart)

 

[Ginger2]

Chris, You haven’t “muddied the water”

I agree with what you have said.

But I don’t know how purgatory plays in to all of this.

 

[jmcrae]

jm,

Yes, paying back the dollar and often an amount of restitution also.

Here is the problem I am struggling with:

While I am alive, I can apologize, and correct my error, which may include more than just undoing the wrong I’ve done. (ie restitution)

But when I am in purgatory, I cannot give back the dollar. Your indulgence earned from a certain prayer does not replace the missing dollar, 5000 good deals do not replace the dollar. $1 million dollars to your favorite Catholic charity does not replace that one dollar I stole.

That’s true - but while you are in Purgatory you can deal with the root cause of the sin, and my prayers can help you do that.

I don’t really know how prayer works, but I know that it does work, and I’m sure you’ve also got examples in your own life of little miracles of answered prayer, just as I do - because when we pray for someone, amazing things happen both for them and for us.

The dollar itself is no longer the issue, by the time you get to Purgatory, because, as you have pointed out, justice is no longer possible after you are dead. But that bit of insecurity or mean-spiritedness that caused you to take the dollar in the first place - that could still be there, and that’s what needs to be eradicated before you can go to Heaven. After all, Heaven doesn’t need people who experience the temptation to steal, even if it is only to walk off with St. Peter’s pen by accident, when he asks you to sign in at the door.

On a larger scale…If I accidentally run over a child, there is no way for me to make restitution. Not EVEN by giving up all my worldly possessions and going into prison at hard labor the rest of my days. I cannot give there child back to the parents and siblings. I cannot remove their loss nor can I ease their pain.

Certainly not. On the other hand, just because we cannot do that, doesn’t mean that we can’t or shouldn’t feel sorrowful, or feel the need to do whatever is in our power to help the family of that child.

Someone was recently letting me know of a boy (poor child!) who was in the same house when his friend committed suicide this past Saturday evening.

The friend had been threatening to commit suicide all evening, but this boy just thought he was being melodramatic and seeking attention - he didn’t take the threat seriously at all, so he went to bed - and then all of a sudden, BANG, his friend is lying dead on the kitchen floor - well, there is absolutely nothing that kid can do to bring the other kid back to life - but, he has spent the past four days crying and apologizing to the family over and over again. He is keenly aware of his fault in the matter, and he is deeply sorrowful for his sin of omission, to not call 9-1-1 when the other boy first starting uttering threats against himself.

The family is being very good to him, and telling him that there was nothing that he could have done, even though they know perfectly well what he should have done - they are forgiving him and trying to help him, as well - they are even thinking of taking him to Church with them.

But imagine if this boy were just to say, in a casual and cavalier manner, “What was I supposed to do? As far as I could tell, he was putting on a show. I got tired of listening to him whine, so I went to bed. How can I possibly be blamed for what happened next?” What if he were to make some kind of a joke about the situation? (After all, it happened, and there is nothing he can do about it now, so what difference does it make how he responds?)

How do you think the family would react to that kind of a statement? (Probably not very well. In fact, if he were to take that attitude, they’d probably ask to have him arrested and charged with criminal negligence.)

So, even in situations where there is nothing we can do to restore justice, there are still important things we need to do - for our own sake, and for the sake of those around us - not to “make up for” what happened, because obviously that is impossible - but to show that we are sorry for our sins, and to show that we want to become better people than we were before - in short, to increase in our personal holiness, and to become imitators of Christ in all things.

We not only have to show this attitude of sorrow for sins to the people whom we have hurt, we also have to show it to God, which means that our sorrow has to be real, because of course God can see through any play-acting we may be doing. That means that we have to develop a tender and sensitive conscience, that really does feel pain when we sin - and in order to do this, of course, we need to be developing habits of virtue, and not hardening ourselves with habits of sin.

 

[clmowry]

Chuck "It’s not about an “eye for and eye and tooth for a tooth”.

It’s about having a change of heart and doing what you can to make up for the pain and suffering caused by your sin.

Not so much that you “pay for” or “pay back” God or your fellow man, but so that you grow more Christlike in the way you approach God and show Love for your fellow man."

I couldn’t agree more!!!

So how does spending time in purgatory help you do that?

Are they suffering? I’ve heard opposing views in this as to whether purgatory is a place of suffering or not.

How does what I am doing here on earth effect the person in purgatory (ie make up for the bad they’ve done and/or change their heart)

Did you see my post #89 and #100?

Chuck

 

[Fidelis]

Here is the problem I am struggling with:

While I am alive, I can apologize, and correct my error, which may include more than just undoing the wrong I’ve done. (ie restitution)

But when I am in purgatory, I cannot give back the dollar. Your indulgence earned from a certain prayer does not replace the missing dollar, 5000 good deals do not replace the dollar. $1 million dollars to your favorite Catholic charity does not replace that one dollar I stole.

On a larger scale…If I accidentally run over a child, there is no way for me to make restitution. Not EVEN by giving up all my worldly possessions and going into prison at hard labor the rest of my days. I cannot give there child back to the parents and siblings. I cannot remove their loss nor can I ease their pain.

Making amends for the wrong we do is not always a case of strict restitution. For example, if I steal $1000.00 from you, but get caught and pay it back, do I still not have to go to jail for the theft? There is a penalty I personally have to pay for doing the crime in the first place, sorry though I may be. Going to prison doesn’t really accomplish anything as far as this crime goes, but simple justice demands I pay some penalty. If not, I could go on stealing with impunity.

Same with murder. If I go to prison for life or am executed for commiting the crime, will that bring the person back? No, but simple justice demands that I pay some penalty for my action.

Thus, it is not a matter of “paying back” anything in Purgatory that will literally undo the wrong we did, but of simple justice as a consequence of our sinful action.

 

[Fidelis]

So how does spending time in purgatory help you do that?

Are they suffering? I’ve heard opposing views in this as to whether purgatory is a place of suffering or not.

How does what I am doing here on earth effect the person in purgatory (ie make up for the bad they’ve done and/or change their heart)

That’s three questions!

I’ve already answered the second one in Post# 74. I hope we’re not starting to retread the same patch of ground!

The nature of Purgatory is unknown, but it’s “suffering” differs essentially (in it’s very essence) from that of hell.

In other words, it isn’t like the pain of hell. It’s “pains” and purging “fire” are the spiritual equivalent of our earthly penances.

Those in Purgatory endure this cleansing with joy, knowing they are headed for heaven. Those suffering the torments of hell, on the other hand, have no hope, which adds to their suffering.

 

[Ginger2]

Fidelis, If you get caught is not the same as if you turn yourself in.

But I get your point.

You are saying, as has been said already, you have to pay a consequence in purgatory. Then purgatory is where you are punished for your sins. And that punishment purifies you?

 

[jmcrae]

Chris, You haven’t “muddied the water”

I agree with what you have said.

But I don’t know how purgatory plays in to all of this.

When you were first learning to share with your brothers and sisters, you experienced emotional pain, and you cried (if you were a normal child). Yet, sharing with brothers and sisters is not a “punishment,” even though at the time that you are first learning to do this, it feels like one - especially since, quite often, your parents and siblings are yelling at you for not sharing.

Purgatory is like that experience of first learning to share - of 'letting go" of that toy, so that someone else can have a turn.

In Purgatory, we are letting go of everything so it’s painful in the same way that learning to share was painful.

After you get into the habit of sharing, it becomes fun - it’s a source of joy, and we can’t imagine ever not wanting to share, but when we are little children, it’s painful to learn how to share.

The pain of Purgatory is that same kind of pain - the pain of learning how to do things that, when we arrive in Heaven, we will do with great joy, and no pain at all.

 

[jmcrae]

Fidelis, If you get caught is not the same as if you turn yourself in.

But I get your point.

You are saying, as has been said already, you have to pay a consequence in purgatory. Then purgatory is where you are punished for your sins. And that punishment purifies you?

We are purified of our sins in Purgatory. Which is painful. I don’t know if it’s right to say that we are being “punished” in Purgatory - that doesn’t seem like the right word to use.

 

[Ginger2]

See this is why I wish one person or several people would come up with one answer.

jm, bad example about sharing. I always loved to share. It never bothered me. Altho, I did quickly learn that other children weren’t like that.

Your description of purgatory would be a joy for me.

Anyway, I don’t think we are getting anywhere with this. But I appreciate the several of you who tried so very hard and were so very patient with an ignorant protestant like me.

I am not going to ask my last question as I haven’t seen a clear consensus of purgatory.

But I will ask this: What happened to the crimminal on the cross next to Jesus. Purgatory or Heaven?

I won’t be debating this with you. Just curious what you think and why.

 

[jmcrae]

See this is why I wish one person or several people would come up with one answer.

jm, bad example about sharing. I always loved to share. It never bothered me. Altho, I did quickly learn that other children weren’t like that.

Your description of purgatory would be a joy for me.

Anyway, I don’t think we are getting anywhere with this. But I appreciate the several of you who tried so very hard and were so very patient with an ignorant protestant like me.

I am not going to ask my last question as I haven’t seen a clear consensus of purgatory.

But I will ask this: What happened to the crimminal on the cross next to Jesus. Purgatory or Heaven?

Neither, since Purgatory didn’t exist yet, and Heaven was not yet opened up to the human race - he went to Paradise (a place of the dead) with Jesus, and then to Heaven later, after it was opened up to the human race.

I don’t know whether he would have had to go through Purgatory - he literally suffered and died on the Cross with Jesus, and that may have been all the penance he ever needed. (A bit of off-topic trivia for you: Catholics know the “good thief” as St. Dismas and we ask him to pray for people who are in need of a death-bed conversion. )

 

[Fidelis]

Fidelis, If you get caught is not the same as if you turn yourself in.

But I get your point.

Actually it is. There are any number of persons in prison who turned themselves in. Perhaps they got a lighter sentence, but they still do some time. No matter; as long as you get my point.

You are saying, as has been said already, you have to pay a consequence in purgatory. Then purgatory is where you are punished for your sins. And that punishment purifies you?

Don’t forget that Purgatory has two functions:

1. “Punishment” for the consequences due for temporal (earthly) sins that have already been forgiven. This is mostly what we have been discussing here.
2. There is also purification going on for those attachments to venial sins which, though forgiven, we were not able to rid ourselves of in this life. For example, even with God’s grace, if a Christian struggles with the sin of gossip their whole life and they die imperfectly free of this bad habit, the remainder will be purged away in Purgatory.

Similarly, say someone commited some kind of gross sin. They have repented and not commited that sin again. But maybe they think about it from time to time and actually draw pleasure from the memory of that sin. This person is still attached to that sin. And this too, will be purged away.

As Revelation 21:27says “Nothing unclean shall enter heaven”

 

[Ginger2]

It’s not the same Fidelis. The person who turns himself in does it out of remorse for what he has done.

The person who gets caught generally only feels bad about getting caught.

 

[Fidelis]

See this is why I wish one person or several people would come up with one answer.

jm, bad example about sharing. I always loved to share. It never bothered me. Altho, I did quickly learn that other children weren’t like that.

Your description of purgatory would be a joy for me.

Anyway, I don’t think we are getting anywhere with this. But I appreciate the several of you who tried so very hard and were so very patient with an ignorant protestant like me.

I am not going to ask my last question as I haven’t seen a clear consensus of purgatory.

Thank you, as a Protestant enquirer, for being gracious and non-belligerent. It is a breath of fresh air in these forums. Hopefully we have helped you at least in some small way.

BTW, have you read any of the articles I recommended? I promise you, they are short, non-technical, and will answer many of your questions.

But I will ask this: What happened to the crimminal on the cross next to Jesus. Purgatory or Heaven?

I won’t be debating this with you. Just curious what you think and why.

Hard to say.

We know he did not go to hell.

We also know he did not go to heaven right away, since (a) heaven was not open to anyone until Jesus ascencion into heaven 40-some odd days later. Same thing with Purgatory.

And (b) even though Jesus said “You will be with me this day in Paradise” we know that Jesus himself did not go to heaven that day, first going to the Limbo of the Fathers (or Hades, or Sheol, or wherever the OT righteous dead went) for three days, then he rose and walked with his disciples for 40 days, and THEN ascended and opened up heaven for us.

My guess is that he went to Sheol until Jesus opened heaven, forty days after Easter.

 

[Ginger2]

Very interesting. Then purgatory was created at or about the same time as heaven’s doors were reopened. At the resurrection?

 

[Fidelis]

It’s not the same Fidelis. The person who turns himself in does it out of remorse for what he has done.

The person who gets caught generally only feels bad about getting caught.

Yes, but there is still a penalty to be paid, remorseful or no. That’s the point.