Pushed to the SSPX

[JReducation]

I watched the midnight Mass from Holy Name Cathedral last night. They sang Adeste Fidelis (in Latin), the Kyrie, and the Gloria (in Latin). I fell asleep after that.

Packed house there too. So why isn’t it like that every Sunday?

A Blessed Christmas to you.

I can’t answer for any other parish. But our parish has seven masses every Sunday. The church holds 800 people. The only mass that has empty seat is the 8:00 mass on Sunday morning. We also have confessions every Sat for an hour. There is always one brother and one secular priest hearing confessions, because the line is too long for one person.

It may have a lot to do with population. We have a very large Catholic population where we are: Irish, Italians, Haitians, Filipinos, and Latin Americans. Can’t get more Catholic than that group. We also have masses in Spanish, Latin (OF), English, Creole, and Tagalo. Plus we have a very large youth ministry, about 500 kids and anothet 600 little ones in religious education. As it usually happens, the kids drag their parents.

I know it’s not the only thing, but one thing that helps a parish become alive is the people who run it. We have two houses of brothers who are responsible for this parish. Together there are seven of us. Each of us does a little something. Two of our brothers are priests, but only one functions as a priest. The other is the maintenance man for the grounds. He does help out with mass and confessions on weekends. The other five, one is the superior, he runs everything. Since the superior is not a priest and the priest cannot be the pastor. So he’s the parrocial vicar. That would create an internal conflic of interest in the community. You can’t have two brothers in equal positions of authority. It’s like Fr. Francis and Br. Elias. Elias was a priest and Francis was not. So Br. Elias always had to be a vicar. The people love the brothers.

The parrochial vicar has done a great job at raising 37 ministries in the parish. This draw in many people. It’s wonderful to see that many people, of different backgrounds, working together to create a parish family. This will probably be my last year there. I’m going to miss it. I’m moving into Gospel of Life ministry full-time with the new community, the Franciscan Brothers of Life. That’s another story.

I bet you that parishes that have a vibrant life of ministry are healthy. That has been my experience with most Francisan parishes. There is an Oblate parish, not far from us, that has an even larger community of parishioners and is even more vibrant. The OMIs are an awesome group of missionaries. They bring their charism to their parish too. I think that’s the secret to a vibrant parish. It must have a charism. One of the diocesan priests here runs a great parish. He’s not a religious, but he has a missionary charism about him and it has caught on in his parish.

Got to run now.

Have a blessed Christmas!

Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:

 

[JReducation]

Wow, that’s amazing! Am I allowed to ask what bishop this was?

We had a truly beautiful Midnight Mass too. Just the one priest and one deacon, but plenty of altar servers and they used shoulder capes, plenty of incense - way more than we ever use except Christmas and Easter - and Greek Kyrie, with Latin Gloria, Sanctus, Pater Noster, Angus Dei, Rite of Peace, and final blessing. The choir was really beautiful too - the best rendition of What Child Is This I have ever heard.

We didn’t have incense. We have three or four senior communities that attend mass at our church. Incense is a touchy thing. Some seniors are affected by it. The front row is reserved for them. They’re very close to it. I’m not sure if CAF rules allow me to mention the bishop by name or not, I better not, just in case. I don’t want to get into trouble here. But he’s a very pro-life bishop and a holy man.

Merry Christmas!

Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:

 

[JReducation]

Utah Rose,

I admire anti-Protestantism to a point, but in your case, it seems excessive. Here we have a group of Protestants, if we grant your point, who think they are Catholic, who say that Pope Benedict XVI is the Holy Father. I have been to many Protestant churches and one thing that would have confused me, would have been to see two photographs of the current bishop of Rome placed in prominent places in the church. It would have made me think that these Protestants were “essentially Catholic”, and that they believed that the person in the picture is who virtually the entire world accepts that he is, the pope. I never saw this until 2005, long after I thought I had become Catholic and stopped visiting Protestant churches.

So in 2005, I go to what is according to you, another Protestant church, our nearby SSPX chapel, who according to the claim of your sources, “contends that Pope Pius XII was the last legitimate pope” and there they are, pictures of Pope John Paul II. Shortly after his death, there appear photos of Benedict XVI, significantly, not as Cardinal Ratzinger, but in white garments of the pope. How do you explain such behavior? I concluded they believed these men were their popes.

Not only this, but from the pulpit, from books, and news articles there are continuous references to the current pope, not as a pretender, but the Vicar of Christ, the Successor of St. Peter who holds the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. It isn’t like they explain why he is pope. It is just seems like an assumption. How do you explain such words and actions if your source is reliable? Help me out. Our SSPX parish priest is coming over for Christmas dinner in a few hours. I know He would be astounded to hear me ask him to confirm that he believes that Benedict XVI is the pope. I know I do. Why don’t you believe us?

I think your zeal is admirable, and you love the church, but if you love your neighbor for Christ’s sake, you have to be happy to consider the possibility that these people (and that means me too) are at least closer to the true faith than you have been led to believe. We believe that we have a pope. I appreciate almost every misgiving that is ever expressed about why Catholics won’t go to an SSPX chapel. I am only here to clear up misconceptions, not to convince anyone to go to a Society Mass. Yours is a clear misconception. Surely, you don’t accuse the Society of saying what they do not believe with regard to Pope Benedict? Do you think that an SSPX chapel would put up pictures of an anti-pope?

If we are essentially Protestants as you have said, does it give true Catholics like you the right to exaggerate our sins? Do you think the Catholic Church teaches that if a man is a thief, you should convict him of murder? Even criminals, sinners, and Protestants should be immune to false accusation, don’t you think? Is that what the ecumenism you fault the SSPX for rejecting, teaches? Surely not.

The Society seems more charitable and ecumenical than those who seem to have an almost diabolical opposition to the SSPX with a mission to exaggerate, lie about, and hyperbolize its entire history. It seems to me like you need to know this before you take anyone else’s word about what the Society believes or teaches.

Before we stir up a hornets’ nest, let clarify some things and keep things peaceful.

The poster said that this was in a magazine. These are not the poster’s words.

The article is mistaken. The SSPX is not sedevacantist. It has never been such.

Merry and Holy Christmas,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

The only mass that has empty seat is the 8:00 mass on Sunday morning.

That must be the English Mass?

Actually around Chicago you will find the larger attendances amongst the Polish and Hispanics. But they’re of different cultures. A lot of divorced and remarried “Catholics” attend Mass there, though the numbers receiving communion are a lot fewer.

Also there is the CE factor working today. (Christmas and Easter only Catholics)

We also have confessions every Sat for an hour.

At St. John Cantius they have the confessions during Sunday morning Masses as well. And the lines are generally long. There is no doubt attendance is improved by the possibility of having confessions heard. Also it’s nice to know that Penance is becoming almost equal in sacramental value with communion (as it used to be).

It may have a lot to do with population. We have a very large Catholic population where we are: Irish, Italians, Haitians, Filipinos, and Latin Americans. Can’t get more Catholic than that group. We also have masses in Spanish, Latin (OF), English, Creole, and Tagalo.

That’s good. But it’s a shame you can’t have one Mass that fits all. As it was in the pre-Vatican II where you just picked your time given 6,7,8,9,10,11:15, and 12:15 Masses. Now it’s the Italian Mass, the English Mass, the Spanish Mass, etc. I know, picky, picky.

 

[preV2tradcath]

Also there is the CE factor working today. (Christmas and Easter only Catholics)

I am a convert from the Episcopal Church. One of their priests used to call the Episcopalians like that the Christmas trees and the Easter lillies.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\That’s good. But it’s a shame you can’t have one Mass that fits all. As it was in the pre-Vatican II where you just picked your time given 6,7,8,9,10,11:15, and 12:15 Masses. \

**The Mass has NEVER been a “one size fits all” thing, nor is it supposed to be.

Properly, a “one mass fits all” would be the Eastern discipline, where there is ONE Divine LIturgy PER PRIEST PER ALTAR on Sunday. Period.**

 

[srp643]

Utah Rose,

I admire anti-Protestantism to a point, but in your case, it seems excessive. Here we have a group of Protestants, if we grant your point, who think they are Catholic, who say that Pope Benedict XVI is the Holy Father. I have been to many Protestant churches and one thing that would have confused me, would have been to see two photographs of the current bishop of Rome placed in prominent places in the church. It would have made me think that these Protestants were “essentially Catholic”, and that they believed that the person in the picture is who virtually the entire world accepts that he is, the pope. I never saw this until 2005, long after I thought I had become Catholic and stopped visiting Protestant churches.

So in 2005, I go to what is according to you, another Protestant church, our nearby SSPX chapel, who according to the claim of your sources, “contends that Pope Pius XII was the last legitimate pope” and there they are, pictures of Pope John Paul II. Shortly after his death, there appear photos of Benedict XVI, significantly, not as Cardinal Ratzinger, but in white garments of the pope. How do you explain such behavior? I concluded they believed these men were their popes.

Not only this, but from the pulpit, from books, and news articles there are continuous references to the current pope, not as a pretender, but the Vicar of Christ, the Successor of St. Peter who holds the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. It isn’t like they explain why he is pope. It is just seems like an assumption. How do you explain such words and actions if your source is reliable? Help me out. Our SSPX parish priest is coming over for Christmas dinner in a few hours. I know He would be astounded to hear me ask him to confirm that he believes that Benedict XVI is the pope. I know I do. Why don’t you believe us?

I think your zeal is admirable, and you love the church, but if you love your neighbor for Christ’s sake, you have to be happy to consider the possibility that these people (and that means me too) are at least closer to the true faith than you have been led to believe. We believe that we have a pope. I appreciate almost every misgiving that is ever expressed about why Catholics won’t go to an SSPX chapel. I am only here to clear up misconceptions, not to convince anyone to go to a Society Mass. Yours is a clear misconception. Surely, you don’t accuse the Society of saying what they do not believe with regard to Pope Benedict? Do you think that an SSPX chapel would put up pictures of an anti-pope?

If we are essentially Protestants as you have said, does it give true Catholics like you the right to exaggerate our sins? Do you think the Catholic Church teaches that if a man is a thief, you should convict him of murder? Even criminals, sinners, and Protestants should be immune to false accusation, don’t you think? Is that what the ecumenism you fault the SSPX for rejecting, teaches? Surely not.

The Society seems more charitable and ecumenical than those who seem to have an almost diabolical opposition to the SSPX with a mission to exaggerate, lie about, and hyperbolize its entire history. It seems to me like you need to know this before you take anyone else’s word about what the Society believes or teaches.

Good post. I seem to recall that the SSPX gave the Pope a bouquet of a million or so rosaries not too long ago. Pretty impressive and very charitable. Would be good to know who else in the Church has done that in the last few years. Has any cardinal or bishop demonstrated such leadership? Anybody know? That’s a lot of rosaries to Our Lady.

 

[JReducation]

That must be the English Mass?

Actually, that’s the Latin mass. It was put into the time slot because many of the older people like to come to early mass and they like the Latin mass.

At St. John Cantius they have the confessions during Sunday morning Masses as well. And the lines are generally long. There is no doubt attendance is improved by the possibility of having confessions heard. Also it’s nice to know that Penance is becoming almost equal in sacramental value with communion (as it used to be).

We can’t have more hours of confession than we do now. They would cut into the life of the religious community. The brothers have to be present for Liturgy of the Hours, community meals, community recreation, adoration before the Blessed Sacrament, rosary, lectio divina, grand silence, community chapter, and do chores around the house. The superior of the house has a big problem with confessions taking place during mass. The way that the church is built, there is no way not to create a distraction for those who are trying to attend mass while you have confession lines along the side. If the confessionals were in the back, it would be different. But they aer on the sides toward the front of the church. The superior is also the community theologian. He has told the parrochial vicar that he can’t schedule confessions during mass and he can’t schedule them during community exercises. Besides, only have two ordained men and one has to be on the altar,except when we borrow a diocesan priest. These are retired men who live in the area. They can’t always come more than once a day. It is very important to have them for the masses.

That’s good. But it’s a shame you can’t have one Mass that fits all. As it was in the pre-Vatican II where you just picked your time given 6,7,8,9,10,11:15, and 12:15 Masses. Now it’s the Italian Mass, the English Mass, the Spanish Mass, etc. I know, picky, picky.

We do, we have a Latin mass. There is no shame in having masses in other languages. It helps quite a bit. The problems with parishes like this is that they grow very quickly and religious commuinity’s like our own cannot staff them for long. We only allow men to be ordained to serve the needs of the friars, not the laity. So we have very few ordained brothers. We’re more like the Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word (EWTN). They have very few ordaiend friars too. Most of their friars will never be ordained. This is part of the reform to return to the roots of St. Francis. The same is true with the Franciscans of the Renewal (CFR). They too ordain less men than they admit to religious profession. The Franciscans of the Immaculate ordain more, but they do not want to run parishes, because it’s a conflict with the prayer life of the friars. They serve in very few parishes. The Franciscans of Peace do not ordain any friars.

With the current reform of the Franciscan family, we’re going to see less ordained Franciscans. The experiment of ordaining too many almost destroyed many friars. They were in such demand that they hardly had time for religious life. As a result, today we have a tragic situation. The older friars who were used to being parish priests find it very difficult when they have to return to living in a friary. Doing laundry, scrubbing floors, doing cooking and dishes, praying on a schedule with a community, recreating with a community, getting up and going to bed at a certain time, asking for permission to leave the house, not having a car at their disposal are foreign to them. Even though the parish house was not exactly like a rectory, because there was some semblance of community life, it was not a friary with its austerity, bells, and regulated daily life.

Many religious orders have found that their men became diocesan priests in habits and some didn’t even wear a habit, when it was never abrogated. They simply followed what the diocesan clergy did. This was not good for the religious life of the different orders. It also created clericalism in some houses. The ordained began to use the non-clerical religious as servants. This was never the intent of most founders.

The congregations are different. Many of them were foiunded to be parish priests, but not the orders. Even those congregations that were not founded to run parishes suffered as a result of taking on too many parishes. It thwarted their mission and charism. When you have too many parishes, the number of men in each house is often too small to have a real community life.

The parish is really more appropriate for diocesan clergy or clerks regular founded for that purpose, not for mendicants and missionaries who depend on community life for their spiritual sustenance.

Merry Christmas,

Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Before we stir up a hornets’ nest, let clarify some things and keep things peaceful.

The poster said that this was in a magazine. These are not the poster’s words.

The article is mistaken. The SSPX is not sedevacantist. It has never been such.

Merry and Holy Christmas,

Br. JR, OSF

I am kind of saddened if I appeared to you to be posturing for a fight with this lady. I mean, did you see her nice photo with her husband? It completely destroyed any malice I might have had. She reminds of Mom. I wasn’t being sarcastic in acknowledging her love for the Church. I was calmly trying to lead her to reconsider her concurrence with a magazine article defining the Society as essentially Protestant and denying the legitimacy of every pope of the last fifty years.

Sincerely,

Rory

And for you and Utah Rose and everyone you both love and for all people of good will everywhere who implicitly or explicitly await the Advent of Christ in their hearts…A Merry and Holy Christmas.

Rory

 

[pnewton]

I just received my "Catholic Answer: for January and February and it states:

“this group founded by Archbishop Marcel Lefebere contends that Pope Pius X11 was the last legitimate pope; all his successors are merely pretenders to the papal throne”.

“The history of these groups (St Pius V also) clearly illustrates what happens when groups of Christians separate themselves from the divinely appointed center of unity in the Church”

"Regardless of what these groups think of themselves, they are essentially Protestant. They reject the Church’s authority and try to make themselves the final authority in matters of faith and morals. They are bound to fail. Pray for them to come to their senses and come back to their true home.

I will have to check the article and see if there was a misunderstanding. The SSPX does accept the validity, if not the authority in all circumstances, of all the last four popes. It is the SSPV that does not accept this and believes right now the Chair of Peter is vacant. This a point of division between them when the SSPV split off from the SSPX. The only culpability the SSPX has in this perhaps is that the initial act of disobedience opens the door to a fracturing of the Church, as happened in the Protestant Reformation. If the SSPX is ever reconcilled to the Church, we may well see a further division from those who refuse to concede this point or that.

I seldom find points of disagreement with Catholic Answers, but I really do not like the way “Protestant” was used. Protestants are a group of denominations that a specific historical development that can be followed. When the SSPX uses the term to describe what they do not like about the Church today, or the term is used to describe the status of the SSPX, it is always used as an insult. As such, it bypasses substance in favor of rhetoric. The SSPX has about one thing in common with Protestants, albeit a big thing, and everything else in line witt Catholicism.

 

[pnewton]

Here is a link from this forum’s apologist to illustrate what I said about the difference between the SSPX and the SSPV.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=12147

Although in schism from the Church, the SSPX continues to recognize John Paul II as the reigning pontiff. …The Society of St. Pius V (SSPV), on the other hand, believes that John Paul II is not the valid pope and that the papal chair is currently vacant (i.e., sedevacantism). The SSPV is a breakaway sect from the SSPX, founded when nine SSPX priests, disaffected by disagreement with the SSPX’s relationship with the “post-conciliar” Catholic Church, were expelled from Lefebvre’s group.

 

[Lamentabili]

Here is a link from this forum’s apologist to illustrate what I said about the difference between the SSPX and the SSPV.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=12147

This link needs to be updated since Cardinal Hoyos some time ago declared that the SSPX were not in formal schism.

 

[pnewton]

This link needs to be updated since Cardinal Hoyos some time ago declared that the SSPX were not in formal schism.

Correct. That post was before Cardinal Hoyos remark. I was using the post to address the sedevacantist issue.

 

[ProVobis]

The Mass has NEVER been a “one size fits all” thing, nor is it supposed to be.

You know, my dad was telling me that during WWII, there were people from both sides attending the same Mass.

Today how many English-speaking people go regularly to Polish Masses or Polish-speaking people go to Spanish Masses? In fact there are people within the same parish who NEVER see each other. Is this the way it’s SUPPOSED to be?

 

[pnewton]

In fact there are people within the same parish who NEVER see each other. Is this the way it’s SUPPOSED to be? Sorry I have to put it this way but just be with your crowd, everyone else be da**ed?

That’s not going to change. Even between Masses in the same langauge there are so many people that always go to the same Mass and never see those who always go to a different Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

Properly, a “one mass fits all” would be the Eastern discipline, where there is ONE Divine LIturgy PER PRIEST PER ALTAR on Sunday. Period.

When I travel East, I’ll remember that.

 

[ProVobis]

We do, we have a Latin mass. There is no shame in having masses in other languages. It helps quite a bit.

In theory this is fine. But it shouldn’t divide people either. But once you’ve allowed all-vernacular all-the-time Masses and you have everyone trying to find a new niche in the Catholic marketplace, Children’s Masses, Gay Masses (yes, Gay Masses!), Clown Masses, Puppet Masses, Polka Masses, and other made-for-YouTube Masses unsurprisingly (at least to me) start testing the liturgical waters as well. Personally I’m okay with that, but is this what Vatican II was all about? Ecumenism? I don’t think so. Catholic means universal and we don’t seem to be headed there.

 

[JReducation]

When I travel East, I’ll remember that.

Even among the Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox you will find variations on the form of the liturgy and in the languages used. The Russians, Greeks, Ethiopians, Croatians, Melchites and so forth.

In the West, if you travel from one monastic or mendicant house to another, you will find variations. The Carthusians celebrate mass differently from your average parish priest. In my own religious family, our conventual mass is different from the mass in the parish. The brothers who celebrate masses in parishes follow the guidelines of the Roman Missal. The brothers who celebrate mass in the friary follow the Roman-Franciscan missal and its guidelines. The same with Carmelites and Dominicans, etc. The major orders of men have received different indults through the centuries. Others have customs that are allowed because they are older than 100 years. Just a simple example, we stand during the canon when at a conventual mass, but we kneel at a parish mass. The priest receives communion with the other brothers in a conventual mass, but he receives communion before the congregation in a parish mass. We never chanted Gregorian chant in conventual masses in our 800 year history, but we did in parishes. We never sang the Gospel at a conventual mass, but we did at a parish mass.

Like this there have been differences in the disciplines for the major orders of men in the West and the differences between the Churches in the East. For many of us, switching back and forth is not a big deal. It’s comes easily. I believe that the same happens in parishes where masses are celebrated in different languages. In our parish most people speak fluent English. They prefer to have mass in their mother tongue. But in conversation, they use English. All of our ministries are conducted in English. The people who make them up are from different language groups.

That’s another important detail. People do interact in other parish functions. A parish that has as many ministries as this one does, has many opportunities for people to form community. Our religious education program alone has 600 children under age 16. Our youth ministry has over 500 between 15 and 18. When these kids and their families come together they have opportunities to interact and to do things as a parish family.

We have an additional advantage here. Spanish is the second official language of the county. More than half of our priests and religious speak Spanish. We are now getting many diocesan missionaries from Africa and from the Islands. They speak French and English. It’s a very multicultural diocese. It’s a fun place to live and work with all the diversity and the beauty that each group brings to the local church.

Christmas blessings to all,

Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:

 

[ProVobis]

In the West, if you travel from one monastic or mendicant house to another, you will find variations. The Carthusians celebrate mass differently from your average parish priest.

There’s a Carthusian-priest church closeby. I called and asked for Mass times and they told me they don’t speak English and hung up. But I decided to find out and go there anyway. As it turned out it was a OF Latin Mass with Polish sermon and readings. They were right, no English.

 

[JReducation]

In theory this is fine. But it shouldn’t divide people either. But once you’ve allowed all-vernacular all-the-time Masses and you have everyone trying to find a new niche in the Catholic marketplace, Children’s Masses, Gay Masses (yes, Gay Masses!), Clown Masses, Puppet Masses, Polka Masses, and other made-for-YouTube Masses unsurprisingly (at least to me) start testing the liturgical waters as well. Personally I’m okay with that, but is this what Vatican II was all about? Ecumenism? I don’t think so. Catholic means universal and we don’t seem to be headed there.

The fact that we have masses in different languages does not mean that there is anything unorthodox about them. We have been doing this for a long time. We have a very orthodox religious community running the parish, a very orthodox religious superior over the parish, and an excellent and orthodox vicar running the parish.

If any parish has watchdogs, this one does. It is not a matter of nitches. It’s a matter of pastoral practice, one which is legitimate. We do have a Latin mass for those who want to attend a mass in Latin. It’s not the TLM, it’s the OF, but it’s Latin. It’s the same form that you see on EWTN. That was the form that the General Chapter of the Franciscan family adopted for common use. That’s pretty orthodox to me.

Pax et Bonum,

Br. JR, OSF