J
JReducation
Guest
So you’re saying that the friars on EWTN are doing it wrong? But that’s the way that the Holy Father celebrates mass too. And the GIRM does not say ad orientem.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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bkovacs
Guest
No I’m not. If you look at their chapel the altar is in the center like St Peters in Rome. But for those churches that had a high altar and replaced it with a NO altar to face the people. They need to go back to using the high altar ad-orientum style. Or use the Benedictine Form. Cross in Center with six candles on each side. So the priest doesn’t become the focus of attention, like on EWTN with the cross and candle arrangement. What happens on EWTN, is not what happens in over 75% of NO parishes. Like St John Cantius in ChicagoSo you’re saying that the friars on EWTN are doing it wrong? But that’s the way that the Holy Father celebrates mass too. And the GIRM does not say ad orientem.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
is not the standard for the EF Mass through out the world.
Plus I see no EMHC on EWTN or Altar Girls either at that Mass. If that is exactly the way he wants it great. Then get rid of all EMHC and altar girls. Not needed!. And no guitar music or contemporary music either. I do hope the Franciscans are taking your advice.
J
JReducation
Guest
I have not seen any mandate from the Congregation on the Sacraments and Divine Worship say that. Until they do, the mass facing the people is allowed, even without the candles and the cross on the altar. We can’t make up rules for people based on our preferences. We have to wait until they come from an authoritative source and in writing.
Maybe when the new missal is published the Sacred Congregation will put something into the GIRM, but right now, it’s not there. Therefore, we cannot impose it on anyone. We’ll just have to wait.
This really is not something that I even want to debate. It’s not worth debating about. It’s a matter of waiting until there is an official written guideline published. When there is, we do what it says. There is nothing to debate here. Common sense tells us that if we debate what has not been written and decreed, we are just talking for the sake of talking about something that neither you nor I have authority to change.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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bkovacs
Guest
And I will continue attending my local Antiochian Orthodox Church, or a TLM or Anglican Use Mass if ones are ever established in my area in the future. I will not give into the liturgical changes of the sixties and seventies for the benefit of the liturgical liberals who all but destroyed the rich liturgical traditions of the Roman Catholic Church which I was stripped of.I have not seen any mandate from the Congregation on the Sacraments and Divine Worship say that. Until they do, the mass facing the people is allowed, even without the candles and the cross on the altar. We can’t make up rules for people based on our preferences. We have to wait until they come from an authoritative source and in writing.
Maybe when the new missal is published the Sacred Congregation will put something into the GIRM, but right now, it’s not there. Therefore, we cannot impose it on anyone. We’ll just have to wait.
This really is not something that I even want to debate. It’s not worth debating about. It’s a matter of waiting until there is an official written guideline published. When there is, we do what it says. There is nothing to debate here. Common sense tells us that if we debate what has not been written and decreed, we are just talking for the sake of talking about something that neither you nor I have authority to change.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
B
bpbasilphx
Guest
**Since God is everywhere, whichever way the Priest faces, he faces God. (This applies to the faithful, as well.)
In any case, they are not the Pope’s priests. They are CHRIST’S priests.
As far as a closed circle, I don’t know as much about pagan worship as others.**
**Actually, the Latin altar missals had rubrics for the basilican posture (otherwise known as facing west or versus populum), complete with diagrams about how the altar should be censed in this case. I’ve seen it with my own eyes.
Furthermore, there was a link on one of these fora showing photos of the Roman rite celebrated versus populum in the good old 1940’s and 1950’s–YEARS, if not decades–before that nasty ole Vatican II.**
J
JReducation
Guest
To add to what you just said, there are also all of the Eastern Rites, each with their own rubrics about which way the priest faces.
The point is that there is no universal form for the Catholic Church. The forms depend on the rite. The rites are dictated by the Sacred Congregation on Sacraments and Divine Worship. To say that the Tridentine form is THE right way of celebratig mass is inaccurate, since we have always had many forms in the Catholic Church. The Tridentine form was only for the Latin Rite and not for the entire Latin Rite. There were the exceptions for many religious orders.
In priories, monasteries and friaries, mass has been celebrated in different ways than has been the case for the parishes. In our own Franciscan houses we never had communion rails or kneelers. However, we were the first to have the tabernacle on the main altar, when the rest of the Church had it on the side. It was the Latin Rite Franciscans who introduced the tabernacle to the center altar when they went on missions outside of Assisi. That was introduced by St. Francis, because our chapels were very small with only one altar and St. Francis had such a strong devotion to the Blessed Sacrament that he ordered that the Sacrament be kept in our chapels. There was no other place to put him, except on the main altar. This was not the custom of the Middle Ages.
There are as many variatations on the form and the rules around each form as there were mendicant and monastic orders. One thing that most people in the Roman Church are not privy to are the rules that govern the celebration of mass inside the enclosure. These are not always the same as those that govern the mass in a parish or public oratory.
For example, in most monastic and mendicant orders there are no permanent deacons as there are among diocesan clergy. This was to protect the orders from becoming clerical orders. The founders were very careful to preserve the canonical lay character of the order. The canonical lay character is not the same as the laity. These men are not part of the laity. They are solemnly professed religious. But they are not ordained. To maintain the equality among the bretheren, some customs developed in the conventual mass that are not used in the mass with the general public. One of them was the absence of altar rails, communion on the knees or even Gregorian chant. That was more common among monastic orders and later adopted by the dioceses, but it never made it’s way into some mendicant orders. Among Franciscans the use of Gregorain chant was forbidden until Vatican II. They were only allowed to use it in parishes, because the bishops demanded that the religious follow the same rules as the secular priests when celebrating for the laity. Even in the Divine Office, it was recited, not chanted by Franciscans. Chanting the Liturgy of the Hours is very new to Franciscans. The older friars do not like it and object to it, because it is contrary to the 800 year tradition of reciting the office. They feel that introducing chant into the divine office in a Franciscan house is a novelty. Now there is the height of irony.
If you obseve the mass on EWTN, the entire community is not present. The reason for that is the same. The conventual mass is to be celebrated separate from the laity. That is one that many people don’t know. Many religious orders do not celebrate the conventual mass with the laity present. The Carthusians are never allowed to celebrate with the laity present. The Franciscans are allowed to do so, as long as it does not replace the conventual mass. The same with the Carmelites. There must be a conventual mass. The conventual masses often have different rituals built into them or different customs. As I said, we never had kneelers until after Vatican II. We stood for the Eucharistic prayer We did not have a communion rail. We received standing. The reason for that was becaues the early friars did it out of respect for the founder. It was considered inappropriate for a subordinate to ask the founder to kneel for communion before one of his sons. Since Francis was given communion standing, to avoid singularizing the founder, everyone stood. This was approved by Pope Innocent to avoid distinction among the friars.
I can speak best about our own Franciscan heritage, because it’s the one that I know the best. But like our own, there were other religious families that received other indults to fit their charism and spirituality.
When Vatican II came around and said that we could use the universal form, this was awkward. Because in 1963/65 people knelt at the altar rail. We didn’t have altar rails in our chapels. So you knelt on the floor along the edge of the sanctuary, which was not much of a sanctuary, since there were no steps, just a platform. In other words, it was not a very well marked sanctuary, as you would find in a parish church.
I have no idea what the new GIRM is going to say about all of this. I’m not a liturgist. I’m a mystical theologian. I deal in the soul, not the liturgy. What I know is very basic.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Benedict108
Guest
Brother,
I can understand your discontent and how you feel forced in a certain direction, but have you exhausted all means? Have you addressed your local ordinary? Have you written to the Roman Curia?
I ask you these thing because I am facing the same issues right now, and though it is difficult, we mustn’t run from a fight. Our Lord and Savior did not and if we are convinced in the correctness and truth of our actions we must follow our conscience and exhaust all options available to us to include praying and fasting. We mustn’t give into an act of disobedience because of someone elses action. Consider the story of Saint Jean Vianney and the trails he faced and how often he wanted to run from Ars.
The Lord led him to fight on and he rescued countless souls. Perhaps, these trails that are faced by use who adhere and love tradition will be the turning point for many and help the Church to once again grow in orthodoxy. Even as I write, there is a growing number of youth who are finding truth in the Tridentine Mass. We must continue to fight on. If we run, we lose ground and it is another victory for modernists. Fight on brother. Do not give up.
Pax tecum.
B
bpbasilphx
Guest
\I have considered myself faithful to the Church, but at a recent (NO) Mass I attended, I was denied Communion on the tongue, forced to receive on the hand, and forced to receive multiple hosts (because the Church will be closed for awhile). Even though I explained I had a right to receive on the tongue, I was told “don’t argue, the Priest is the boss at the altar” No! Christ is the Head at the altar!\
**And, of course, this is the ONLY Ordinary Form mass you can attend, right?
When the Priest is holding the Eucharist, this is NOT the time to get into an argument with him. And don’t forget, the Priest is acting “in personal Christi.” For Christ’s sake, you should be obedient to him.
Finally, as St. Francis said, even when our rights are being trampled upon by a superior, we should follow the example of the Lord and submit. Even if we are being subjected to an injustice, the Gates of Heaven are not opened by justice, but by mercy and love.**
**And, of course, this is the ONLY Ordinary Form mass you can attend, right?
When the Priest is holding the Eucharist, this is NOT the time to get into an argument with him. And don’t forget, the Priest is acting “in personal Christi.” For Christ’s sake, you should be obedient to him.
Finally, as St. Francis said, even when our rights are being trampled upon by a superior, we should follow the example of the Lord and submit. Even if we are being subjected to an injustice, the Gates of Heaven are not opened by justice, but by mercy and love.**
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Benedict108
Guest
Good point bpbasilphx
I forgot to say don’t fight with the priest when he is acting in Persona Christi.
That is a big no no.
I forgot to say don’t fight with the priest when he is acting in Persona Christi.
That is a big no no.
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ProVobis
Guest
Not everyone wants to fight with a priest or bishop, though. And what’s wrong with voting with your feet? Many do that and manage to express their views very effectively. If the bishop notes a severe decline in attendance, I’m sure he will take some measures to correct the situation, even if it’s closing the parish down.
If I stay at and support the parish at which I find I am at a spiritual disadvantage (see Canon Law I quoted above), this will only encourage the PERCEIVED abnormal behavior, even if it’s entirely within the law. The notion that if 51% feel everything is okay makes it okay, I certainly don’t want to make it 52%.
T
thistle
Guest
So God is only in the East? Wow. I have spent my whole life thinking God was everywhere!
Will you please refer me to the Church documents which state God is in the East and not everywhere?
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Benedict108
Guest
I am not contesting the validity of the canon you quoted; however, there is also the possibility if parishoners leave a church or churches that scale may shift the other way and the bishop may see the fall in attendance as a need to give into liberalism. I believe the situation to be a double edged sword.
I guess we all have multiple approaches to these situations, but I believe that one should exhaust all means before he or she presents himself in a place that is not in communion with Rome, and I believe this was implied in the latter part of your posting where you quoted canon law where you talk of seeking other places of worship such as the FSSP, etc. On another note, bishops are not always aware of issues which exist within their diocese and there may be a circumstance where the bishop should be given an opportunity to set things right.
Pax tecum.
R
RosaryCrusader
Guest
I wouldn’t hesitate to go to SSPX - don’t let anyone scare you in that regard. You can go to SSPX to fulfill your Sunday obligation without any fear of sin or “disobedience” (As if your local NO is the poster boy of obedience as some here imply).
renewamerica.com/columns/mershon/080711
renewamerica.us/columns/mershon/070410
renewamerica.com/columns/mershon/080711
renewamerica.us/columns/mershon/070410
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surritter
Guest
Even though it’s valid, I should hope you would at least hesitate to go to an SSPX Mass, out of respect for the Vatican’s statement that they are in a form of schism.
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ProVobis
Guest
I’m not disagreeing with you but all I can say is that sometimes a little competition is not a bad thing. I believe the “spiritual advantage” clause levels the playing field a lot. Apparently Rome believes that too as they wrote it into Canon Law. Remember the principles of Vatican II ecumenism should be at work here. But then I don’t know exactly what they’re discussing in those SSPX talks in Rome.
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damooster
Guest
I almost feel scared to say this (I don’t wish to be schismatic) but I am kind of in the same boat as the OP.
I am having a hard time getting over the “transgressions” of certain clergy at the moment; it’s like all of the abuses are piling up. From the bishop who was arrested at an airport for having child porn on his laptop, to the priest that left the Church because it was discovered he was having an affair (and later marrying her), to the recent allegations of a priest practicing simony, I mean, it’s very difficult for me not to be mad. I understand that these are a minority, but the abuses are definitely there. I mean, Notre Dame giving a pro-abortionist an honorary degree? A priest having a child with a woman and his superiors paying her to keep quiet? I’m even researching Ave Maria University’s decision to name a building after a pro-abortionist!
You don’t hear about these types of things happening in traditional settings and it really makes me wonder: who’s really being schismatic?
Please pray for me. As you can see, I’m also having a difficult time.
I am having a hard time getting over the “transgressions” of certain clergy at the moment; it’s like all of the abuses are piling up. From the bishop who was arrested at an airport for having child porn on his laptop, to the priest that left the Church because it was discovered he was having an affair (and later marrying her), to the recent allegations of a priest practicing simony, I mean, it’s very difficult for me not to be mad. I understand that these are a minority, but the abuses are definitely there. I mean, Notre Dame giving a pro-abortionist an honorary degree? A priest having a child with a woman and his superiors paying her to keep quiet? I’m even researching Ave Maria University’s decision to name a building after a pro-abortionist!
You don’t hear about these types of things happening in traditional settings and it really makes me wonder: who’s really being schismatic?
Please pray for me. As you can see, I’m also having a difficult time.
S
surritter
Guest
Any ship you jump to is made up of humans, friend.
Though the SSPX may seem enticing, it is probable that some day down the road there will be faults that emerge. So stick with the Church founded by Jesus through Peter, and maintain strong faith that will persevere even in times of trial.
Though the SSPX may seem enticing, it is probable that some day down the road there will be faults that emerge. So stick with the Church founded by Jesus through Peter, and maintain strong faith that will persevere even in times of trial.
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ProVobis
Guest
Is it real charity to tell someone with sensitivities against such things to continue to live with these things? I don’t think we need more Hell on earth.
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eichenb2
Guest
It may turn out that the SSPX will save the Catholic Church and Bishop Lefevre may be seen as the modern Saint Athanasius.
E
eichenb2
Guest
Maybe the Catholic Church is mostly apostate now. My experience is that most self-identifying Catholic (even Priests), on one level or another, deny the Catholic faith. Most simply follow a set of rituals that give them an emotional lift; without any recourse to the Truth of the matter. The new mass exemplifies this.
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