Purgatory

[jmcrae]

Very interesting. Then purgatory was created at or about the same time as heaven’s doors were reopened. At the resurrection?

At the Ascension, I think.

I have to check on that, because sometimes I think it’s at the Resurrection, and other times I think it’s at the Ascension.

 

[Fidelis]

Very interesting. Then purgatory was created at or about the same time as heaven’s doors were reopened.

Certainly, since everyone in Purgatory is headed for heaven.

Before Christ’s death, resurrection, and ascension, heaven was not open at all, generally speaking. Purgatory would have served no purpose.

Similarly, at the end of time, Purgatory will be emptied and cease to exist. It was created solely out of God’s great mercy.

At the resurrection?

At the Ascension. Jesus death, resurrection and ascencion were of a piece for our salvation. As Jesus said, unless he departed the Holy Spirit could not come. It is by the Spirit that we are “born again” unto new life.

St. Paul, I believe, makes a similar point, though the passage escapes me right now.

 

[Ginger2]

Fidelis,

Yes, that is according to man’s law.

Someone compared purgatory to learning to share. Using that analogy I would say that the one who turned himself in already learned that lesson, but the man who got caught may not learn the lesson even after the punishment is completed.

I can’t help but be puzzled at the thought of some people needing “400” or more years to “learn to share”. When someone uses that analogy it appears more like they are being “beat into submission”

It’s reminiscent of standing a stubborn child in the corner until he apologizes. But he’s too stubborn and won’t give in and you have to let him out eventually.

Ah, not trying to open up the discussion again. Just saying it’s a poor analogy

 

[clmowry]

My guess is that he went to Sheol until Jesus opened heaven, forty days after Easter.

I share your speculation. Christ says today you’ll be with me in “Paradise.”

I find the word “heaven” used all over the new testament. It’s interesting that this is not the word used here.

Chuck

 

[Ginger2]

Fidelis, “We know he did not go to hell. We also know he did not go to heaven right away, since (a) heaven was not open to anyone until Jesus ascencion into heaven 40-some odd days later. Same thing with Purgatory.
Jesus said “You will be with me this day in Paradise” we know that Jesus himself did not go to heaven that day, first going to the Limbo of the Fathers (or Hades, or Sheol, or wherever the OT righteous dead went) for three days, then he rose and walked with his disciples for 40 days, and THEN ascended and opened up heaven for us.”

From a protestant view point, the criminal on the cross could have gone to heaven right away because Jesus is God. And while Jesus died on the cross, God the Father was still in heaven/paradise taking care of His business. It is possible for him to have been in heaven with God immediately because Jesus is God.

 

[Ginger2]

Oh, how hard it is for me to stop talking.

 

[jmcrae]

Fidelis, “We know he did not go to hell. We also know he did not go to heaven right away, since (a) heaven was not open to anyone until Jesus ascencion into heaven 40-some odd days later. Same thing with Purgatory.
Jesus said “You will be with me this day in Paradise” we know that Jesus himself did not go to heaven that day, first going to the Limbo of the Fathers (or Hades, or Sheol, or wherever the OT righteous dead went) for three days, then he rose and walked with his disciples for 40 days, and THEN ascended and opened up heaven for us.”

From a protestant view point, the criminal on the cross could have gone to heaven right away because Jesus is God. And while Jesus died on the cross, God the Father was still in heaven/paradise taking care of His business. It is possible for him to have been in heaven with God immediately because Jesus is God.

Of course, since God the Father in Heaven and God the Son on the Cross are the same God - but the gates of Heaven weren’t opened up to the human race until the Ascension, 43 days later. No human being - not St. Dismas - none of the Old Testament Saints - nobody - could have been in Heaven before the Ascension, not because God wasn’t there, but because the human nature of Jesus Christ had not yet blown the locks off the gates.

 

[Fidelis]

Yes, that is according to man’s law.

Yes, and many (thought not all) of man’s laws are built upon God’s law, both Natural Law (which comes from God --Romans 1–2, Wisdom 13) and Revealed (Sacred Scripture) Law.

I happen to believe simple justice is based on all of God’s law.

 

[Fidelis]

From a protestant view point, the criminal on the cross could have gone to heaven right away because Jesus is God. And while Jesus died on the cross, God the Father was still in heaven/paradise taking care of His business. It is possible for him to have been in heaven with God immediately because Jesus is God.

Agreed–God CAN do anything he wants to. But the evidence from the specific passage under discussion and the biblical information about when heaven was, in fact, opened (as jmcrae pointed out) indicates that in this case, it would appear the Good Thief did not go straight to heaven.

 

[Fidelis]

Oh, how hard it is for me to stop talking.

Especially during an enjoyable conversation.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I am not going to ask my last question as I haven’t seen a clear consensus of purgatory.

My dear Ginger, if you are confused, I am lost as to what your question or goal was to begin with…there were so many tangents.

If you want an official Church teaching, or “consensus” on Purgatory or indulgences, it is probably best to go to the Catechism (as others have posted). We as individuals take differing approaches to describe things.

And finally, if you prefer one more lay-person’s philosophy , you know a purgatory has to exist. For here on earth we are prone to sin. In heaven we are not. So after death you know God must make in us a transformation of our nature. We call that Purgatory.

 

[Ginger2]

Marcopolo,

Protestants will all go thru a purification, also.

I Corinthians 15:50 This I declare, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The difference I see from this thread is that Catholics go to purgatory to work on changing themselves. Protestants are not capable of changing themselves and depend fully on God to chance us.

Lucky for us, God can do it in an instant.

 

[jpusateri]

PS: Paying back the dollar you stole is *justice. *

Excellent point. God is both divinely merciful AND just. His mercy is clear in his giving of Himself. He would violate his own just nature to not demand the paying back of the dollar.

 

[Vincent]

The difference I see from this thread is that Catholics go to purgatory to work on changing themselves.

Changing themselves? That doesn’t sound Catholic . . .

This, however, **does **. . .

Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of **Christ *who ***removes from them the remnants of imperfection

Pope John Paul II
General Audience
Wednesday, 4 August 1999
Emphasis Added
​

Christ is the agent who purifies, not ourselves.

 

[jpusateri]

Lucky for us, God can do it in an instant.

Perhaps some of the discussion has been derailed by the difference in what God CAN do and what he DID.

I think we all agree that God CAN do anything.

In his revealed Word, he DID only some things. It is my belief that he is SOOOO powerful that he is accomplishing EVERYTHING he wants through the specific things that he did do.

He set laws in our nature that later we found to correspond in his revealed law. He COULD have built us differently, but he didn’t.

I think we have to come to terms with the fact that, out of an infinity of choices, he MADE some of those choices and therefore others are no longer possible if God is to keep his own Word. He cannot, for instance, allow the Church to be prevailed against. He said it wouldn’t be.

Insofar as Purgatory is concerned, we know so little. The Church itself can only pass down what it knows and that may not be enough to satisfy all our questions.

We need to come to terms with the fact that Purgatory is compatible with both God’s mercy and his justice. It is VERY merciful to allow a path for a person who repented but died to enter heaven without violating God’s justice (and his own Words) because the person is still unclean.

In non-Catholic Christianity you have to assume God does something behind-the-scenes to make it all right (cooks the books to make all accounts add up or else tosses the books out). Is that fair or just to those who suffered for the sake of their own and His purity?

Again, I believe God is SO powerful that he does not need to resort to sleight-of-hand. He does it all right in front of us and reveals HOW he does it through his Word (written and unwritten) and we can only marvel at his power and majesty. We can only consent to receive it.

Our God is an AWESOME God!

 

[jpusateri]

Christ is the agent who purifies, not ourselves.

He is indeed. But we are not chemicals (or not JUST chemicals) to be transformed irresistibly by an agent.

Many people go unchanged through many potentially transformative events.

The point being made I think is that we need to allow the change. To consent to it. This is the DOING. Consenting. Allowing.

God gives the gift, but we have to consent to receive it.

It’s not much perhaps, but SO crucial.

 

[clmowry]

The difference I see from this thread is that Catholics go to purgatory to work on changing themselves. Protestants are not capable of changing themselves and depend fully on God to chance us.

It would appear you either haven’t done any of the suggested reading, or completely misunderstood it all.

 

[Ginger2]

And the Bible says He will do it in an instant! I Corinthians 15:52

I said Catholics sound like we have to perfect ourselves in purgatory. If we haven’t done enough good works on Earth to make up for our sins. Even tho we are forgiven, we still have to pay the penalty.

400 hundred years in purgatory is a long time. but what about when Jesus returns? Are those who died the day before and would have otherwise spent four hundred years in purgatory going to get out without paying the full penalty? Or will purgatory continue to exist until they all serve their time?

 

[Stephen_C]

And the Bible says He will do it in an instant! I Corinthians 15:52

I said Catholics sound like we have to perfect ourselves in purgatory. If we haven’t done enough good works on Earth to make up for our sins. Even tho we are forgiven, we still have to pay the penalty.

400 hundred years in purgatory is a long time. but what about when Jesus returns? Are those who died the day before and would have otherwise spent four hundred years in purgatory going to get out without paying the full penalty? Or will purgatory continue to exist until they all serve their time?

Penalty is not a good word for it. It is the final cleansing. Kinda like taking a shower…We do want (and it is required) to look our best right?

 

[MarcoPolo]

I said Catholics sound like we have to perfect ourselves in purgatory.

I don’t see anyone saying that. In fact I just read someone clarify that we do NOT purify ourselves. And I will say it again. God does. As well, the Catholic Church has no position on the “length” of time in Purgatory, whether it be an instant or not. Time in heaven likely is very different in relation to us here. So no problems there.

If that all makes sense, I think we have the same understanding of purification!