Question about BoM on Original Sin

[Religio71]

Religio71,
Several have commented here that God intended for the garden of Eden to continue, and that that condition was a condition of perfection. They have also said that God’s presence has been lost in this life because of Adam and Eve. I didn’t say it–they did. They lamented the loss.

How can one not subconsciously think that they would be better off with a garden of Eden situation, if that is how they are taught about it? A poster said “Adam blew it” implying that he blew it for all of humankind.

I am saying that this life as it is does have a “fully intended good purpose.” I don’t sense that much of the Catholic response here has supported that position. It is as though they are saying this life is second-rate compared to “what it could have been.”

As to Catholic charity, I wasn’t talking about the church as an institution. I was talking about when you visit a country that is predominantly Catholic, their motivation should be so high (except for this constraint of having a little bit of misgiving about the impact of Adam’s sin on their progress and happiness) that the church wouldn’t have to offer institutional help, because the people would already be helping each other and already be so readily inspired and working effectively together that there would be no children going hungry at all, or virtually none.

For Catholics, in understanding that the Fall brought sin into the world, we also understand Christ is the source of grace in the world and erases all sin. So your notion that Catholics would have misgivings about the impact of Adam’s sin on progress and happiness doesn’t make sense, because of the grace that Jesus Christ brings into this world that literally erases the effects of Adam’s sin. Therefore we see that the Gospel of Jesus Christ (un-Restored ) sees much joy and happiness in spite of Adam’s sin. And in the end, the Restored Gospel that you believe in also sees it in this way, as we both see baptism as necessary, as is the need for Jesus Christ and everything that he did and does.

So, LDS believe that the Fall was a necessary part of the history of man. It was part of the Plan of Salvation created by God the Father and supported by Jesus Christ. It was necessary for us to progress and to “be fruitful and multiply”. So yes, the Book of Mormon does put a more “positive spin” on the Fall, by saying that we are the way we are now, and have the options that we do because of the Fall, which was planned by God.

Why would we not be better off in the Garden of Eden? How can it not be better than this life (I understand that the Book of Mormon says we would not have had children, however the Bible doesn’t say this explicitly). And yes, we were cut off from God and Heaven because of the Fall, which introduced sin into the world. Sin is being cut off from God, in Catholic belief. Jesus Christ restored our connection with God. I’ll glance at the previous comments, but that is our belief. Catholics believe that everytime they go to church, they worship the Trinity, are united with the saints of this world and in Heaven, as well as the angels (before we sing the Sanctus, the priest asks us to join with the choirs of angels in Heaven singing the unending praises of glory to God), and are literally united with Jesus Christ in his body and blood, the Eucharist. Therefore I don’t see that the Catholic view of the Fall can cause us to be dejected about this world, especially when Jesus Christ, the New Adam, saves all.

 

[ParkerD]

For Catholics, in understanding that the Fall brought sin into the world, we also understand Christ is the source of grace in the world and erases all sin. So your notion that Catholics would have misgivings about the impact of Adam’s sin on progress and happiness doesn’t make sense, because of the grace that Jesus Christ brings into this world that literally erases the effects of Adam’s sin. Therefore we see that the Gospel of Jesus Christ (un-Restored ) sees much joy and happiness in spite of Adam’s sin. And in the end, the Restored Gospel that you believe in also sees it in this way, as we both see baptism as necessary, as is the need for Jesus Christ and everything that he did and does.

So, LDS believe that the Fall was a necessary part of the history of man. It was part of the Plan of Salvation created by God the Father and supported by Jesus Christ. It was necessary for us to progress and to “be fruitful and multiply”. So yes, the Book of Mormon does put a more “positive spin” on the Fall, by saying that we are the way we are now, and have the options that we do because of the Fall, which was planned by God.

Why would we not be better off in the Garden of Eden? How can it not be better than this life (I understand that the Book of Mormon says we would not have had children, however the Bible doesn’t say this explicitly). And yes, we were cut off from God and Heaven because of the Fall, which introduced sin into the world. Sin is being cut off from God, in Catholic belief. Jesus Christ restored our connection with God. I’ll glance at the previous comments, but that is our belief. Catholics believe that everytime they go to church, they worship the Trinity, are united with the saints of this world and in Heaven, as well as the angels (before we sing the Sanctus, the priest asks us to join with the choirs of angels in Heaven singing the unending praises of glory to God), and are literally united with Jesus Christ in his body and blood, the Eucharist. Therefore I don’t see that the Catholic view of the Fall can cause us to be dejected about this world, especially when Jesus Christ, the New Adam, saves all.

Religo71,
Your questions, “Why would we not be better off in the Garden of Eden? How can it not be better than this life?” reflect the thought process I am talking about. One who asks those kinds of questions has something in their mind that says “I would be better off if Adam and Eve had not partaken of the forbidden fruit.” On the subconscious level, the impact of that belief is what I inferred presents a challenge.

One cannot say, “I would be better off…” and then turn around and say, “this life has a fully intended good purpose planned by God and carried out by humankind.” In other words, saying subconsciously “it is wonderful for us to be here in this world just as it is so we can progress together by working together and by learning together, just as God planned that we would. We need God’s help, and He will help us just as He planned that He would. The fall of Adam and Eve is a welcome step in the progress of humankind, and here we are making further progress by making choices guided by God if we seek God’s help.”

As to baptism, think of how the logical thought process would be of someone who is thinking as they consider an unbaptized person, “they need to be rescued by baptism from the effects of the fall of Adam, or else they are going to be in my world and be making it “worse off” by their very nature.” Does that not lead to some level of suspicion, perhaps even resentment at the subconscious level?

This “blame game” says Adam and Eve didn’t love God enough or had monumental pride so here we are in this fallen world among fallen people, and God wanted all this to be different but our ancestors “blew it”. Of course that leads to subconscious resentment, and a judgmental attitude toward everyone else in the world.

 

[majick275]

Majick,
Thanks for your reply. I agree that Adam lacked wisdom, but sometimes God leaves us on our own to figure out a “best choice under the circumstances.” Maybe Adam did ask God, and God may have kept silent because he wanted Adam to make a choice on his own. Don’t you think that might be possible?

no i don’t think it possible because the Bible clearly shows us that God was NOT silent on this. he told Adam not to eat the fruit. that simply wasn’t an allowable option

I am saying that eating the forbidden fruit was not “sinning mightily.” It had a “mighty consequence”, but there are far worse sins than that one. And of course I don’t advocate “sinning mightily”, but I do advocate not expecting that oneself or anyone else has to be perfect at every moment. We should be progressing and repenting, yes–perfect, no.

yet that is what Jesus told us to do. now obviously we aren’t capable of being perfect but we are to pursue perfection. i don’t know that there are far worse sins than Adam’s. i just don’t see the cycle of sin and repentance being “good” in the sense that you originally posited. we don’t “need” the experience of sinning.

I also think that to blame Adam or Eve for their choice in the garden of Eden and thus say to oneself, “if only this world were like the garden of Eden and I didn’t have to struggle or have pain and suffering or watch it in other people’s lives,” is not a helpful approach to life.

i don’t say that. i say that because of Adams choice he had to get cast out.i don’t think that advocating sin as a necessary experience for spiritual progress is a helpful approach to life.

I’m sorry, but I also observe that predominantly Catholic countries don’t exactly have a “paradise found” or a society making marvelous progress when compared with other societies. Maybe if those people realized that this life has a fully intended good purpose, they would work harder, help each other more, and seek inspiration without blaming Adam for not having God’s presence in their life. Maybe then their culture would develop into “paradise found” with unsurpassed progress in caring for their poor, feeding their hungry, and raising children who would see that their potential with Christ’s good shepherding help in their lives, is absolutely marvelous.

wow…didn’t expect you to go there… i could throw Utah under the bus very easily in response but i think we both know your statement here is as fallacious as it is irrelevant.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Religo71,
Your questions, “Why would we not be better off in the Garden of Eden? How can it not be better than this life?” reflect the thought process I am talking about. One who asks those kinds of questions has something in their mind that says “I would be better off if Adam and Eve had not partaken of the forbidden fruit.” On the subconscious level, the impact of that belief is what I inferred presents a challenge.

One cannot say, “I would be better off…” and then turn around and say, “this life has a fully intended good purpose planned by God and carried out by humankind.” In other words, saying subconsciously “it is wonderful for us to be here in this world just as it is so we can progress together by working together and by learning together, just as God planned that we would. We need God’s help, and He will help us just as He planned that He would. The fall of Adam and Eve is a welcome step in the progress of humankind, and here we are making further progress by making choices guided by God if we seek God’s help.”

As to baptism, think of how the logical thought process would be of someone who is thinking as they consider an unbaptized person, “they need to be rescued by baptism from the effects of the fall of Adam, or else they are going to be in my world and be making it “worse off” by their very nature.” Does that not lead to some level of suspicion, perhaps even resentment at the subconscious level?

This “blame game” says Adam and Eve didn’t love God enough or had monumental pride so here we are in this fallen world among fallen people, and God wanted all this to be different but our ancestors “blew it”. Of course that leads to subconscious resentment, and a judgmental attitude toward everyone else in the world.

Your last line is utter nonsense, and the rest of your psycho analysis is much better.

 

[ParkerD]

Your last line is utter nonsense, and the rest of your psycho analysis is much better.

Zaffiroborant,

Thanks for your post.
My reaction to the fall of Adam on every level is that I am grateful that Eve and Adam made the choice to fall. I think Eve rejoiced about it and Adam rejoiced about it, and I too rejoice about it.

My reaction on every level when I consider everyone else on this planet earth, is that they are here for a good purpose and that good purpose is being accomplished, regardless of what church they belong to or whether they don’t belong to any church.

I don’t wish anyone or everyone were perfect. Only Christ was perfect. I totally accept that as a reality.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Your last line is utter nonsense, and the rest of your psycho analysis is much better.

I meant to say isn’t much better.

 

[ParkerD]

I meant to say isn’t much better.

I had thought that statement was uncharacteristic.

Perhaps you could explain how believing Adam “blew it” helps you psychologically.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I had thought that statement was uncharacteristic.

Perhaps you could explain how believing Adam “blew it” helps you psychologically.

Perhaps you could explain how any of the psycho babble you’ve posted has any validity, that it’s not just you MSU.

 

[ParkerD]

Perhaps you could explain how any of the psycho babble you’ve posted has any validity, that it’s not just you MSU.

Never mind. You’re right that I should give up trying to get anyone to think outside of their box, even if I think it’s possible to do so. Have a good day.

 

[Religio71]

Religo71,
Your questions, “Why would we not be better off in the Garden of Eden? How can it not be better than this life?” reflect the thought process I am talking about. One who asks those kinds of questions has something in their mind that says “I would be better off if Adam and Eve had not partaken of the forbidden fruit.” On the subconscious level, the impact of that belief is what I inferred presents a challenge.

One cannot say, “I would be better off…” and then turn around and say, “this life has a fully intended good purpose planned by God and carried out by humankind.” In other words, saying subconsciously “it is wonderful for us to be here in this world just as it is so we can progress together by working together and by learning together, just as God planned that we would. We need God’s help, and He will help us just as He planned that He would. The fall of Adam and Eve is a welcome step in the progress of humankind, and here we are making further progress by making choices guided by God if we seek God’s help.”

As to baptism, think of how the logical thought process would be of someone who is thinking as they consider an unbaptized person, “they need to be rescued by baptism from the effects of the fall of Adam, or else they are going to be in my world and be making it “worse off” by their very nature.” Does that not lead to some level of suspicion, perhaps even resentment at the subconscious level?

This “blame game” says Adam and Eve didn’t love God enough or had monumental pride so here we are in this fallen world among fallen people, and God wanted all this to be different but our ancestors “blew it”. Of course that leads to subconscious resentment, and a judgmental attitude toward everyone else in the world.

I do believe that one can say that we would have been better off pre-Fall, and turn around and say that this life (in Christ) is good. The Fall caused sin to come in this world. Adam brought sin into this world. Christ brought salvation, grace, into this world. Catholics do not look at the Fall completely isolated, which is why I don’t understand your view that the Catholic take on the Fall causes people to be subconsciously dejected. In my view, the Fall also shows us that turning away from God not only affects us, but affects others. However, God has provided us a means to be reconciled with him no matter what sin it is. Yes, Adam and Eve sinned, and that turning away from God had effects on all people. However 2000 years ago, God came to Earth and “reconnected” us to God, and to Heaven. Instead of being judgmental towards “everyone else in the world”, we want everyone to come to Christ with his free gift of salvation.

 

[Religio71]

and it is hard to “rejoice” with Adam and Eve when their sin brought sin into this world, and made us sinners. We do rejoice in Christ for saving us.

Romans 5:19-
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Arandur]

I’m sorry, but I also observe that predominantly Catholic countries don’t exactly have a “paradise found” or a society making marvelous progress when compared with other societies. Maybe if those people realized that this life has a fully intended good purpose, they would work harder, help each other more, and seek inspiration without blaming Adam for not having God’s presence in their life. Maybe then their culture would develop into “paradise found” with unsurpassed progress in caring for their poor, feeding their hungry, and raising children who would see that their potential with Christ’s good shepherding help in their lives, is absolutely marvelous.

I suggest you get some additional perspective when you’re trying to draw conclusions from such comparisons. Take a look at history, for instance. Western civilization, natural freedom (Adam Smith’s term for free market capitalism), Republican liberty (as this country is founded on, and so many others try to emulate), science, and the institutionalized ideas of social self-criticism and progress all grew out of the Catholic West. The Catholic Church also brought the Gospel to all ends of the earth, and endured intact and unchanged at its central united core for longer than any other institution in history. I’d say all that is quite an achievement, far beyond that which can be attributed to any other society or religion.

Is Utah a paradise meeting your criteria?

now would be a good time to read Pope Benedict’s In the Beginning: A Catholic Understanding of Creation and the Fall. Adding that to the list

Seems we need to add to the reading list Thomas Woods’ How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization.

As to Catholic charity, I wasn’t talking about the church as an institution. I was talking about when you visit a country that is predominantly Catholic, their motivation should be so high (except for this constraint of having a little bit of misgiving about the impact of Adam’s sin on their progress and happiness) that the church wouldn’t have to offer institutional help, because the people would already be helping each other and already be so readily inspired and working effectively together that there would be no children going hungry at all, or virtually none.

Catholic charity is inseparable from the actions of the members. You seem to be suggesting that the members should operate outside the Church to bring about their primary good. Why do you try to separate what’s inseparable?

 

[ParkerD]

and it is hard to “rejoice” with Adam and Eve when their sin brought sin into this world, and made us sinners. We do rejoice in Christ for saving us.

Romans 5:19-
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Religio71,
I simply disagree that their sin “made us sinners.”

But I do appreciate your expression of faith in Christ and the non-judgmental approach you have shown. Thanks.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Never mind. You’re right that I should give up trying to get anyone to think outside of their box, even if I think it’s possible to do so. Have a good day.

Parker, you have been telling us what we believe, erroneously, and in the worse possible light you could conjure. And now you tell us those conjured beliefs are “inside a box”. :ehh:

Maybe if you stopped trying to make our religion for us, the discussion would be more meaningful.

 

[ParkerD]

Arandur,
I have no time to reply right now. I think you brought up some very good points. Thanks for bringing them up. I’ll respond later. Have a good day.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

ParkerD:
I hope today finds you well. Let me make another attempt here to explain how I see the fall as a Catholic. I can not say this is how all Catholic or the church would see it but from my perspective This is what one one get.

I don’t know if you are married, but for arguments sake lets say you are. Your wife is running a scam stealing lots of money from innocent people and you know nothing of it. You find out what is going on. Do you join her in this or do you lead her back to the right side of the law even if that means she goes to prison and you are left at home alone? Which way do you truly believe God would have you do? The Chance are if you lead her away from her what she is doing that her punishment will be lessened. but if you join her you both go down when caught.

God Bless

 

[Arandur]

Religo71,
Your questions, “Why would we not be better off in the Garden of Eden? How can it not be better than this life?” reflect the thought process I am talking about. One who asks those kinds of questions has something in their mind that says “I would be better off if Adam and Eve had not partaken of the forbidden fruit.” On the subconscious level, the impact of that belief is what I inferred presents a challenge.

We know there were consequences to the Fall–concupiscence (the tendency to do evil rather than good), death, physical suffering. All that statement of Religio’s is is a recognition of the reality of what happened, and that had these evils not entered the world, we would not have had to suffer them. To deny that is to deny that those evils happened or that they are evil.

One cannot say, “I would be better off…” and then turn around and say, “this life has a fully intended good purpose planned by God and carried out by humankind.” In other words, saying subconsciously “it is wonderful for us to be here in this world just as it is so we can progress together by working together and by learning together, just as God planned that we would. We need God’s help, and He will help us just as He planned that He would. The fall of Adam and Eve is a welcome step in the progress of humankind, and here we are making further progress by making choices guided by God if we seek God’s help.”

Wrong. One can recognize the consequences of their own sin and wish they had not committed it, even if they learned from it. Sin wounds the soul; why would one wish for the wounding? That’s the perverse situation I see your theology putting you in.

Rather, in Catholic belief, we wish we never sinned or never would sin, recognizing the harm that comes from sin. Do you not think God could provide a way if there were no sin? You seem to suggest that if we had not sinned, God could not work Good. What nonsense. God worked good in spite of our sin. We can lament the sin and its effects, but be infinitely grateful for God’s Grace in covering over that sin and providing us a Way out.

As to baptism, think of how the logical thought process would be of someone who is thinking as they consider an unbaptized person, “they need to be rescued by baptism from the effects of the fall of Adam, or else they are going to be in my world and be making it “worse off” by their very nature.” Does that not lead to some level of suspicion, perhaps even resentment at the subconscious level?

Logical? Hardly. Baptism doesn’t rescue us out of the Fallen State, and so our “nature” in that respect is not different from those who aren’t baptized. You made a conclusion based on a false premise, so it is not logical. Instead, we want everyone to be Baptized all the more so that they can be washed of Original Sin and united with Christ, given the grace of Baptism to help them in their journey. The only way there is resentment there is if you also have resentment as an LDS for everyone who is not LDS, not benefitting from what you believe are the graces and supports of belonging to your church.

This “blame game” says Adam and Eve didn’t love God enough or had monumental pride so here we are in this fallen world among fallen people, and God wanted all this to be different but our ancestors “blew it”. Of course that leads to subconscious resentment, and a judgmental attitude toward everyone else in the world.

What you have described is so alien to Catholic thought that I don’t even know where to begin and how to comprehend it. I don’t know anyone who thinks even similarly. You just have very little understanding of Catholics and the Church.

 

[Arandur]

Religio71,
I simply disagree that their sin “made us sinners.”

But I do appreciate your expression of faith in Christ and the non-judgmental approach you have shown. Thanks.

You disagree with Paul in Scripture?

 

[Religio71]

Religio71,
I simply disagree that their sin “made us sinners.”

But I do appreciate your expression of faith in Christ and the non-judgmental approach you have shown. Thanks.

Parker, how do you interpret 5:19 if it is not saying that the sins of Adam made us all sinners, and we are saved by Christ?

In the end, both churches believe in the saving grace of Jesus Christ, and that it is only in him that we gain salvation.

 

[Arandur]

yet that is what Jesus told us to do. now obviously we aren’t capable of being perfect but we are to pursue perfection. i don’t know that there are far worse sins than Adam’s. i just don’t see the cycle of sin and repentance being “good” in the sense that you originally posited. we don’t “need” the experience of sinning.
i don’t say that. i say that because of Adams choice he had to get cast out.i don’t think that advocating sin as a necessary experience for spiritual progress is a helpful approach to life.

Thanks, Majick. This is exactly what is so wrong with the BoM/Parker approach. It teaches that sin is necessary for spiritual progress, despite the rest of Scripture telling us that sin only harms the spirit and impedes spiritual progress. I can hardly think of a more pernicious teaching.

Thanks for your post.
My reaction to the fall of Adam on every level is that I am grateful that Eve and Adam made the choice to fall. I think Eve rejoiced about it and Adam rejoiced about it, and I too rejoice about it.

My reaction on every level when I consider everyone else on this planet earth, is that they are here for a good purpose and that good purpose is being accomplished, regardless of what church they belong to or whether they don’t belong to any church.

I don’t wish anyone or everyone were perfect. Only Christ was perfect. I totally accept that as a reality.

And this is illustrative of the point. Being grateful for sin is certainly not what the Scriptures are aiming for. Not wanting people to be perfectly Good, as Christ commands, is also certainly against the Scriptures. Now we all know that all of us will fall short, but if we don’t reach for that goal, if we don’t sincerely want each and every one of our brothers and sisters to attain perfection, then we are hoping for their failure and sin and death!

Perhaps you could explain how believing Adam “blew it” helps you psychologically.

As someone else just said, it tells us that sin/disobedience to God causes great harm, not just to us, but to others as well. It teaches us that sin brings death (the wages of sin are death). That’s pretty darn helpful. It teaches us that to live a virtuous life we must avoid all sin as best we can.

To believe as you seem to that Adam didn’t blow it but did a good thing is to believe that sin can be okay. I can’t think of much that is LESS helpful to living a virtuous life than believing that some sin can be good for the soul’s development or be part of God’s plan.