Purgatory?

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steve_b said:
My compliments to your well reasoned example. I have a question (ref: what’s in red). What is the Orthodox position for a person’s destination if one dies spiritually sick minus mortal sin (recognizing Catholic and Orthodox may have differences in our understanding of mortal and venial sin)?

On the old forum (which can’t be accessed anymore) this was discussed but I can’t remember now what the answers were.
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Hell :eek:

We are given all of the divine energy (graces) necessary while here on earth to be completely healed by the Divine Physician, Jesus Christ. If we chose to remain in our sickness (sin - no real destinction between venial or mortal) then we have chosen death eternally.

This is why it is soooo very important that we engage in spiritual warfare and fight against our passions until we overcome.

The Church has not ever said that someone specifically has gone to hell, but the Scriptures are clear that most people do (Wide is the road to perdition, etc.).

This is one of the reasons the Church Fathers spoke out against Purgatory so passionately is because of the fruits of this teaching…well try hard, but don’t worry if you fail then God will still let you slide into Heaven…but Orthodox say, NO WAY to that. We must accomplish while on earth what God has given us the tools necessary to accomplish - there are no second chances.

We must engage in spiritual warfare & win, with the help of God - for nothing is impossible for Him! Thanks be to God for His Mercy!

I am struggling. Please pray for me.
 
Marina14 said:
Hell :eek:

We are given all of the divine energy (graces) necessary while here on earth to be completely healed by the Divine Physician, Jesus Christ. If we chose to remain in our sickness (sin - no real destinction between venial or mortal) then we have chosen death eternally.

This is why it is soooo very important that we engage in spiritual warfare and fight against our passions until we overcome.

The Church has not ever said that someone specifically has gone to hell, but the Scriptures are clear that most people do (Wide is the road to perdition, etc.).

This is one of the reasons the Church Fathers spoke out against Purgatory so passionately is because of the fruits of this teaching…well try hard, but don’t worry if you fail then God will still let you slide into Heaven…but Orthodox say, NO WAY to that. We must accomplish while on earth what God has given us the tools necessary to accomplish - there are no second chances.

We must engage in spiritual warfare & win, with the help of God - for nothing is impossible for Him! Thanks be to God for His Mercy!

I am struggling. Please pray for me.
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I** had an Orthodox priest tell me that, technically, orthodoxy believes in “levels” of Heaven which could be construed as the Catholic Church’s version of purification of the soul (purgatory).**
 
peary said:
I** had an Orthodox priest tell me that, technically, orthodoxy believes in “levels” of Heaven which could be construed as the Catholic Church’s version of purification of the soul (purgatory).**
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The Church Fathers do speak about the “many Mansions” in Heaven, but if you read them and compare that to the Doctrine of Purgatory you will see that there is no correlation.

Some of the Church Fathers indicate that one will end up one mansion vs. another based on what they had struggled against & overcame while on earth. Each of our struggles are different. Read the Church Fathers on this issue and you will understand it has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.
 
The true Orthodoxy teaches of one eternal fire alone (rather than temproal), understanding that the temporal punishment of sinful souls consists in that they for a time depart into a place of darkness and sorrow, are punished by being deprived of the Divine light, and are purified—that is, liberated from this place of darkness and woe—by means of prayers, the Holy Eucharist, and deeds of charity, and not by fire. The orthodox also believe, that until the union of the souls to the bodies, as the souls of sinners do not suffer full punishment, so also those of the saints do not enjoy entire bliss.

That is how it was explained to me. And, to me, this does not negate the concept of Purgatory. Some orthodox tell me yes; some tell me they have never heard of it. But the above IS the official teaching, so I have been told. And it was quoted to me by an Orthodox priest from a council held in Florence.
 
peary said:
The true Orthodoxy teaches of one eternal fire alone (rather than temproal), understanding that the temporal punishment of sinful souls consists in that they for a time depart into a place of darkness and sorrow, are punished by being deprived of the Divine light, and are purified—that is, liberated from this place of darkness and woe—by means of prayers, the Holy Eucharist, and deeds of charity, and not by fire. The orthodox also believe, that until the union of the souls to the bodies, as the souls of sinners do not suffer full punishment, so also those of the saints do not enjoy entire bliss.

That is how it was explained to me. And, to me, this does not negate the concept of Purgatory. Some orthodox tell me yes; some tell me they have never heard of it. But the above IS the official teaching, so I have been told. And it was quoted to me by an Orthodox priest from a council held in Florence.
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Really which Orthodox priest of that council are you refering to?

I’ve read the Orthodox writings of the council of Florence - a council which the entire Orthodox Church rejected I might add - nothing like that in there.

Read “Life After Death” you can obtain it from St. Anthony’s Monastery’s Bookstore in AZ. It will give you a clear concise picture of the official Orthodox stance of the Latin’s Purgatory and what the official Orthodox stance is re: the dead & where they end up initially after dead and then after Judgement Day when the dead are reunited with their tranformed bodies.
 
Marina14 said:
Really which Orthodox priest of that council are you refering to?

I’ve read the Orthodox writings of the council of Florence - a council which the entire Orthodox Church rejected I might add - nothing like that in there.

Read “Life After Death” you can obtain it from St. Anthony’s Monastery’s Bookstore in AZ. It will give you a clear concise picture of the official Orthodox stance of the Latin’s Purgatory and what the official Orthodox stance is re: the dead & where they end up initially after dead and then after Judgement Day when the dead are reunited with their tranformed bodies.
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I am not talking about an orthodox priest from the Council of Florence LOL I am talking about a Greek Orthodox priest who pastors an orthodox parish in my neighborhood and who I had been in conversation with a few weeks back. He looked up what the Greeks said about purgatory at the Council of Florence (whenever that was) because he said they discussed it there. Yes, and he also told me that the Greeks rejected the Council but that their points were valid. Then he read it to me and gave me a copy, which I summarized here.
 
w_stewart said:
They were essentially Catholics. Jesus founded the Church which the apostles were the first members. The Church Jesus founded was later named “Catholic” by St. Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of St. John the Evangelist.
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So are you disagreeing that they could have been essentially Orthodox?
 
AllSaints1631 said:
I do not believe in a purification process as it would either greatly diminish or completely nullify the sacrifice of the Christ made for sinners.
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How exactly? We believe it is the blood of Christ which cleanses us in Purgatory.

Apocalypse 7
14 And I said to him: My Lord, thou knowest. And he said to me: These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Even Mary said, “I rejoice in God my Savior” which proves that even she needed the saving grace of our Lord’s ultimate sacrifice. Pretty powerful stuff!
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  1. That has nothing to do with Purgatory since Mary never sinned and was assumed into heaven.
  2. The Catholic Church does not deny that Jesus saved Mary. But He saved her from sin before she sinned.
The Immaculate Conception emphasizes four truths: (1) Mary did need a savior; (2) her savior was Jesus Christ; (3) Mary’s salvation was accomplished by Jesus through his work on the Cross; and (4) Mary was saved from sin, but in a different and more glorious way than the rest of us are. Let’s consider the first and easiest of the three objections. …*.Medieval theologians developed an analogy to explain how and why Mary needed Jesus as her savior. A man (each of us) is walking along a forest path, unaware of a large pit a few paces directly ahead of him. He falls headlong into the pit and is immersed in the mud (original sin) it contains. He cries out for help, and his rescuer (the Lord Jesus) lowers a rope down to him and hauls him back up to safety. The man says to his rescuer, “Thank you for saving me,” recalling the words of the psalmist: The Lord “stooped toward me and heard my cry. He drew me out of the pit of destruction, out of the mud of the swamp; he set my feet upon a crag” (Psalm 40:2-4).

A woman (Mary), approaches the same pit, but as she began to fall into the pit her rescuer reaches out and stops her from falling in. She cries out, “Thank you for saving me” (Luke 1:47). Like this woman, Mary was no less “saved” than any other human being has been saved. She was just saved anticipatorily, * *before contracting original sin. Each of us is permitted to become dirtied with original sin, but she was not. God hates sin, so this was a far better way. *
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9112fea1.asp

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
Allsaints said:“I do not believe in a purification process as it would either greatly diminish or completely nullify the sacrifice of the Christ made for sinners.”

Protestants believe in Purgatory too. They just say it happens in an instant and is painless, and call it glorification. It in no way diminishes Christ’s work, which destroyed the Eternal Punishment for sin. Purgatory destroys the temporal effects of sin, it doesn’t forgive sin. That has already been done, by Jesus, on the holy Cross.
 
Unfortunately, I think it’s safe to say, Allsaints is a CINO (Catholic in name only) right now. Maybe they will come to their senses… :rolleyes:
 
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      Quote by All Saints:*
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                           So pain and burning and suffering are God's grace and the blood of the Lamb who saves us?
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Yeah:

Romans 8
17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.
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 Quote:   *
Prove it.
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*She bore in her womb the Son of God.

*Luke 1
49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.

And Scripture says she is the Kecharitomene:
Luke 1

28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Where one is full of grace, there is no room for sin.

And Scripture says that there is enmity between her and the serpent. Therefore, the serpent never had control of her.

Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
BrewMax said:
So this is your Biblical proof that God inflicts people with pain and tortures them?
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No. Would you call disiplining your child torture? Besides, I don’t think it’s agreed upon that it is painful, although that is the prevailing view. Some say it may be uncomfortable, but it is a joyous process, as people look forward to the Beatific Vision. I would gladly choose to purify myself before entering Heaven (Not that there is another option.)
 
Marina14 said:
We are given all of the divine energy (graces) necessary while here on earth to be completely healed by the Divine Physician, Jesus Christ.
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I agree
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Marina:
If we chose to remain in our sickness (sin - no real destinction between venial or mortal) then we have chosen death eternally.
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Did you know that mortal and venial sin are distinctions specifically mentioned in scripture? I’ll be happy to point out the passages in scripture for you if you ask.
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Marina:
This is why it is soooo very important that we engage in spiritual warfare and fight against our passions until we overcome.
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Agreed
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Marina:
The Church has not ever said that someone specifically has gone to hell, but the Scriptures are clear that most people do (Wide is the road to perdition, etc.).

This is one of the reasons the Church Fathers spoke out against Purgatory so passionately
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Do you have references
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Marina:
because of the fruits of this teaching…well try hard, but don’t worry if you fail then God will still let you slide into Heaven…
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Purgatory is NOT a second chance. This is a popular distortion, and misconception, the fruits of which,
  • one does not pick up on the distinction of sin, which scripture specifically makes,
  • ALL sin is deemed the same in severity, which is unscriptural.
  • fails to pick up on the hope clearly given by Paul and even OT scriptures, sins (not mortal) can be cleansed after death but only through a purification process.
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Marina:
I am struggling. Please pray for me.
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It would be my pleasure
 
De_Maria said:
  • Code: 
      Quote by All Saints:**
Yeah:

Romans 8*
17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.
Code: 
 Quote:   *
*She bore in her womb the Son of God.

**Luke 1
49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name.

And Scripture says she is the Kecharitomene:
Luke 1

28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Where one is full of grace, there is no room for sin.

And Scripture says that there is enmity between her and the serpent. Therefore, the serpent never had control of her.

Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Sincerely,

De Maria
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I’m sorry, I disagree with you on this. God does not burn us with fire for sins that his son shed his blood to pay for us. This whole premise is not foumd anywhere in Scripture.
 
AllSaints1631 said:
I’m sorry, I disagree with you on this. God does not burn us with fire for sins that his son shed his blood to pay for us. This whole premise is not foumd anywhere in Scripture.
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Its in Scripture you just don’t believe it.
 
Allsaints said:“I do not believe in a purification process as it would either greatly diminish or completely nullify the sacrifice of the Christ made for sinners.”

Protestants believe in Purgatory too. They just say it happens in an instant and is painless, and call it glorification. It in no way diminishes Christ’s work, which destroyed the Eternal Punishment for sin. Purgatory destroys the temporal effects of sin, it doesn’t forgive sin. That has already been done, by Jesus, on the holy Cross.
 
AllSaints1631 said:
God does not burn us with fire for sins that his son shed his blood to pay for us. This whole premise is not foumd anywhere in Scripture.
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It most certainly IS found in scripture.

1 Cor 3:13-15

13* each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15* If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

key points. Paul talks about
  • purification by Fire after death
  • suffering for sin can occur after death
  • ALL will be judged on “the Day”.
  • Since there is no suffering in heaven, and one who is IN hell or destined for hell is not saved, this process Paul warns of happens before heaven for one who IS saved, they just have correctable impurities God will finally and forever rid them of.
  • one has to ask what this process is that Paul teaches, whereby one is purified by fire after death, but before one enters heaven, while being saved. Paul is not speaking to pagans here.
 
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