Pushed to the SSPX

[spn82756]

That was a later development. The earliest development is rather humorous. The monks would get up in the middle of the night to pray, usually around 12:00 am. They’d go back to bed and rise again at about 4:45 am. They would remain awak the rest of the day. The mass was always the last thing before breakfast. By the time the mas came around, usually around 6:30 or 7:00 the monks had been up for a while and sitting in silence in the chapel.

The bells during the mass were introduced by the Benedictines to wake up the monks who had fallen asleep at their seats. The poor guys were sleepy, cold (not heat in those monasteries) and hungry.

That’s how the Benedictines started the use of the bells during mass. Later, people would hear them, because it was very early in the morning, they would know that the mass was being celebrated.

The Franciscans had no bells. We had wooden clappers. Now we have bells. But bells were expensive and the brothers could not afford them. I remember the clappers too. God I’m old. They were the most annoying sound. The bells are nice.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thanks for the explanation. I was a bit close!

 

[giuseppeTO]

Turning one’s back on the tabernacle is part of the Ordinary Form, since you are facing the people and the tabernacle is behind you, unless you are celebrating the mass ad orientem, in which case you’re facing away from the people.

The tabernacle was on a credence table in line with the left side isle of the church. All who came up the isle turned their backs to the tabernacle and reverenced the table. The tabernacle got no more attention than a bowl of fruit. They probably had no idea why they were reverencing the empty table … the legacy, in my opinion, of decades of neglect of the Real Presence and revised rubrics and practices that decreases our awareness of Christ in His physical presence, body, blood, soul, and divinity in the tabernacle.

 

[ibkc]

Far from it. The Protestants took that form of spirituality from the Catholic mystics. The Catholic mystics have always written and spoken about their friendship with Jesus. St. Teresa used to play the guitar for him and she also scolded him.

Padre Pio would get very upset with Jesus. St. Francis of Assisi would take two sticks, pretend it was a violin and sing and dance before the tabernacle. There were other great mystics who did the same. Once, while traveling, Teresa of Avila was thrown from her cart into the mud. She heard Jesus’ voice say, “This is the way I treat my friends.” Teresa was so upset with Jesus that she responded, “No wonder you have so few.”

There is a famous story of a woman who was praying to Mary and she thought she heard Jesus calling to her while she prayed. She ignored the voice. The voice kept calling. Unable to ignore the voice any longer she stopped her rosary and said to the voice, “Be quiet. I’m talking to your mother.” As far as she was concerned her relationship with Jesus was so personal that there was nothing wrong in speaking to him as one would to a family member. That’s the point.

The mystics have defined prayer as a “conversation with a friend.”

Catholicism has always encouraged a very personal and familial relationship with Jesus, especially among religious. This is always taught in novitiates. The novice must discover in Jesus: his friend, his lover and his God. That’s what we teach the novices in my community.

That’s all very good, Brother, but did these mystics use the Buddy Jesus excuse to indulge in irreverence during the holy sacrifice of the mass? Because you know, personal devotion is one thing and public worship is quite another. If they did and if that’s what Catholicism actually teaches, perhaps I converted to the wrong faith.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Genuflecting at every time you cross its path is just not needed.

Thanks for your opinion on this. However, most traditional priests (all who offer Mass in the EF) will disagree with you along with all faithful who assist exclusively in the EF. I can’t speak for those who assist exclusively in the OF - however, I would hope they are consistent in both rites.

 

[giuseppeTO]

That’s all very good, Brother, but did these mystics use the Buddy Jesus excuse to indulge in irreverence during the holy sacrifice of the mass? Because you know, personal devotion is one thing and public worship is quite another. If they did and if that’s what Catholicism actually teaches, perhaps I converted to the wrong faith.

With the emphasis in the OF as the Mass as a banquet, people tend to behave more like they were at a banquet than at the foot of the cross. I dobt anyone would telling Christ jokes in that situation.

 

[spn82756]

Thanks for your opinion on this. However, most traditional priests (all who offer Mass in the EF) will disagree with you along with all faithful who assist exclusively in the EF. I can’t speak for those who assist exclusively in the OF - however, I would hope they are consistent in both rites.

I guess you mean that had you been around 2000 years ago…you would have genuflected every time that you crossed paths with our Lord. I have a hard time believing that the 12 apostles did. I have a hard time believing that Peter did. They were his closest friends. Oh…BTW…Mary would have spent her entire life on her knees.

Jesus knows what is in our hearts.

 

[spn82756]

With the emphasis in the OF as the Mass as a banquet, people tend to behave more like they were at a banquet than at the foot of the cross. I dobt anyone would telling Christ jokes in that situation.

As I said before. I don’t think that Jesus walked Palestine intending that people bow or genuflect before Him everywhere He went.

 

[pnewton]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe what is proper is to genuflect to reverence the tabernacle except during Mass, when one bows toward the altar. In either case, both are signs or reverence, either to the Body of Christ reserved or the altar of consecration.

 

[ProVobis]

Clown masses are definitely disgraceful.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Many like the works of Picasso, many don’t.

If these folks are sincere in their beliefs, who are we to tell them they’re wrong or disgraceful? The Church has now accepted many different cultures, and if we’re okay with the different vernaculars, then certainly we should be okay with clown Masses, Polka Masses, liturgical dancing, Puppet Masses, Children’s Masses, Masses for the Divorced, Jive Masses, etc., I would think.

PS Ok, so I made a couple of them up but I hope you see the point.

 

[jmcrae]

There’s very little chance my godchild will come into the Catholic Church. Too much bad press or something.

I am not aware of any non-denominational organization that officially recognizes the concept of a “god child.” As far as bad press goes, if you’re getting press, you’re getting the bad along with the good - and if you’re not getting any press, then you aren’t doing anything worth writing about - and what’s the point of that?

 

[ibkc]

I guess you mean that had you been around 2000 years ago…you would have genuflected every time that you crossed paths with our Lord. I have a hard time believing that the 12 apostles did. I have a hard time believing that Peter did. They were his closest friends. Oh…BTW…Mary would have spent her entire life on her knees.

Jesus knows what is in our hearts.

He knows that some people can’t even be bothered to show the most basic form of respect when they are in His house.

You be as Protestant as you want. I will continue to genuflect to Him when He is in the tabernacle. I was taught to do so in RCIA at a Novus Ordo parish and I see no reason to not do so based on Buddy Jesus arguments.

 

[ProVobis]

The presence of Christ in the tabernacle should draw us into dialogue with him.

Is this what makes the tabernacle what it is? I thought the origin of the tabernacle as the Holy of Holies is stated in Exodus, before Christ. I don’t mean to be disrespectful to the Blessed Sacrament, mind you. I’m just trying to connect the dots here.

 

[pnewton]

Yep. I realize I am new to this Catholic thing, but I was under the impression that Catholics have a ancient tradition of reverence and piety, and that “Buddy Jesus”-style worship is more the specialty of evangelical and pentecostal Protestants.

It is not either/or. The point was not that we should ignore any reverence because Jesus is our brother. Rather that reverence and piety are not the sum total or what Jesus is to us. In context of this thread (liturgy) there will always be some one else somewhere in the world that engages in more acts of reverance, or fewer than oneself. Our piety must never be a source of pride - a literal version of holier than thou. What we must do, is follow what the Church teaches in regards to piety so that do not get our of balance on the whole buddy stuff you mention. Genuflect on entering and leaving the Church (toward the tabernacle). Bow while passing the altar. Bow deeply or kneel when presented with the Blessed Sacrament. Never forget the incredible mystery in being in the presence of God in the Holy Eucharist and the rest takes care of itself.

 

[bryan123459]

At Christmas Mass, the visiting priest asked for people to recieve Communion in the hand because of swine flu. No matter how careful with Communion on the tongue, saliva does get on the fingers of the Eucharistic minister or priest.

I really liked kneeling and receiving Communion on the tongue, which was the only way to receive Communion when I was young. I have made the adjustment to receiving in the hand by spiritually offering myself to Christ as I extend my hands to receive him in holy Communion. Sometimes I picture people in need held in my hands and offer my Communion for their needs.

I hope these thoughts can help you if you are asked to receive Communion in the hand (for example, during flu season).

 

[spn82756]

He knows that some people can’t even be bothered to show the most basic form of respect when they are in His house.

Thank you. I knew someone would do it! Sarcasm will get you everywhere in your OWN circle.

Like I said. Mary was in His house her entire life. She would have never been able to stand.

BTW…are all Protestants going to hell?

 

[ProVobis]

I am not aware of any non-denominational organization that officially recognizes the concept of a “god child.”

Yep, they should have her records and who her godparents are. And her mother was baptized the same day there and she now has godparents too.

 

[spn82756]

At Christmas Mass, the visiting priest asked for people to recieve Communion in the hand because of swine flu. No matter how careful with Communion on the tongue, saliva does get on the fingers of the Eucharistic minister or priest.

I really liked kneeling and receiving Communion on the tongue, which was the only way to receive Communion when I was young. I have made the adjustment to receiving in the hand by spiritually offering myself to Christ as I extend my hands to receive him in holy Communion. Sometimes I picture people in need held in my hands and offer my Communion for their needs.

I hope these thoughts can help you if you are asked to receive Communion in the hand (for example, during flu season).

You’re sincere. When I receive the Eucharist at Mass…my AMEN after “The Body of Christ” is to heard by all. When in Mass I pray so that I can be heard…when people are barely whispering. When I recite the Creed…it is with a happy and clear voice. When hymns are sung…I sing to be heard. I am thrilled to praise and worship God. Don’t that other poster insinuate that I am disrespectful to God. It is the ultraconservative so called “Christians” who put themselves above others. He sounds like the Pharisees that demonstrated apparent worship of God…and were frauds.

 

[Lamentabili]

If the Society admitted as much, it would not be “ordaining” priests, nor setting up “chapels” since it has absolutely no authority to do so.

This pertains only to lay people - the priests are in a state of grave disobedience. If the lay people had any pity, they would not put the priests in the position of feeling that they “have to” minister to them. Indeed, if they had no congregations, they would probably become motivated to get themselves regularized, so that they could get legitimate jobs in the Diocese.

You don’t have to agree with the Society, but it would be helpful to understand where they are coming from to understand why they don’t behave as you would expect them to. They are not being disobedient to be disobedient. In their minds they have been faced with a crisis, a conflict, between obedience and keeping the true faith as they see it and they have chosen the faith.

To put yourself in their shoes, imagine the Bishop told you to stop saying your rosary. You respect the Bishop as the Bishop, but you refuse to obey because the rosary is a good thing that assists you in your faith and aids your salvation and it is a long standing tradition. He has no right to forbid you from doing good. The Bishop then suspends you from receiving the sacraments because you will not comply with his order. However, you continue to receive the sacraments because you see the suspension as invalid (the Bishop cannot suspend you for praying the rosary).

Now you will probably disagree the Society’s situation fits this analogy, but the point is, you can then at least understand their mindset by putting yourself in their shoes. They do not act out of malice but out of conscience, even if you disagree with them.

 

[ibkc]

It is not either/or. The point was not that we should ignore any reverence because Jesus is our brother. Rather that reverence and piety are not the sum total or what Jesus is to us. In context of this thread (liturgy) there will always be some one else somewhere in the world that engages in more acts of reverance, or fewer than oneself. Our piety must never be a source of pride - a literal version of holier than thou. What we must do, is follow what the Church teaches in regards to piety so that do not get our of balance on the whole buddy stuff you mention. Genuflect on entering and leaving the Church (toward the tabernacle). Bow while passing the altar. Bow deeply or kneel when presented with the Blessed Sacrament. Never forget the incredible mystery in being in the presence of God in the Holy Eucharist and the rest takes care of itself.

I understand, pnewton. You and I agree. I will simply reiterate that I love hearing about the devotions of genuine mystics but I do not believe that their devotions should be held up as an excuse for irreverence. And I also believe it is incredibly presumptuous - dangerously presumtious, in fact - to use the fact that “Jesus knows what is in our hearts” as a similar excuse for irreverence. The Church developed its standards of behavior while in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament for a reason. I will follow those teachings rather than presume that Jesus thinks it’s cool that I’m too lazy to genuflect or bow at appropriate times.

 

[jmcrae]

In the parish I am thinking of, they’re are in the area we would normally call the ‘sanctuary’ if such a delimitation can still be understood. That would be to the left of the altar with the right-most band members in front of the pulpit. Not gathered around the table, but certainly front-and-center and distracting.

Yes, I know where you mean. I find that sort of thing very distracting, too. However, there are still lots of parishes that still make active use of their Choir Lofts at at least one of their weekend Masses - the requirement is to attend Mass, but you can pick which Mass to go to - you don’t have to go to the Youth Mass, which is usually something of a hootenanny - I tend to prefer the mid-morning Mass, which is usually distinguished by the use of classical music, and proper placement of the choir.

I am not sure why pastorly instruction is not an option, but I fear it is the same fear.

We don’t have to leave everything up to the priest, either - we as lay people can also have a positive influence, first, by setting a good example, and second, by reminding people of what is proper. For example, you could say to people who are trying to talk to you in the Church just before or just after Mass, “Hush - I think people are trying to pray right now.” Or if someone offers you a piece of gum, you can say, “Thank you for the kind thought, but I am fasting right now, because I want to receive Holy Communion at Mass - I always like to fast a little longer than just the minimum of one hour.” If you can speak to people graciously and kindly, they will want to be like you, and they will soon start to follow your example.