Puzzling over all who claim to feel Christ's presence but do not live like saints

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There seems to be no shortage of writers in the world at large, nor of thinkers here on the forums, nor of holy-rollers in the pews and on the parish councils who talk and talk about feeling God’s presence (in the Eucharist, in the sunrise, in the silence, you name it).

Yet, there are so few saints walking among us. I have seen how people change their driving when they honestly believe a policeman is watching them. IT IS REMARKABLE. They suddenly remember where to find the lever for their turn signals, their driving speed magically drops into conformity with posted limits, on and on.

Sure, we are weak. So? Drivers are horrible drivers and make all sorts of lazy or careless decisions most of the time, but if they see a police car nearby and think someone is watching them who can fine them, they somehow get a lot less weak. I do not have enough fingers and toes to count all the people I have talked to who claim to feel Christ, but I can count on less than one pinky finger the number I have ever met - even with two degrees of separation - who sold everything they owned and left to go help the poor.

What is the piece of the puzzle that I’m missing?
Well, if a person totally believes the Gospel (and, a ‘real’ spiritual experience would be pretty certain proof), they would really, really try to follow it.

But it is more complex, because for a lot of people (myself included) sometimes my faith is strong, sometimes, it becomes 50/50. And then there are often moment of weakness, when laziness, etc. take over.

But it is right for all Christians to live like saints. But still, not something which is easy.
 
I am a normal person and I feel their presence all the time upon me. Sincerity in mind and heart is the door into divine mind and heart.
 
but I can count on less than one pinky finger the number I have ever met - even with two degrees of separation - who sold everything they owned and left to go help the poor.
👋

One caveat however, I didn’t sell it, I gave it away.
 
Interesting, this.

How are you posting here?
Life has been a long journey. There came a time, many years ago, when my elderly parents needed someone to look after them, and so it became necessary to follow a different path for awhile. I ended up caring not only for my parents, but for a sickly brother and sister, and a young nephew as well. My brother passed away almost twenty years ago, and my parents in the years since. My nephew has grown up and moved on, and now the only one left for me to care for is my sister. Someday, when my obligations here are finished, I will return to that to which I am more naturally inclined. I have always had an affinity for those who struggle against the cruelty and injustice of life. I don’t want my life to be filled with comfort. I want it to be filled with purpose. There is nothing that I have, that I wouldn’t graciously give away when it has fulfilled its purpose. Someday, if I’m lucky, I will have given it all away, again, and I will be wherever I’m called to be.
 
Life has been a long journey. There came a time, many years ago, when my elderly parents needed someone to look after them, and so it became necessary to follow a different path for awhile. I ended up caring not only for my parents, but for a sickly brother and sister, and a young nephew as well. My brother passed away almost twenty years ago, and my parents in the years since. My nephew has grown up and moved on, and now the only one left for me to care for is my sister. Someday, when my obligations here are finished, I will return to that to which I am more naturally inclined. I have always had an affinity for those who struggle against the cruelty and injustice of life. I don’t want my life to be filled with comfort. I want it to be filled with purpose. There is nothing that I have, that I wouldn’t graciously give away when it has fulfilled its purpose. Someday, if I’m lucky, I will have given it all away, again, and I will be wherever I’m called to be.
With all due respect, none of this is extraordinary. It’s actually quite ordinary. Something all of us have done, or will do. I daresay that most of the folks here have done even more than what is posted above. Way more.

If you are going to make an extraordinary claim (that you have given away all of your belongings and left to go serve the poor) then you ought to back up such claims. I presume, since you post on your profile that you are a cyclist, that you own a bicycle? Did you get your bike from a dumpster?

Or was it a gift?

If so, why did you not give that away?
 
What are you trying to say? We should sell everything, become homeless and help the poor?

Have you done that?
LOL No, but I don’t go around claiming to feel/see/hear the presence of Christ in the wind (or the silence of midnight prayer). No inconsistency here.

.
 
With all due respect, none of this is extraordinary. It’s actually quite ordinary. Something all of us have done, or will do. I daresay that most of the folks here have done even more than what is posted above. Way more.

If you are going to make an extraordinary claim (that you have given away all of your belongings and left to go serve the poor) then you ought to back up such claims. I presume, since you post on your profile that you are a cyclist, that you own a bicycle? Did you get your bike from a dumpster?

Or was it a gift?

If so, why did you not give that away?
I posted the response above, not with the intention of impressing anyone, I have no need nor desire to impress anyone, I posted it simply in response to your previous question about how it is that someone who had given everything away to go serve the poor could still manage to post to this forum. The answer is simple, life is a journey, and our paths change, mine has changed from serving the needs of the poor, to serving the needs of my family. I have over the years, done this quite well, and in so doing I have accumulated many things, but I will graciously give them all away when my job is finished. I have no need of things, they serve only to fill the time.

I’m quite certain that there’s nothing that I have done in my life that will impress you. My life is as you say, ordinary. But it’s the task to which I’ve been called, and so I do it faithfully and patiently. There is however one small thing that I hold above all else. Around my neck is a piece of electrical wire bent into the shape of a cross, hanging from three strands of ordinary string. I call it my IP cross. My “I Promise” cross. Because for as long as I wear it I promise to believe in Jesus Christ. Come next January it will have hung there for forty years. I know, many people wear crosses, and some for far longer than forty years. What’s impressive about this one isn’t how long I’ve worn it. It’s that up in the right hand corner of this post it says solipsist, but in spite of that, the cross is still there. So come judgment day it won’t matter that I once gave away all that I owned to go serve the poor, and it won’t matter that I once fasted for forty days, and it won’t even matter that it says solipsist up in the corner of this post. All that will matter is that cross, and the promise that it represents, and that’s what makes it impressive.

If I’ve done anything impressive in my life, it’s that I’ve had faith.
 
I posted the response above, not with the intention of impressing anyone, I have no need nor desire to impress anyone, I posted it simply in response to your previous question about how it is that someone who had given everything away to go serve the poor could still manage to post to this forum. The answer is simple, life is a journey, and our paths change, mine has changed from serving the needs of the poor, to serving the needs of my family. I have over the years, done this quite well, and in so doing I have accumulated many things, but I will graciously give them all away when my job is finished. I have no need of things, they serve only to fill the time.
Again, all of us here could say the above. Nothing extraordinary or unique about what you say above. Esp. the bolded section.

What would be extraordinary is if someone did this when it wasn’t easy. When it was the most difficult time and** funds were of great import for one’s self and one’s priorities…**.but someone gave it away–everything away–for the needs of the poor.

That would indeed be…saintly.

Something only a Christian could do, IMHO.
All that will matter is that cross, and the promise that it represents, and that’s what makes it impressive.
If I’ve done anything impressive in my life, it’s that I’ve had faith.
Faith in what? From where do you get your beliefs that “all that matters” is wearing a cross that represents a promise?

:confused:
 
There seems to be no shortage of writers in the world at large, nor of thinkers here on the forums, nor of holy-rollers in the pews and on the parish councils who talk and talk about feeling God’s presence (in the Eucharist, in the sunrise, in the silence, you name it).

Yet, there are so few saints walking among us. I have seen how people change their driving when they honestly believe a policeman is watching them. IT IS REMARKABLE. They suddenly remember where to find the lever for their turn signals, their driving speed magically drops into conformity with posted limits, on and on.

Sure, we are weak. So? Drivers are horrible drivers and make all sorts of lazy or careless decisions most of the time, but if they see a police car nearby and think someone is watching them who can fine them, they somehow get a lot less weak. I do not have enough fingers and toes to count all the people I have talked to who claim to feel Christ, but I can count on less than one pinky finger the number I have ever met - even with two degrees of separation - who sold everything they owned and left to go help the poor.

What is the piece of the puzzle that I’m missing?
Personally, I feel pretty much nothing religiously. I’m bored during liturgy, mostly. But I try to follow the Gospel laws, as literally as possible.

Christ didn’t come to give us ‘warm feelings.’ He came to give us new precepts, so that we may save our souls from damnation.
 
I’m bored during liturgy, mostly.
While on some level I can understand that…it still saddens me greatly to read this.

If you only knew what was happening at Mass–the greatest event ever!–you simply couldn’t be bored.

As author and poet Annie Dillard said, (paraphrasing): if we all understood what was going on at Mass we wouldn’t be wearing pretty Sunday hats*,** we’d be wearing crash helmets**! Heaven and earth come colliding together in the most magnificent supernatural, metaphysical event!

*I presume she said this during a time when women actually wore pretty Sunday hats to church.

 
Blessed Fulton J. Sheen

CALVARY AND THE MASS


Hence the Mass is to us the crowning act of Christian worship. A pulpit in which the words of our Lord are repeated does not unite us to Him; a choir in which sweet sentiments are sung brings us no closer to His Cross than to His garments. A temple without an altar of sacrifice is non-existent among primitive peoples, and is meaningless among Christians. And so in the Catholic Church the , and not the pulpit or the choir or the organ, is the center of worship, for there is re-enacted the memorial of His
Passion. Its value does not depend on him who says it, or on him who hears it; it depends on Him who is the One High Priest and Victim, Jesus Christ our Lord. With Him we are united, in spite of our nothingness; in a certain sense, we lose our individuality for the time being; we unite our intellect and our will, our heart and our soul, our body and our blood, so intimately with Christ, that the Heavenly Father sees not so much us with our imperfection, but rather sees us , the Beloved Son in whom He is well pleased. The Mass is for that reason the greatest event in the history of mankind; the only Holy Act which keeps the wrath of God from a sinful world, because it holds the Cross between heaven and earth, thus renewing that decisive moment when our sad and tragic humanity journeyed suddenly forth to the fullness of supernatural life.

ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/CALMASS.TXT

Peace
 
There seems to be no shortage of writers in the world at large, nor of thinkers here on the forums, nor of holy-rollers in the pews and on the parish councils who talk and talk about feeling God’s presence (in the Eucharist, in the sunrise, in the silence, you name it).

Yet, there are so few saints walking among us. I have seen how people change their driving when they honestly believe a policeman is watching them. IT IS REMARKABLE. They suddenly remember where to find the lever for their turn signals, their driving speed magically drops into conformity with posted limits, on and on.

Sure, we are weak. So? Drivers are horrible drivers and make all sorts of lazy or careless decisions most of the time, but if they see a police car nearby and think someone is watching them who can fine them, they somehow get a lot less weak. I do not have enough fingers and toes to count all the people I have talked to who claim to feel Christ, but I can count on less than one pinky finger the number I have ever met - even with two degrees of separation - who sold everything they owned and left to go help the poor.

What is the piece of the puzzle that I’m missing?
Perhaps that you are judging by appearances?

In fact, that you are judging others at all.
Jesus went on to say, “To what, then, can I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other:
“‘We played the pipe for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge,
and you did not cry.’
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by all her children.” (Luke 7:31-35)
Are you, like John, called to eat locusts and wild honey or, like Jesus, to eat and drink with sinners? How would you know?

Suppose that rich man strolling the street in front of you was Jesus, himself, incognito about to surprise someone in desperate need? Do you feel qualified to tell him he shouldn’t be living so high on the hog?

Suppose the poor pan handler was Jesus looking you in the eye? He can’t sell what he doesn’t have, but do you expect him to give it away, too, when he gets it?

It isn’t about what we do, but our freedom in Christ to do whatever we are called to do.

Now, that you are asking others means you are lacking that oneness with Christ that empowers the freedom you seem to feel is missing from your life. That freedom comes from Christ himself, not from imagining what Christ would do, but the real presence of Christ freeing us to do whatever is needed at the moment.

Remember, also Paul’s words:
If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. (1 Cor 13:3)
A young mother, who out of love, clothes, feeds and cares for and gives herself completely to the poor, naked and helpless young child in front of her out of love is living the love of God far more ‘gainfully’ than someone who out of some idealized sense of the “demands of the Gospel” sells everything just to claim or, in Paul’s words, to “boast” they have done so.

Why do you feel a need to prove anything to anyone, in particular to God? If God is moving you, you will know. If he isn’t, knocking yourself around trying to prove you deserve his love by selling everything isn’t going to earn more stars.

Do the little things out of love for God and others. Be faithful in those and leave the rest to God.
 
Perhaps that you are judging by appearances?

In fact, that you are judging others at all.

Are you, like John, called to eat locusts and wild honey or, like Jesus, to eat and drink with sinners? How would you know?

Suppose that rich man strolling the street in front of you was Jesus, himself, incognito about to surprise someone in desperate need? Do you feel qualified to tell him he shouldn’t be living so high on the hog?

Suppose the poor pan handler was Jesus looking you in the eye? He can’t sell what he doesn’t have, but do you expect him to give it away, too, when he gets it?

It isn’t about what we do, but our freedom in Christ to do whatever we are called to do.

Now, that you are asking others means you are lacking that oneness with Christ that empowers the freedom you seem to feel is missing from your life. That freedom comes from Christ himself, not from imagining what Christ would do, but the real presence of Christ freeing us to do whatever is needed at the moment.

Remember, also Paul’s words:

A young mother, who out of love, clothes, feeds and cares for and gives herself completely to the poor, naked and helpless young child in front of her out of love is living the love of God far more ‘gainfully’ than someone who out of some idealized sense of the “demands of the Gospel” sells everything just to claim or, in Paul’s words, to “boast” they have done so.

Why do you feel a need to prove anything to anyone, in particular to God? If God is moving you, you will know. If he isn’t, knocking yourself around trying to prove you deserve his love by selling everything isn’t going to earn more stars.

Do the little things out of love for God and others. Be faithful in those and leave the rest to God.
So, you disagree with the claim that we will know them by their fruits?

If you’re really implying that Jesus might be rolling past the homeless in his Lexus because he has some other plan, then we need to chuck out a LOT of (now apparently) inconsistent stuff that has been shelved with other legitimate teachings.

Are you also claiming that Christ calls people to amass great wealth and own yachts? Sign me up for that religious order! 😃
 
So, you disagree with the claim that we will know them by their fruits?
Jesus wasn’t necessarily referring to you or I as the knowers when he said, “YOU will know them by their fruits.” He was speaking specifically to the Apostles.

I would suggest he meant those having the Spirit living in them would be able to accurately assess whether the fruit is edible or not. That may not be a capability that just anyone, like you or I, can claim. Cf. 1 Cor 2:11-16.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we have the mind of Christ.
If you’re really implying that Jesus might be rolling past the homeless in his Lexus because he has some other plan, then we need to chuck out a LOT of (now apparently) inconsistent stuff that has been shelved with other legitimate teachings.

Are you also claiming that Christ calls people to amass great wealth and own yachts? Sign me up for that religious order! 😃
Why would you want to be a part of that religious order?

As for the rest of the post about the “inconsistent stuff,” I have no idea what you are referring to.
 
Many are called but few are chosen. Thus endeth the puzzle. 😉
 
Jesus wasn’t necessarily referring to you or I as the knowers when he said, “YOU will know them by their fruits.” He was speaking specifically to the Apostles.
Oh, good. Since that hermeneutic device applies to almost everything Christ said, since I wasn’t there, I’m off the hook for an awful lot of otherwise difficult stuff. 😃

As for the claim: “Many are called, few are chosen.” That certainly cuts through the Gordian knot, but at tremendous cost, I think. Why would we, then, trust the counsel of so many when they do not seem to sincerely feel Christ’s presence? If we do not happen to personally know someone who lives a saintly life, we seem to be stranded with naught but our prayers and our own counsel to lean on.(Of course, unless we have felt Christ’s presence, we can’t trust our own counsel either!)
 
If we do not happen to personally know someone who lives a saintly life, we seem to be stranded with naught but our prayers and our own counsel to lean on.(Of course, unless we have felt Christ’s presence, we can’t trust our own counsel either!)
What an odd admission. Why is it up to someone else to live a saintly life before we can come to know what it means to live one? Why can’t we trust our own counsel? Why would “feeling” Christ’s presence be the determiner of living a saintly life? Mother Teresa lived much of her life with no such feeling or assurance.

Christ said, “You will know the truth and the truth will set you free.” He didn’t say you would have a palpable sense of his continual presence.

By the way, you aren’t off the hook merely because a particular directive wasn’t aimed specifically at you. All responsibilities are not relieved merely because one didn’t specifically apply to you at one instance in time.

Whether we were present or not, is, likewise, irrelevant since we have reliable testimony about what Jesus said. Clearly, Jesus was speaking to the Apostles at that moment. That does not logically imply that we cannot share the same Spirit of truth today, but it does mean that without the guidance of the Spirit our fruit judging is going to be prone to error and unreliable. Which is why we are not on our own because we have the magisterium of the Church, Scripture, Tradition, the guidance of the Holy Spirit and reason to guide us.

Triangulation, or rather quintangulation, is a determinably better and more reliable means of finding your place in the journey than relying on “your own counsel.”
 
As for the claim: “Many are called, few are chosen.” That certainly cuts through the Gordian knot, but at tremendous cost, I think.
course, unless we have felt Christ’s presence, we can’t trust our own counsel either!
It cuts through the Gordian knot because Christ said it.

Our own counsel should be Christ’s counsel. When they are made one there is no “tremendous cost.”
 
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