Q for Christians: Why were the Magi looking for Jesus?

  • Thread starter Thread starter HashemEchad
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Have there been responses to this book?

What the Talmud Really Says About Jesus
I’d never heard of that book until just now. I clicked on your link and was curious as to whether the author is Jewish or Christian. I see where it says he is a German Christian, so evidently he is not as familiar with the actual situations re: the Talmud as a rabbinical scholar who studies it daily.

I have to say that I have never been taught that anything in the Talmud refers to the Nazarene. The link I posted for you will give you more accurate info, and from a Jewish point of view.
 
As a countermissionary involved in exit counseling, do you have any IDEA how often I’ve seen lists like that…and refuted every one of them? Its not like anyone here is showing me anything new.

If you care to read a refutation of them, go to messiahtruth.com 🙂
Firstly, the site is targeted at “Evangelical Christianity” and “Jews for Jesus”, neither of which are part of the Catholic Church.

Corinthians 9:20-22 on your site should actually read** 1** Corinthians 9:20-22. And to me, this is telling us how Paul was able to adapt to each group he encountered to teach them about Christ. It’s no different than St. Patrick going to Ireland and teaching about the Trinity using a shamrock or incorporating the pagan symbol of the circle into a message about the eternal nature of God. He’s not talking about being a deceiver, but saying it’s O.K. for people to maintain cultural traditions that do not contradict the Word of God and to use them as stepping stones to teaching them about Christ in ways they can uniquely relate to.

Regarding Romans 3:7, you need to read further:

“In verse 7 Paul is quoting a hypothetical argument that someone might use in order to justify lying: having quoted this argument he then refutes it! There is no way in which, having read the quotation in context, you could honestly accuse Paul of deception by teaching Christians to tell falsehoods.”

answering-islam.org/BibleCom/rom3-7.html

I believe Philippians 1:18 is referring to people who say they are Christians under false pretenses, for ambition, for instance.

Then we move into the standard anti-Christian fare on the site:

In the year 325 CE, Constantine (a non-baptized Pagan) convened the Council of Nicea to settle disputes in the Church. The council changed Jesus from man to God in the flesh, they changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, and the Passover was changed to Easter. Among the nearly 200 Gospels circulating in the first three hundred years of this era, the Catholic Church canonized only four. Origen, the great Catholic father, confirms this fact: “And not four Gospels, but very many, out of which these we have chosen.”

If you read the Early Church Fathers, prior to 325 A.D., you will learn that the Divinity of Christ was not in question. It was the nature of His Divinity that was being raised by heretical groups like the Arians… Your site is a treasure-trove of the tired and worn, typical accusations against Christianity and in particular, the Catholic Church that some time spent in the Catholic Answers library will fully refute:

catholic.com/

Just as you say, “Do you know how OFTEN I’ve seen lists like that?” Well, we come full circle, because do you know how OFTEN I’ve seen lists like the ones on* your *website?
 
Yeshu and Jesus were very common names in ancient times. There are several people with those names mentioned in the Talmud, and as far as I know, none refer to the Nazarene.

This created a lot of confusion in the Middle Ages, when Catholic theologians who did not know Jewish history well, tried to translate the Talmud from the Aramaic it is written in, and automatically assumed any “Jesus” they saw referred to THEIR Jesus. This resulted in the Talmud being burned in France and other places in medieval times, and the Jews forcibly converted to Catholicism.
Rubbish - in our own NT we’ve got references to Jesus Barabbas who was released in the stead of Jesus, and we’ve always known that it was a common name being basically if not actually the same name as ‘Joshua’.

If Talmuds were burned it was in the same way as erroneous translations of the Bible were burned, because they went against the faith that medieval Europeans thought they needed to protect at all costs. 🤷
 
My older sister wrote an interesting article about this subject many years ago, I’m just wondering what all of you think.

Why do you think a group of Magi (singular: mage, meaning magician/astrologer) were looking for Jesus via the Eastern Star?
They were not!! :cool:

They were what we might today call: astronomers. They observed the heavens. They saw an unusual event, so unusual that it was formerly unheard of. It was often taken that unusual astronomical phenomena was a sign of some sort, usually to mark a significant event. They noticed this great light in the sky was moving at a discernably slow pace that it could be followed so they decided to follow it.

They simply made sure whatever event it was marking, they were well prepared. When it came to rest, they knew that there was a very highly significant event taking place beneath it. 🙂

Blessings and peace
 
Rubbish - in our own NT we’ve got references to Jesus Barabbas who was released in the stead of Jesus, and we’ve always known that it was a common name being basically if not actually the same name as ‘Joshua’.

If Talmuds were burned it was in the same way as erroneous translations of the Bible were burned, because they went against the faith that medieval Europeans thought they needed to protect at all costs. 🤷
But they took books of a religion they did not belong to, a religion that only asked to be left alone, that did not try to convert those outside their faith, and burned them. In the case of Protestant Bibles, they took what they felt were heretical works of people who had been Catholics, and often still claimed to be Catholics.

Do you think its OK for a religion in power to take holy books belonging to other religions and burn them because they see them as a threat to their faith?

It would have been one thing if the medieval Jews were placing copies of the Talmud where Christians could read them, to try to convert them…but they weren’t.
 
These are all things that can only be taken on faith by Christians, because there is no historical evidence that these things happened, apart from the NT (which to me, reads like a 1st century infomercial for a new, struggling religion.)
If I’m to take your parameters, that historical evidence must confirm an event, let’s take this thought into the context of the Exodus.

Can you provide the historical proof that God provided food for the Jews in the wilderness for 40 years? And can you also point me to the archeological evidence that proves that the Jews lived in Egypt as slaves, escaped, parted the Red Sea and then wandered in the wilderness for 40 years?

Do you see how your expectations are flawed? It’s a little hypocritical to ask that nothing be taken on faith, yet take so much on faith in your own tradition.

And there is much to be said about the proofs of the New Testament historically. Let’s work with one, regarding the Resurrection, specifically the empty tomb. Early Jewish responses to the Resurrection* presuppose* the empty tomb. In other words, that knew that the tomb *was *empty and tried to explain why: “The disciples stole away the body”. The Christians responded to this by reciting the story of the guard at the tomb, and the polemic in turn charged that the guard fell asleep. Now the noteworthy feature of this whole dispute is not the historicity of the guards but rather the presupposition of both parties that the body was missing. The earliest Jewish response to the proclamation of the resurrection was an attempt to explain away the empty tomb. Thus, the evidence of the adversaries of the disciples provides evidence in support of the empty tomb…

“By far most exegetes hold firmly to the reliability of the biblical statements concerning the empty tomb” and he furnishes a list, to which his own name may be added, of twenty-eight prominent scholars in support. I can think of at least sixteen more names that he failed to mention.** Thus, it is today widely recognized that the empty tomb of Jesus is a simple historical fact."**

More here: leaderu.com/truth/1truth22.html
 
A Christian would never ask me to prove my Bible’s veracity, because the Jewish Bible is also part of their religious beliefs. If they deny the Jewish Bible, they deny the foundation of their own religion.

But the Christian Bible is not part of mine.
 
Although Hashem keeps cramming down our throats about how wonderful the Jews are, meanwhile defaming the New Testament and saying if Jews believe in Christ, they are doomed to eternal damnation and thrown into the fires of hell. Do they teach you this in Hebrew school?
I also would like to know why she constantly quotes her biography here which has nothing to do with any of the posts?
 
As a countermissionary involved in exit counseling, do you have any IDEA how often I’ve seen lists like that…and refuted every one of them? Its not like anyone here is showing me anything new.

If you care to read a refutation of them, go to messiahtruth.com 🙂
Would you please try and refute them here? It would help us in our apologetics.

That website is not very convincing at all. It takes Biblical passages out of context and distorts their meaning. It is not from people who want to teach about their religion but who are bitter and afraid about being inculcated. They are fighting tooth for tooth and nail to not accept the Gospel but they are not doing it convincingly. I believe there are better sites out there than this, I do not know of any, but, this is not a good site for evangilazation and teaching. The site is nothing but strawmen about our Sacrificial Lamb.
 
They were not!! :cool:

They were what we might today call: astronomers. They observed the heavens. They saw an unusual event, so unusual that it was formerly unheard of. It was often taken that unusual astronomical phenomena was a sign of some sort, usually to mark a significant event. They noticed this great light in the sky was moving at a discernably slow pace that it could be followed so they decided to follow it.

They simply made sure whatever event it was marking, they were well prepared. When it came to rest, they knew that there was a very highly significant event taking place beneath it. 🙂

Blessings and peace
Sorry, this is both incorrect and unbiblical - they knew EXACTLY what the star signified before they even came to Judea - the birth of a new King of the Jews who was also divine. They didn’t just see it as a ‘sign of some sort’ related to ‘a (unspecified) very highly significant event’. Even though they didn’t know precisely where in Judea this divine King was to be born (and needed both the guidance of Jewish prophecy and the movement of the star itself to lead them to the stable of Bethlehem), they sure knew why they were there!

That’s why they went straight to Herod (since they logically assumed the present King would know about the birth of a new one) and said (Matt 2:2) “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.”
 
You are treading on dangerous ground now, because the “OT” is part of YOUR religion too! However, the “NT” is not part of mine.

If the “OT” is made up of “fairy tales”, then that means there are no prophecies of Jesus in it after all, right? Good to see you finally admit it. 🙂

Have you ever heard of the Marcionite heresy of the earlier Christian church? You are treading dangerously close to sounding like one.
No you are mistaken to Cathdefender. We believe in the “fairy tales” in the OT as inspired by God, and see the fulfillment in the NT, which you also implied as “fairy tales”.

The question is why do you believe in the “fairy tales” of the OT but not the NT?
 
My older sister wrote an interesting article about this subject many years ago, I’m just wondering what all of you think.

Why do you think a group of Magi (singular: mage, meaning magician/astrologer) were looking for Jesus via the Eastern Star?

IMHO the passage is theology in the form of a story - but this does not make it any less true or valuable than it has been deemed to be these last 2,000 years; there is a change in how it is understood as true, but not in its truth.​

Which is not to deny that it is composed of elements, which taken separately rather than altogether (as in Matt 1-2) may be based on historical realities: the star is not likely to have “stood over” where Jesus was born so as to show where - that would have burnt the place & the surrounding area. Details such as this do not favour taking the whole thing as historical - to do so, makes needless difficulties.

The passage about the Magi gives us (for instance):
  • Psalm 72
  • Numbers 24.17
  • Matthew’s model of Jesus as Davidic King - there are other models for Jesus too
    The presentation of Jesus as King is fundamental to this Gospel - & it begins here, as those two passages imply.
The passage cannot really be taken in isolation from the Baptism & the Temptation. The latter continues the Exodus theme begun in 2, where Jesus is identified as Moses & Israel. The various models for Jesus in this gospel are organically inter-related; no one of them can be
taken in isolation.

The influence of the Messianic Secret: Jesus is recognised by non-Jews, & rejected by His own People. The people one would imagine must know Who He is, don’t - whereas He is made known to Gentiles, women, sinners, & the like. The lack of recognition is maybe a function of Jesus as hidden,or unknown,** Messiah**. (Cf. the child in Rev. 12).

Which suggests: Jesus is recognised by the Magi, who have read the stars (a practice denounced in the Tanakh) - whereas those possessed the Tanakh, did not recognize their King when He came. This last detail tallies with St. Paul’ s words in Rom. 2.

There is also a parallel between Herod & the Pharaoh “who knew not Joseph” - both are kingly, both murderous, both fail in their purpose: just like the great red dragon in Rev. 12 (Revelation reminds me of Matthew a good deal); which is a reminder that the gospels are strongly predestinarian - nothing can hinder God’s purpose, & attempts to hinder it, only serve to forward it. The birth of Augustus was called “good news”, which is remarkable: the euangelion of Jesus is confronted by the euangelion of the man in whose reign Jesus was born. This is very relevant to what sort of literature a euangelion is - it hints (though it does no more than hint) that the Euangelion, written or preached is of its very nature about the King of Kings.

The theme of the MS is of great importance - especially when joined with the Kingship of God: AFAICS, the NT is shot through with a fusion of the two themes: so Jesus is presented as a royal figure: His Father is King, therefore Jesus is Heir to the Kingdom, which is why He is the Davidic King. Isaiah 6 is of great importance here - it is quoted in Mark. 4.11-12, & is a passage about God as King.

Psalm 89 may be important - if the Servant passage in Isaiah 52-53.12 is read in the light of it, the function of Jesus as King, therefore as sin-bearer is suggested. This would make the Death of Jesus a conquest of death (which is a royal action), & therefore more intelligible Parts of Ps. 89 would fit the sufferings of Jesus rather well.

The riding on a donkey gains in meaning when one remembers that Solomon (Psalm 72.1) rode to his crowning on one (1 Kings 1.34). It is hard to believe that the Evangelists missed that passage - & as Matt. 6 shows Jesus as “something more than Solomon”, it is not easy to believe Matthew would overlook the passage in Kings; it would imply the status of Jesus, for those with eyes to see it, without insisting on it.

All this is scratching the surface - hope it helps anyway :o
 
A Christian would never ask me to prove my Bible’s veracity, because the Jewish Bible is also part of their religious beliefs. If they deny the Jewish Bible, they deny the foundation of their own religion.

But the Christian Bible is not part of mine.
I never said I as asking you to prove the Jewish Bible’s veracity. I’m illustrating how you are a hypocrite for saying that Christian belief is faulty because we rely, in part, on faith where the historical record is silent. Do you or do you not take it on faith that the story in Exodus happened, since there is no historical or archeological evidence to prove it? How is that any different from a Christian who takes certain teachings on faith? See, you take some of what is in what we call the Old Testament on faith, where historical evidence may be lacking. We take some of what is in the Old and New Testament on faith, where historical evidence may be lacking. How are we different?

Do you see your faulty logic?!?!
 
Well, since Hitler and neo-Nazi go together, I’d say it would not invalidate it.

But since neoNazis hate Jews, and often look for any ay they can to distort our beliefs or activities, I’d say to quote from their site regarding a group they hate would not be a smart idea.
If that so, would it be smart to quote comments about Jesus from a Jewist site?
 
A Christian would never ask me to prove my Bible’s veracity, because the Jewish Bible is also part of their religious beliefs. If they deny the Jewish Bible, they deny the foundation of their own religion.

But the Christian Bible is not part of mine.
That just show your double standard kind of logic.
 
But they took books of a religion they did not belong to, a religion that only asked to be left alone, that did not try to convert those outside their faith, and burned them.
I do not think that the Jews of that era could be described as “only wanting to be left alone.” They did their own share of provocation. The medieval Christians did wrong, but they were not mere bullies - they were responding in kind to various provocations from the Jewish community.
 
QUOTE=Cathdefender;3772252]Although Hashem keeps cramming down our throats about how wonderful the Jews are, meanwhile defaming the New Testament and saying if Jews believe in Christ, they are doomed to eternal damnation and thrown into the fires of hell. Do they teach you this in Hebrew school?
I also would like to know why she constantly quotes her biography here which has nothing to do with any of the posts?
The Jews were Gods chosen. They are also our ancestors. Christ was a Jew. I believe we have a duty of care towards our Jewish kith and kin. as indeed all creation. 🙂

Blessings and peace
 
The Jews were Gods chosen. They are also our ancestors. Christ was a Jew. I believe we have a duty of care towards our Jewish kith and kin. as indeed all creation. 🙂

Blessings and peace
Yes, also the other way around, but doesn’t seem as though it works that way now does it?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top