Q. What Is the Greatest of All Protestant “Heresies”? A. Assurance

[D.Caldera]

They are apostates - and by having separated themselves from the Apostolic church, they have become, in essence, idolaters. The problem with this claim of mine is that we associate the word “Idolater” strictly as someone who worships statues. But the idol is simply the visible element of the practice. The sin of idolatry is that the idol-worshipper is trying to change the relationship between God and man. God has set the rules in the form of His teaching, rites, ceremonies, sacraments, etc. These establish how He wants us to relate to Him. But the idol-worshipper does not want this, so he produces his own God(s) so he has control of the relationship.

It is not by accident that the ancient pagan pantheon of gods just happened to agree with what the humans who made them want out of life. So, there are gods of war, sex, drinking, hedonism, etc. These idol-worshippers are, therefore, not sinning - they are obeying what their gods want of them. It is wonderfully convenient - “I am not sinning when I kill, get drunk, or have illicit sex… I’m obeying the gods.” O.K., now what does this have to do with Protestantism?

The Reformation had nothing to do with “reforming” the RCC - it was about breaking away from its authority to worship as they please. Protestantism is man’s desired way to relate to Christianity. All things that are out-going or demanding are rejected: Confession to a priest, penance, purgatory, prayer for the dead, obedience to the Pope and Cardinals, celibacy, etc. In Protestantism, the formula tries to gain salvation and eternal reward as quickly, easily, and cheaply as possible. One says their sinner’s prayer and is saved. Period. No works, devotions, or charities or anything like that is ever important or required.

But this does not mean that Protestants will be damned. I believe there was a pope who stated that the Lord works His salvific purpose even in the Protestant churches. But the Protestants are exposing themselves to potential harm on the day of judgement.

 

[nodelink]

Amen. Catholics are not alone in these.

Yes, but how many “evangelicals”, “anglicans”, “protestants” have made themselves celibates so that they can better serve the Lord Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God? The Catholic Church has many of these (male and female).

I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided. - 1 Corinthians 7:32–34

 

[nodelink]

Protestantism is man’s desired way to relate to Christianity. All things that are out-going or demanding are rejected: Confession to a priest, penance, purgatory, prayer for the dead, obedience to the Pope and Cardinals, celibacy, etc. In Protestantism, the formula tries to gain salvation and eternal reward as quickly, easily, and cheaply as possible. One says their sinner’s prayer and is saved. Period. No works, devotions, or charities or anything like that is ever important or required.

Oh…strong words…but sadly this description fits well with what has been observed in many times and places.

 

[JonNC]

Yes, but how many “evangelicals”, “anglicans”, “protestants” have made themselves celibates so that they can better serve the Lord Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God? The Catholic Church has many of these (male and female).

Are you condemning Eastern Catholics and Orthodox, too?

 

[JonNC]

They are apostates - and by having separated themselves from the Apostolic church, they have become, in essence, idolaters. The problem with this claim of mine is that we associate the word “Idolater” strictly as someone who worships statues.

Who are apostates? The “they” is vague.

 

[JonNC]

Protestantism is man’s desired way to relate to Christianity. All things that are out-going or demanding are rejected: Confession to a priest, penance, purgatory, prayer for the dead, obedience to the Pope and Cardinals, celibacy, etc

Oh, I see. More of the polemical misuse of the term Protestant.
I have confessed to a priest- as a Lutheran in the past and now as an Anglican. I haven’t died yet, so Purgatory hasn’t played a part yet. I do pray for the dead. I witnessed the "obedience to the Pope and the Cardinals " on this forum just recently regarding the bashing they took by Catholics over the 500th anniversary of the Reformation. Some Catholics sounded like sedevacantists or the worst of the anti Catholics.

So, please. The triumphalist we’re more righteous than you nonsense rings quite hollow.

 

[JonNC]

In Protestantism, the formula tries to gain salvation and eternal reward as quickly, easily, and cheaply as possible. One says their sinner’s prayer and is saved. Period. No works, devotions, or charities or anything like that is ever important or required.

So, specifically, which Protestant communion teaches your accusation here? A link please, so I can join you in condemning it.
And if you can, explain how it applies to those who are not members of that group. You see, I’ve never said the Sinners Prayer. I’ve never said or believed it saves. Period. I’ve never been a member of a communion that says “no works, devotions, or charities or anything like that is ever important or required.”

 

[Muzhik]

Apologies. The only two I can name in North America are The Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ and the United Pentecostal Church International. Both of these are leading Oneness Pentacostal churches; however, there are many others which are not official members of these denominations. Given that there are over 35,000 different denominations in the world I took at face value the “dozens upon hundreds” figure I had heard in years past.

 

[nodelink]

Are you condemning Eastern Catholics and Orthodox, too?

The Catholic Church has spoken to the need for Christian unity many times and importantly as part of the Vatican II Council in 1965.

1. The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Christ; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ Himself were divided. Such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages the holy cause of preaching the Gospel to every creature.
   But the Lord of Ages wisely and patiently follows out the plan of grace on our behalf, sinners that we are. In recent times more than ever before, He has been rousing divided Christians to remorse over their divisions and to a longing for unity. Everywhere large numbers have felt the impulse of this grace, and among our separated brethren also there increases from day to day the movement, fostered by the grace of the Holy Spirit, for the restoration of unity among all Christians. This movement toward unity is called “ecumenical.” Those belong to it who invoke the Triune God and confess Jesus as Lord and Savior, doing this not merely as individuals but also as corporate bodies. For almost everyone regards the body in which he has heard the Gospel as his Church and indeed, God’s Church. All however, though in different ways, long for the one visible Church of God, a Church truly universal and set forth into the world that the world may be converted to the Gospel and so be saved, to the glory of God.

Decree On Ecumenism
Unitatis Redintegratio
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1965

 

[Wannano]

**

Apologies. The only two I can name in North America are The Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ and the United Pentecostal Church International. Both of these are leading Oneness Pentacostal churches; however, there are many others which are not official members of these denominations. Given that there are over 35,000 different denominations in the world I took at face value the “dozens upon hundreds” figure I had heard in years past.

Thank you. I am guilty of overstating my concerns sometimes too. I would encourage you to also consider the usage of the 35,000 different denominations. This also is non-productive in that it lacks integrity. Sort of like if I was to say “most priests sexually molest young boys.” It is not substantiated and totally not necessary.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

So you’re excusing Luther , Henry VIII, Calvin, etc etc etc all corrupters of the faith. And those corruptions are still with us today. BTW we still have indulgences. Just because some in the Church abused the teaching didn’t corrupt the entire Church. For all we know, the consequences for those who divided was levied on them by God when they died.

Nope. I said enough blame to go around. I wasn’t excluding anyone. I’ve said on this thread already twice, or more, that I believe Luther was wrong about the canon. What I am saying is it wasn’t Luther who opened the door of division.

Satan has made sure to tempt people that they can always walk through that door, with no consequences to them, no repercussion on them. That’s why I quoted those passages earlier about division. That’s what he does. He’s a lier. And he’s real good at it. And he keeps people who are on the wrong side of the issue, on the wrong side, and convinces them to fight to stay on the wrong side as if they are right.

you didn’t open up any of these links Q. What Is the Greatest of All Protestant “Heresies”? A. Assurance - #94 by steve-b

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Jon,

You have a habit of not opening links I provide. Please open this link and look at myth #5 and Jerome, 5 Myths about 7 Books

Jerome corrected himself. Your argument isn’t valid

The quote isn’t from Jerome. It is from Cajetan. If Jerome corrected himself, Cajetan missed it.

Jerome changed his position

JonNC:

BTW, I’ve made none of the arguments from the link.

To make the point, Jerome changed his position St. Jerome and the Deuterocanonicals: Response to a Critique

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[brian_custer]

nce_(theology). There are entire Protestant books on assurance. For examples, see books by Thomas Brooks, William Guthrie, J.C. Ryle and more cited in the Wikipedia article on Assurance_(theology). Guaranteed assurance of eternal life is not so easily obtained.

Hypocrites are often falsely assured.

you post a thread beginning in a question and then answer the question based on your own opionion

IMO; the protestant denial & hatred of Mother Mary is their “greatest heresy”

 

[Muzhik]

Thank you. I am guilty of overstating my concerns sometimes too. I would encourage you to also consider the usage of the 35,000 different denominations. This also is non-productive in that it lacks integrity. Sort of like if I was to say “most priests sexually molest young boys.” It is not substantiated and totally not necessary.

My figure for the number of denominations came from World Christian Encyclopedia by Barrett, Kurian, Johnson (Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001). In 2001 they counted 33,000 different denominations worldwide. You’ll find an excellent explanation of that figure on the Biblical Catholicism website ( The Facts and Stats on 33000 Denominations: World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition) ). According to that website, the number of different Christian denominations worldwide stands at a hair under 48,5000.

 

[nodelink]

My figure for the number of denominations came from World Christian Encyclopedia by Barrett, Kurian, Johnson (Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001). In 2001 they counted 33,000 different denominations worldwide. You’ll find an excellent explanation of that figure on the Biblical Catholicism website ( The Facts and Stats on 33000 Denominations: World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition) ). According to that website, the number of different Christian denominations worldwide stands at a hair under 48,5000.

In my local area, I can observe a number of sandwich boards on Sunday mornings promoting stand-alone churches meeting in rented spaces like storefronts, public school buildings, hotels, other church buildings, YMCA’s, etc. These stand-alone gatherings are probably not even being counted in reports on numbers of denominations.

The number of stand-alone “splinter groups” may be estimated but probably cannot be counted. They seem to go into business and out of business quickly so the number would change quickly.

It seems like stand-alones can put up a sign and claim to be a church of Jesus Christ and administer their sacraments without paying any fees (like into a restaurant franchise) or paying any dues.

 

[JonNC]

IMO; the protestant denial & hatred of Mother Mary is their “greatest heresy”

Please identify a group that hates the Blessed Virgin Mary, and provide a link so I can join you in condemning them.

 

[JonNC]

Satan has made sure to tempt people that they can always walk through that door, with no consequences to them, no repercussion on them. That’s why I quoted those passages earlier about division. That’s what he does. He’s a lier. And he’s real good at it. And he keeps people who are on the wrong side of the issue, on the wrong side, and convinces them to fight to stay on the wrong side as if they are right.

you didn’t open up any of these links Q. What Is the Greatest of All Protestant “Heresies”? A. Assurance

Steve, you’re assuming I’m contesting anything you say here. I’m not. I’m not contesting that the 73 book canon has been the position of the western Church for 1600 years. I’m not contesting Satan’s role in our divisions.
If I am on Christ’s side (note I didn’t claim Christ is on my side), and you are on Christ’s side, and if we both recognize that in each other, the single most important step in undoing Satan’s work is begun.

 

[JonNC]

The Catholic Church has spoken to the need for Christian unity many times and importantly as part of the Vatican II Council in 1965.

You didn’t answer my question. You said:
Yes, but how many “evangelicals”, “anglicans”, “protestants” have made themselves celibates so that they can better serve the Lord Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God? The Catholic Church has many of these (male and female).

As you know, priests are not required to be celibate in either group I mentioned. So are you condemning them, as well?

 

[PickyPicky]

And, moreover, there are, of course, celibate Anglican orders and communities, both male and female.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Satan has made sure to tempt people that they can always walk through that door, with no consequences to them, no repercussion on them. That’s why I quoted those passages earlier about division. That’s what he does. He’s a lier. And he’s real good at it. And he keeps people who are on the wrong side of the issue, on the wrong side, and convinces them to fight to stay on the wrong side as if they are right.

you didn’t open up any of these links Q. What Is the Greatest of All Protestant “Heresies”? A. Assurance

Steve, you’re assuming I’m contesting anything you say here. I’m not. I’m not contesting that the 73 book canon has been the position of the western Church for 1600 years. I’m not contesting Satan’s role in our divisions.
If I am on Christ’s side (note I didn’t claim Christ is on my side), and you are on Christ’s side, and if we both recognize that in each other, the single most important step in undoing Satan’s work is begun.

Jon,
When you make that particular distinction, “western Church”, it’s only natural for me to think you might have another point you want to make. Maybe I’m wrong about that.

I’m thinking globally. It comes from the chair of Peter.