Puzzling over all who claim to feel Christ's presence but do not live like saints

[Peter_Plato]

lol. I AM working to be good and seek truth and so on. I just happen to be really bad at it.

Welcome to the club!

I’m not looking for someone else to be accountable for my decisions or my path. I seek Christ’s presence, but haven’t found it. Why would I not look to those who have as offering insight and perspective on how I could be less incompetent in my efforts?

However, if I don’t feel his presence, and I can’t find others who actually seem to feel his presence, then it naturally enough causes me to struggle with what it would mean to talk about a “personal” relationship/faith or to continue clinging to metaphors and analogies like bride-bridegroom or parent-child that have been handed down to us as ways of understanding our faith.

The way I see it is that it is his mere presence that “reveals” the sense you have of “being really bad at it.” Certainly our pride rebels at that sensation and makes us want to run away to where we can feel “good” about ourselves, but the challenge is to continue walking in the right direction not focusing on ourselves or our “feelings” regarding his presence but in faith toward the Truth and Light.

Consolations will come as will desolations, but the important thing is to keep moving and not rely on feelings but on what you know to be true in faith.

Paul’s words about knowing how to live with and without the wealth of this world apply equally to knowing how to live with and without consolations. We rely on Christ not on wealth or feelings.

 

[TimothyH]

Most saints pass unnoticed by the world, as did Mary for the majority of her life.

-Tim-

 

[PRmerger]

Might be right/ might be wrong.

Might be wrong? Really?

I am sorry, Neoplatonist. But that is the most absurd thing that has been posted on this thread.

There is ample evidence that obesity puts you at risk for hypertension and diabetes.



That you are positing that the fat doctor “might be wrong” about this is indeed peculiar.

It makes it appear that you are willing to go to a ludicrous point in your argument in order to support your view that the Church can be wrong about a teaching because she is full of sinners.

Is there any church you could seek succor in that wouldn’t have these sinners?

 

[Neoplatonist]

Welcome to the club!

The way I see it is that it is his mere presence that “reveals” the sense you have of “being really bad at it.”

Ack! You lost me there. Isn’t that like saying, “The fact that your mother loves you and watches out for you is what highlights your belief/feeling that you are an orphan?”

I’m not trying to be contrary, I’m sincere in this.

 

[PRmerger]

So why does sin, even by Church leaders, cause the teachings of the Church to be untrustworthy?

For the same reason that seeing people speed makes me doubt their claim that the police are tracking them with a radar gun. (If their behavior does not match with their claims, then I have to think they are making the claims for some reason other than because they honestly believe them to be true.)

One has to be quite suspicious of this type of argumentation: “I see sinners in the Church, therefore her teachings are unworthy”.

It points to a person who seeks an escape hatch for disobedience. “I don’t have to obey the Church on teaching A, B and C because sinners profess these teachings.”

What that does is allows this person to create a god after one’s own image.

Rather than conforming one’s morality to what God has revealed.

 

[Almagor]

There seems to be no shortage of writers in the world at large, nor of thinkers here on the forums, nor of holy-rollers in the pews and on the parish councils who talk and talk about feeling God’s presence (in the Eucharist, in the sunrise, in the silence, you name it).

Yet, there are so few saints walking among us. I have seen how people change their driving when they honestly believe a policeman is watching them. IT IS REMARKABLE. They suddenly remember where to find the lever for their turn signals, their driving speed magically drops into conformity with posted limits, on and on.

Sure, we are weak. So? Drivers are horrible drivers and make all sorts of lazy or careless decisions most of the time, but if they see a police car nearby and think someone is watching them who can fine them, they somehow get a lot less weak. I do not have enough fingers and toes to count all the people I have talked to who claim to feel Christ, but I can count on less than one pinky finger the number I have ever met - even with two degrees of separation - who sold everything they owned and left to go help the poor.

What is the piece of the puzzle that I’m missing?

Scripture says that the Saints fall 7 times a day. Experiencing the Presence of God, even temporary Divine Union with God does not by itself guarantee future sinless behavior. Saint Paul, in the Scriptures, said that the only thing that could control the lusts of the flesh is to keep the mind continually on Heavenly things. I can attest by my own experience that that is a difficult though possible task.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Might be wrong? Really?

I am sorry, Neoplatonist. But that is the most absurd thing that has been posted on this thread.

There is ample evidence that obesity puts you at risk for hypertension and diabetes.

http://media.tumblr.com/f406ba98bcb73dcc62fdc1da6bc35c57/tumblr_mx7y36972G1rt5f2yo1_500.gif

That you are positing that the fat doctor “might be wrong” about this is indeed peculiar.

It makes it appear that you are willing to go to a ludicrous point in your argument in order to support your view that the Church can be wrong about a teaching because she is full of sinners.

Is there any church you could seek succor in that wouldn’t have these sinners?

I feel like we’re getting tangled between the analogy of the doctor and the real issue of faith. Yes, there is plenty of evidence that obesity puts you at risk for hypertension and diabetes. Yes, I get that a fat doctor can give good medical advice. WE ONLY KNOW IT’S GOOD IF THE PATIENTS HEAL AT STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT LEVELS.

What if the doctor says, “this is the best diet to bring down your obesity, thereby your high blood pressure.” I ask if he’s followed it. No. I ask if he can point me to a study that shows its efficacy. No.

I don’t care if he can quote passages from Aristotle that support the diet. I don’t care if he can construct mind-boggling, vocabulary-dense arguments for it. If it doesn’t change people’s condition better than any one of 27 other diets out there, why believe his claim that this diet is the best approach?

 

[Neoplatonist]

Scripture says that the Saints fall 7 times a day. Experiencing the Presence of God, even temporary Divine Union with God does not by itself guarantee future sinless behavior. Saint Paul, in the Scriptures, said that the only thing that could control the lusts of the flesh is to keep the mind continually on Heavenly things. I can attest by my own experience that that is a difficult though possible task.

Brilliant. Can you point me to a passage?

 

[Neoplatonist]

Most saints pass unnoticed by the world, as did Mary for the majority of her life.

-Tim-

Brilliant. “Most,” though?

 

[PRmerger]

I feel like we’re getting tangled between the analogy of the doctor and the real issue of faith. Yes, there is plenty of evidence that obesity puts you at risk for hypertension and diabetes. Yes, I get that a fat doctor can give good medical advice.

Excellent.

So you can then apply it to the Church. Sinners can give good moral advice.

 

[PRmerger]

Brilliant. “Most,” though?

One who comes to mind as an exception is St. Thomas More.

He was quite renown for his holiness, even during his lifetime.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Ack! You lost me there. Isn’t that like saying, “The fact that your mother loves you and watches out for you is what highlights your belief/feeling that you are an orphan?”

I’m not trying to be contrary, I’m sincere in this.

I appreciate your sincerity. I also should say that what I write is my opinion and you ought to feel free to question it because by doing so you may be helping me to understand more clearly what I am thinking, so I appreciate the questions.

To take your analogy, though, isn’t it more that the feeling, itself, of being orphaned could have risen because you know or feel that you have done nothing to merit the love of your mother for you or that you have disconnected yourself from your mother’s love?

Where the analogy seems to fall apart is that your mother has a human love for you and tangible ways of expressing that love. However, that sensation was not likely “felt” in the same way if you crossed her or did something that was disappointing to her love. Even a mother’s love would not overlook failings as if those were unimportant to your well-being as her son. Correction is as much an aspect of motherhood as warm, fuzzy feelings.

God has a “longer” and “deeper” view of your formation. His presence or absence is there to form you for eternity, not merely for life in the current human culture.

It has dawned on me at several points in my life where absence of consolation seemed to have been a predominant “feeling” that the message implicit in that absence was a twofold one:

1. Am I serious about following Christ or just “playing” the part?
2. Am I relying on my feelings or on God to guide me?

Sometimes feelings are appropriate and correctly express God’s guidance, but feelings can be unreliable. Sometimes detaching from feelings is a way of resetting them. Our feelings should be inline with the truth and not the truth in line with our feelings. That realignment is often part of spiritual growth.

 

[Pat_Albertson]

Only very very rarely have I felt the presence of anything holy. Mostly I just feel the daily grind. I just wish that I could feel Christ’s presence.

 

[Neoplatonist]

To take your analogy, though, isn’t it more that the feeling, itself, of being orphaned could have risen because you know or feel that you have done nothing to merit the love of your mother for you or that you have disconnected yourself from your mother’s love?

Correction is as much an aspect of motherhood as warm, fuzzy feelings.

God has a “longer” and “deeper” view of your formation. His presence or absence is there to form you for eternity, not merely for life in the current human culture.

In my case, it is not as if I felt it and then lost it. It’s always been sheer hope.

Believe me, I’m fine if the only presence is to say, “I’m not helping you with this, because [insert reason here: “I’m angry that you screwed up,” “I want you to learn x or y”, etc.].”

In getting back to the OP, though, shouldn’t SOME of the sheep at any given time feel like they are being carried and transformed, or whatever. If nearly all of the sheep just feel lost and scared, that seems as problematic as a teacher in whose class most or all of the students are confused and falling behind grade level. Why do we see so very, very few students at the top of the grading scale?

 

[Peter_Plato]

In my case, it is not as if I felt it and then lost it. It’s always been sheer hope.

Believe me, I’m fine if the only presence is to say, “I’m not helping you with this, because [insert reason here: “I’m angry that you screwed up,” “I want you to learn x or y”, etc.].”

In getting back to the OP, though, shouldn’t SOME of the sheep at any given time feel like they are being carried and transformed, or whatever. If nearly all of the sheep just feel lost and scared, that seems as problematic as a teacher in whose class most or all of the students are confused and falling behind grade level. Why do we see so very, very few students at the top of the grading scale?

Perhaps the obvious “clobbering you over the head” response to your errors or “screwing up” does not in any way “tune you” to becoming more finely aware of the signals. Perhaps God is calling you to refine your ability to read the signals - fine tuning you to becoming more discerning in your awareness. No “big signals” just refining your potential to pick up the small, subtle hints.

It may be true that in our current situation, culture wise, we have the kind of confusion and apparent “falling behind” that you depict, but I am reasonably certain that similar feelings accompanied individual Christians during the persecutions of the Roman period, but that does not mean we ought to panic or feel afraid merely because those around us are. The saints and martyrs were those who kept their “lamps lit,” so to speak, even through the fear and panic around them.

Feelings are fickle masters and, ultimately, I think, Truth, the “presence” is far more immanent and pervasive than feelings if you look through or past them. Again, in Whom do you place your trust, in consolation or God as the Absolute?

From the Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis…

Happy is the man whom Truth by itself doth teach, not by figures and transient words, but as it is in itself. Our own judgment and feelings often deceive us, and we discern but little of the truth. …

1. …The man to whom all things are one, who bringeth all things to one, who seeth all things in one, he is able to remain steadfast of spirit, and at rest in God. O God, who art the Truth, make me one with Thee in everlasting love. It wearieth me oftentimes to read and listen to many things; in Thee is all that I wish for and desire. …

1. The more a man hath unity and simplicity in himself, the more things and the deeper things he understandeth; and that without labour, because he receiveth the light of understanding from above. The spirit which is pure, sincere, and steadfast, is not distracted though it hath many works to do, because it doth all things to the honour of God, and striveth to be free from all thoughts of self-seeking. Who is so full of hindrance and annoyance to thee as thine own undisciplined heart? … Who hath a harder battle to fight than he who striveth for self-mastery? And this should be our endeavour, even to master self, and thus daily to grow stronger than self, and go on unto perfection.

 

[Neoplatonist]

Perhaps the obvious “clobbering you over the head” response to your errors or “screwing up” does not in any way “tune you” to becoming more finely aware of the signals. Perhaps God is calling you to refine your ability to read the signals - fine tuning you to becoming more discerning in your awareness. No “big signals” just refining your potential to pick up the small, subtle hints.

It may be true that in our current situation, culture wise, we have the kind of confusion and apparent “falling behind” that you depict, but I am reasonably certain that similar feelings accompanied individual Christians during the persecutions of the Roman period, but that does not mean we ought to panic or feel afraid merely because those around us are. The saints and martyrs were those who kept their “lamps lit,” so to speak, even through the fear and panic around them.

Feelings are fickle masters and, ultimately, I think, Truth, the “presence” is far more immanent and pervasive than feelings if you look through or past them. Again, in Whom do you place your trust, in consolation or God as the Absolute?

From the Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis…

1. …The man to whom all things are one, who bringeth all things to one, who seeth all things in one, he is able to remain steadfast of spirit, and at rest in God. O God, who art the Truth, make me one with Thee in everlasting love. It wearieth me oftentimes to read and listen to many things; in Thee is all that I wish for and desire. …

Clever. Great quote from Thomas a Kempis, too.

 

[Neoplatonist]

To return to my original analogy, though, if I don’t see people slowing down, why would I believe their claim that they saw a policeman pointing a radar gun at their car? Why is that analogy flawed?

Is it because we are horrible drivers and speed anyway? That is circular. I would argue that the reason people are horrible drivers is precisely because they do not think the police are watching.

 

[PRmerger]

To return to my original analogy, though, if I don’t see people slowing down, why would I believe their claim that they saw a policeman pointing a radar gun at their car? Why is that analogy flawed?

Why don’t you flesh out the analogs for us?

What is the claim they are making analogous to , vis a vis the Catholic Church’s teachings?

 

[Neoplatonist]

Why don’t you flesh out the analogs for us?

What is the claim they are making analogous to , vis a vis the Catholic Church’s teachings?

I can barely begin to enumerate all the phrases, passages, and metaphors by which we are told in the tradition that God is watching over us. That he has numbered the hairs on our head and sees the sparrow fall. The real presence in communion and adoration. The consolation and joy that are fruits of the Holy Spirit. That He hears and answers our prayers. That He is there when two or three gather in His name. That we are one body, vine and branches. . . .]

 

[PRmerger]

I can barely begin to enumerate all the phrases, passages, and metaphors by which we are told in the tradition that God is watching over us. That he has numbered the hairs on our head and sees the sparrow fall. The real presence in communion and adoration. The consolation and joy that are fruits of the Holy Spirit. That He hears and answers our prayers. That He is there when two or three gather in His name. That we are one body, vine and branches. . . .]

Ah.

So you don’t believe that God is watching us?