Puzzling over all who claim to feel Christ's presence but do not live like saints

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There seems to be no shortage of writers in the world at large, nor of thinkers here on the forums, nor of holy-rollers in the pews and on the parish councils who talk and talk about feeling God’s presence (in the Eucharist, in the sunrise, in the silence, you name it).

Yet, there are so few saints walking among us. I have seen how people change their driving when they honestly believe a policeman is watching them. IT IS REMARKABLE. They suddenly remember where to find the lever for their turn signals, their driving speed magically drops into conformity with posted limits, on and on.

Sure, we are weak. So? Drivers are horrible drivers and make all sorts of lazy or careless decisions most of the time, but if they see a police car nearby and think someone is watching them who can fine them, they somehow get a lot less weak. I do not have enough fingers and toes to count all the people I have talked to who claim to feel Christ, but I can count on less than one pinky finger the number I have ever met - even with two degrees of separation - who sold everything they owned and left to go help the poor.

What is the piece of the puzzle that I’m missing?
 
Neoplatonist said:
There seems to be no shortage of writers in the world at large, nor of thinkers here on the forums, nor of holy-rollers in the pews and on the parish councils who talk and talk about feeling God’s presence (in the Eucharist, in the sunrise, in the silence, you name it).

Yet, there are so few saints walking among us. I have seen how people change their driving when they honestly believe a policeman is watching them. IT IS REMARKABLE. They suddenly remember where to find the lever for their turn signals, their driving speed magically drops into conformity with posted limits, on and on.

Sure, we are weak. So? Drivers are horrible drivers and make all sorts of lazy or careless decisions most of the time, but if they see a police car nearby and think someone is watching them who can fine them, they somehow get a lot less weak. I do not have enough fingers and toes to count all the people I have talked to who claim to feel Christ, but I can count on less than one pinky finger the number I have ever met - even with two degrees of separation - who sold everything they owned and left to go help the poor.

What is the piece of the puzzle that I’m missing?
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Saints I highly doubt were perfect all the time. People fluctuate. Some days they are kind. Some days are not their best. Yes, ideally we should all be on our best behavior, but most of us not always aware of God’s presence every minute of our life. We could all be better. Sure, Christians should be better. They are human after all.
 
What makes you think there are so few saints among us? If you look carefully, you might find a few more.

Is traffic law compliance a matter of morality?

Did you honestly expect a lot of people to sell all they have?

Look for the good in other people. It may be possible to interpret your neighbor’s actions more favorably. It’s not your job to judge them or condemn them. We are called to love them, to desire their good, and, if possible, to work toward their good.

Pray the Lord’s Prayer, in which we pray for a better world and for forgiveness.
Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
Amen.
 
St. Seraphim of Sarov

Non-Judgment and the Forgiveness of Offenses

It is not right to judge anyone, even if you have seen someone sinning and wallowing in the violations of God’s laws with your own eyes, as is said in the word of God: “Judge not, that ye be not judged” (Mt. 7:1). “Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand” (Rom. 14:4). It is much better always to bring to memory the words of the apostle: “Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. 10:12).

One must not harbor anger or hatred towards a person that is hostile toward us. On the contrary, one must love him and do as much good as possible towards him, following the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ: “Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you” (Mt. 5:44). If then we will try to fulfill all this to the extent of our power, we can hope that God’s light will begin to shine in our hearts, lighting our path to the heavenly Jerusalem.

Why do we judge our neighbors? Because we are not trying to get to know ourselves. Someone busy trying to understand himself has no time to notice the shortcomings of others. Judge yourself — and you will stop judging others. Judge a poor deed, but do not judge the doer. It is necessary to consider yourself the most sinful of all, and to forgive your neighbor every poor deed. One must hate only the devil, who tempted him. It can happen that someone might appear to be doing something bad to us, but in reality, because of the doer’s good intentions, it is a good deed. Besides, the door of penitence is always open, and it is not known who will enter it sooner — you, “the judge,” or the one judged by you.

fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/seraphim_e.htm#n10

Peace
 
I have this for you from one who really knows God:
‘When a man engages in a fight with another man, the one who is afraid, the one who is wounded, who falls to the ground and sheds his blood is considered to have lost the fight. However, in life, he who trembles before this same God against whose strength nothing is of any avail, for everything yields to His word, he, I say, who is crushed by the sight of the wounds produced by his own failings and drags himself along face downwards in the dust, who humbles himself, weeps, sighs, and prays, this man triumps over God’s justice and obliges God to show him mercy.
It is impossible for God not to welcome these demonstrations of goodwill and not to give way and surrender to you. God’s power triumphs over everything, but humble and suffering prayer prevails over God Himself. It disarms him, vanquishes and placates Him, and makes Him almost a dependent and a friend.’ St Padre Pio 1915.

And not a truer word was ever spoken! (except of course for my signature quote,& anything Jesus, or St Paul said etc…)
 
Beryllos said:
Is traffic law compliance a matter of morality?
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Yes it is.

When one is in control over a moving mass of steel capable of destroying property and killing people, following the laws that determine the safe use of these masses of steel so as to preserve lives and property is most definitely a matter of morality.
 
Neoplatonist said:
What is the piece of the puzzle that I’m missing?
Click to expand...
That God’s love is unconditional; He wants us to continually strive to be perfect and to live perfect lives, but He does not stop loving us just because we falter. He simply helps us to get up and keep trying harder.
 
If god as you know him always agrees with you then you’re probably just talking to yourself.
 
hazcompat said:
St. Seraphim of Sarov

Non-Judgment and the Forgiveness of Offenses

It is not right to judge anyone, even if you have seen someone sinning and wallowing in the violations of God’s laws with your own eyes, as is said in the word of God: “Judge not, that ye be not judged” (Mt. 7:1). “Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand” (Rom. 14:4). It is much better always to bring to memory the words of the apostle: “Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. 10:12).

One must not harbor anger or hatred towards a person that is hostile toward us. On the contrary, one must love him and do as much good as possible towards him, following the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ: “Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you” (Mt. 5:44). If then we will try to fulfill all this to the extent of our power, we can hope that God’s light will begin to shine in our hearts, lighting our path to the heavenly Jerusalem.

Why do we judge our neighbors? Because we are not trying to get to know ourselves. Someone busy trying to understand himself has no time to notice the shortcomings of others. Judge yourself — and you will stop judging others. Judge a poor deed, but do not judge the doer. It is necessary to consider yourself the most sinful of all, and to forgive your neighbor every poor deed. One must hate only the devil, who tempted him. It can happen that someone might appear to be doing something bad to us, but in reality, because of the doer’s good intentions, it is a good deed. Besides, the door of penitence is always open, and it is not known who will enter it sooner — you, “the judge,” or the one judged by you.

fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/seraphim_e.htm#n10

Peace
Click to expand...
How are we to know from whom to seek wise counsel or with whom to collaborate in leading a life toward God if we see no evidence that any of them are particularly in harmony with God?

My point is that we cannot look to their words, because saying you feel His presence comes easy. Aquinas argued that if we are not witness to events themselves, then we must look to the credibility of the witnesses as reflected in their lives.

Now it is tempting to point to the many books about saints to which we could turn, but those accounts are, themselves, then second hand (or hundredth hand, or whatever) accounts of those lives and events - and thus fall under the same criteria of credibility.
 
agnes_therese said:
The fact that we are all human.
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But we manage to drive better when the policeman is watching.

Why would we not drive our lives better if we honestly believed and felt that God was watching, otherwise it might be fairer to say we are just “hoping” God is watching.
 
Saint Angela of Folino
HOW IT MAY BE KNOWN THAT GOD HATH ENTERED INTO THE SOUL
IT must be known that God cometh sometimes unto the soul when it hath neither called, nor prayed unto, nor summoned Him. And He doth instill into the soul a fire and a love and a sweetness not customary, wherein it doth greatly delight and rejoice ; and it doth believe that this hath been wrought by God Himself there present, but this is not certain.
Presently the soul doth perceive that God is inwardly within itself, because albeit it cannot behold Him within it doth nevertheless perceive that His grace is present with it, wherein it doth greatly delight. Yet is not even this certain.
Presently it doth further perceive that God cometh unto it with most sweet words, wherein it delighteth yet more, and with much rejoicing doth it feel God within it ; yet do some doubts still remain, albeit but few. For the soul possesseth as yet no perfect certainty, neither is it assured that God is truly within it, because such converse and such feelings can be produced likewise by other spirits.
Wherefore is it still in doubt. And it seemeth unto me that this cometh either of its own malice and sinfulness, or else truly by the will of God, who desireth not that the soul should feel certain and secure. But when the soul doth feel the presence of God more deeply than is customary, then doth it certify unto itself that He is within it.
It doth feel it, I say, with an understanding so marvellous and so profound, and with such great love and divine fire, that it loseth all love for itself and for the body, and it speaketh and knoweth and understandeth those things of the which it hath never heard from any mortal whatsoever. And it understandeth with great illumination, and with much difficulty doth it hold its peace ; and if it doth hold its peace, it holdeth it out of the abundance of its zeal, that it may not be displeasing unto God its Lover nor cause offence, and likewise by reason of its humility ; for it desireth not to speak of things so exceeding high that it may not draw attention unto itself. …
But with that feeling whereby it is certified unto the soul that God dwelleth within it, there is given unto it a disposition so perfect that it doth most entirely and verily agree with the soul in all things, and in every way do all the members of the body agree with the soul and do truly form one cause together with it ; neither do they rebel against the will of the soul, but do perfectly desire those things which are of God, but which, nevertheless, they had not heretofore in any way desired. And this disposition is granted unto the soul through grace whereby it doth perceive that the Divine Being hath entered into it, and hath granted it the assurance and the desire of God and of those things which are of God, after the manner of the true love wherewith God hath loved us. Thus doth the soul feel that God is mingled with it and hath made companionship with it.
Further, when God cometh unto the soul, it is some times given unto it to behold Him,…more clearly than doth one man behold another. For the eyes of the soul do behold a spiritual and not a bodily presence, … And in very truth the soul doth rejoice in that sight with an ineffable joy and regardeth naught else, because this it is which doth fill it with most inestimable satisfaction.
This searching and beholding (whereby God is seen in such a manner that the soul can behold naught else) is so profound that much doth it grieve me that I cannot make manifest aught whatsoever of it, seeing that it is not a thing the which can be touched or imagined or judged of. Moreover, the soul doth know in many other ways that God hath without doubt entered into it, of the which ways I will now speak …
One is an holy unction which doth so instantly revive the soul, make meek all the members of the body, and cause them to agree together with the soul, that they cannot be touched or offended by anything whatsoever the which could even in the smallest degree agitate the soul. Therefore doth it feel and hear that God speaketh within it, and by means of this great and in all ways unspeakable unction the soul doth understand with the utmost certainty that God is within it, because no saint nor any angel in Paradise would have power to grant this. But seeing how that it is a thing the which cannot be expressed, it grieveth me that I can find no words wherewith to describe it in comparison of that which it truly is.

Peace
 
Neoplatonist said:
But we manage to drive better when the policeman is watching.

Why would we not drive our lives better if we honestly believed and felt that God was watching, otherwise it might be fairer to say we are just “hoping” God is watching.
Click to expand...
Sounds like something I would say actually.
 
Neoplatonist said:
There seems to be no shortage of writers in the world at large, nor of thinkers here on the forums, nor of holy-rollers in the pews and on the parish councils who talk and talk about feeling God’s presence (in the Eucharist, in the sunrise, in the silence, you name it).

Yet, there are so few saints walking among us. I have seen how people change their driving when they honestly believe a policeman is watching them. IT IS REMARKABLE. They suddenly remember where to find the lever for their turn signals, their driving speed magically drops into conformity with posted limits, on and on.

Sure, we are weak. So? Drivers are horrible drivers and make all sorts of lazy or careless decisions most of the time, but if they see a police car nearby and think someone is watching them who can fine them, they somehow get a lot less weak. I do not have enough fingers and toes to count all the people I have talked to who claim to feel Christ, but I can count on less than one pinky finger the number I have ever met - even with two degrees of separation - who sold everything they owned and left to go help the poor.

What is the piece of the puzzle that I’m missing?
Click to expand...
What are you trying to say? We should sell everything, become homeless and help the poor?

Have you done that?
 
The content and relation of these two worlds is the theme of I and Thou. The other person, the Thou, .is shown to be a reality-that is, it is given to me, but it is not bounded by me: “Thou has no bounds”; the. ’ Thou cannot be appropriated, but I am brought up short against it. The characteristic situation is here
one of meeting: I _ the Other. In the reality of this meeting no reduction of the I or of the Thou, to experiencing subject and experienced object, is possible. So long as I remain in relation with my Thou, I cannot experience it, but can only know it in the relation itself. “In the act of experience Thou is far away.”
The world of objects or things, on the• other hand, presupposes a single centre of consciousness, one subject, an I which experiences, arranges, and appropriates. This is the characteristic world of modern activity; in it the scientist and the statesman and the economist carry on their particnlar work. In it, too, men seek to understand their• relation with other men. Indeed, it is true that even when a Thou is truly confronted it becomes an It. Nevertheless … , to speak of and to act towards another person as if his reality consisted in his being simply a He, that is, an It, is disloyalty to the truth of the meeting with the Thou.
There is, however, one Thou which never becomes an It, the" eternal Thou ", God. Though we may speak of God in the third person, the reality of His approach is constituted in the fullness … of the relation of an I with a Thou. In truth, God may only be "addressed, not expressed. "
Put in anoth������r way, this primary distinction between the two orders in which men live concerns on the one hand the meaning of community, and on the other hand the meaning of organization. Community consists in the relation of persons, organization in the connection between things

Martin Buber
 
Neoplatonist said:
There seems to be no shortage of writers in the world at large, nor of thinkers here on the forums, nor of holy-rollers in the pews and on the parish councils who talk and talk about feeling God’s presence (in the Eucharist, in the sunrise, in the silence, you name it).

Yet, there are so few saints walking among us. I have seen how people change their driving when they honestly believe a policeman is watching them. IT IS REMARKABLE. They suddenly remember where to find the lever for their turn signals, their driving speed magically drops into conformity with posted limits, on and on.

Sure, we are weak. So? Drivers are horrible drivers and make all sorts of lazy or careless decisions most of the time, but if they see a police car nearby and think someone is watching them who can fine them, they somehow get a lot less weak. I do not have enough fingers and toes to count all the people I have talked to who claim to feel Christ, but I can count on less than one pinky finger the number I have ever met - even with two degrees of separation - who sold everything they owned and left to go help the poor.

What is the piece of the puzzle that I’m missing?
Click to expand...
I wonder what they’d be like-or what the world, in general, would be like-if they’d had no encounter with Christ. The Catechism teaches that God made His universe in a “state of journeying to perfection”.
 
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