I don’t think you would deny that the eastern Church holds to a different canon and always has
Q. What Is the Greatest of All Protestant “Heresies”? A. Assurance
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steve-b
Guest
Eastern Catholics don’t have a different canon. They are completely united to the chair of Peter and all those who are the samesteve-b:
I don’t think you would deny that the eastern Church holds to a different canon and always has
non-Catholics are who you’re talking about. Those NOT in union with the chair of Peter and in extension, by definition,
Therefore NOT in union with
Our Lord’s prayer .
Jn 17: (emphasis mine)
20 "I do not pray for these only, (namely His apostles) but also for those who believe in me through their word, (all of His Church that only He established) 21* that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory which you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,( not even a pinhole of light separates them) 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, ( not just sorta one but perfectly one) so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
Nor
Paul’s instruction
“I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought” (1 Cor. 1:10)
That’s why earlier I showed the consequences to all those who are divided
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Eastern Orthodoxy, which is the eastern Church, has a different canon, Steve.
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As you know, Steve, I don’t accept the notion that the one holy Catholic and apostolic Church resides only and exclusively in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
That said, our divisions are mutual, as much yours as mine
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steve-b
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They are an Eastern Church. They are NOT Catholic and therefore NOT in union with the chair of Peter. Therefore, they are NOT the Eastern Church…steve-b:
Eastern Orthodoxy, which is the eastern Church, has s different canon, Steve.
Actually I misspoke. Each one is an individual Eastern Church with different heads. They aren’t one Church. They are many Churches. No ONE unites them. Going back in history, I’ve asked the question for 13 years on CAF. When is the first time in history, in writing, properly referenced, where we see the name “Orthodox Church”. I asked that of Orthodox, and anyone who might have an answer. No answer… yet.
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steve-b
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Good luck proving that to Jesus.steve-b:
As you know, Steve, I don’t accept the notion that the one holy Catholic and apostolic Church resides only and exclusively in communion with the Bishop of Rome. That said, our divisions are mutual, as much yours as mine
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You know me, Steve. I’ve never been a fan of triumphalism from any direction
They are Catholic and not in communion with the Bishop of Rome
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PickyPicky
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Sorry, there seems to be some static on the line. 
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tgGodsway
Guest
no… no… the greatest heresy is not assurance, but doubt, fear and disillusion over how one becomes and stays, eternally saved. The good news isn’t that great after all, with this approach. How many people have a smile on their face after understanding the complicated maze of a process to eventually obtain eternal life from a RC perspective?
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nodelink
Guest
tgg, our concern should be to seek first the Kingdom of God rather than seeking personal food, personal clothing (Matthew 6) and personal salvation . The Kingdom of God is much greater news and its advancement is a much greater cause than personal salvation.
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D.Caldera
Guest
I am sorry if this either offends or confuses you, but this is a problematic approach you have taken. Since there are so many Protestant denominations, one can easily say they haven’t done what a number of Protestant denominations preach. Simply look at Protestantism as any Christian faith outside of the RCC after 1530AD. I have no desire to endlessly split hairs over each and every denomination’s belief system. You say you confessed to a “Lutheran” priest. But confession is a Catholic sacrament. No Lutheran priest has the authority to grant absolution. It doesn’t matter which “Catholic-like” actions you have taken - you are outside of the body. At the last supper, there are two interesting events…
Jesus tells Peter that the devil wishes to sift the apostles. Later, Jesus prays to the Father for unity that the apostles and those that follow will be one, just and He is one with the Father. Very simple - the devil wants division and Jesus wants unity. Now comes Martin Luther who did the devil’s work by bringing division - for 500 years now. How can one believe that confession to a priest in an apostate faith named after Luther would be efficacious? One is either a part of the Apostolic church/body formed by Jesus and the apostles, or one is outside of it. The question is - why aren’t you a part of the church Christ and the apostles created? All other “Protestant” variations are a waste of time and effort to dicker over.
Jesus tells Peter that the devil wishes to sift the apostles. Later, Jesus prays to the Father for unity that the apostles and those that follow will be one, just and He is one with the Father. Very simple - the devil wants division and Jesus wants unity. Now comes Martin Luther who did the devil’s work by bringing division - for 500 years now. How can one believe that confession to a priest in an apostate faith named after Luther would be efficacious? One is either a part of the Apostolic church/body formed by Jesus and the apostles, or one is outside of it. The question is - why aren’t you a part of the church Christ and the apostles created? All other “Protestant” variations are a waste of time and effort to dicker over.
I’m neither offended nor confused. I’m just responding to your false statements.
Protestantism is not a faith. Christianity is a faith. Protestantism isn’t even a communion or a tradition, and never has been. It is simply and only a general term that loosely and randomly categorizes communions and groups that are western Christians not in communion with the Bishop of Rome
. And ironically, it is not even a term based on a “protest” of the Church.
If you haven’t the knowledge to speak about specific communions or traditions, that is fine, but making false generalizations doesn’t help the discussion at all.
Now this is curious because it is entirely outside of Catholic teaching, AFAIK. There is a document called the Catholic Catechism. It is long, but starting in section 817, it talks about western non-Catholic Christians, and no where does it use the term apostate. I’ve quoted starting at 818
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818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272
819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276**
I hope this helps
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sainteriksrose
Guest
Its very existence, as it has kept souls from receiving our Lord’s Body and Blood as He said we must do to have life in us with its misrepresentations of Christianity. (John 6)
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Livenotonevil
Guest
I argue the greatest of Protestant heresies is Sola Scriptura.
It’s because of this dang heresy that there are nearly 10,000 Christian denominations, and it’s why most people today subscribe to Moral Relativism.
It’s because of this dang heresy that there are nearly 10,000 Christian denominations, and it’s why most people today subscribe to Moral Relativism.
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Wannano
Guest
What happened to the other 30,000? Surely I didn’t miss the rapture…
po18guy
Well-known member
As to the thread title, I don’t think so. Rather, it is the rejection of our Lord’s words “He who hears you hears Me” - the utter and complete dismissal of the Apostolic teaching, and the elevation to near deity of the written tradition.
As to assurance, we may have it, but not as an absolute. Saint Paul wrote of our sure hope. “Sure” and “assurance” have the same root.
As to assurance, we may have it, but not as an absolute. Saint Paul wrote of our sure hope. “Sure” and “assurance” have the same root.
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tgGodsway
Guest
I agree the importance is greater, but the narrow subject of how one becomes saved has a real bible answer which tells me that God wanted us to know. If it was important to God, we too should regard it as important.
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tgGodsway
Guest
I hear these views and would contend that the church at Rome is not the centerpiece to Christianity, though it believes it is, The RCC is not the measuring stick to all truth, though it thinks it is.
It is not the totality of communion in Christ, though it may think it is.
The centerpiece to all of Christianity is not PROTESTANT either. It is not of this world at all. Division and divisiveness are tools of the enemy (satan) who pits one against the other. Spiritual pride is the oil that works his engine.
It is not the totality of communion in Christ, though it may think it is.
The centerpiece to all of Christianity is not PROTESTANT either. It is not of this world at all. Division and divisiveness are tools of the enemy (satan) who pits one against the other. Spiritual pride is the oil that works his engine.
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steve-b
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I understand.steve-b:
You know me, Steve. I’ve never been a fan of triumphalism from any direction
Triumphalism loosely put = the attitude that one religious creed is superior to all others. Was that definition invented by someone on the wrong side of things, and was ticked off about being told so?
Since Protestantism no matter the stripe, is 100% man made, by heretical individuals, none of them can claim superiority OVER ANY OTHER no matter who, so I get that.
However,
When any of them denies, objects, rejects, triumphalism of the one Church Jesus established on Peter and those united to him, the Catholic Church, as no better or worse than any of the 20-30,000 + heretical man-made sects competing with Our Lord’s Church, and in effect claiming equality with what Our Lord did, THAT’S why there is a permanent separation for all eternity in the end, that Paul warns them of. At their death as individual souls in those organizations, once they know the truth and don’t change, then Paul says the argument is over. The warnings are over. Separation occurs forever for them.
[ διχοστασίαι ] = http://bibleapps.com/greek/1370.htm = division, schism, dissension, sedition, standing apart from, having formed pointless (groundless) factions and sects, and that describes Protestantism of all stripes.
As the CCC defines schism 2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”
Schism describes E Orthodox. And it’s condemned, as is heresy.
You already know this. Note that continued denial or doubt doesn’t let one off the hook.
Rom 16: Paul To the Church of Rome,
7 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions [ διχοστασίαι ] and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, … I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil; 20 then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
And the consequences of that sin on one’s soul who dies divided from Our Lord’s Church? Paul warns
Gal 5:
19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, …, dissension [ διχοστασίαι ], … and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Paul to bishop Titus
Titus 3:10
“As for a man who is factious ( αἱρετικὸν heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”
There’s that theme of 2 warnings, and that’s it.
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