Question about Iglesia Ni Cristo [Church of Christ]

[Jonathan_Cid]

ETE, this’ll be my last post. Try giving line by line answers to what we Catholics are saying. If you cannot, and it very much seems that way, then your logic is faulty.

 

[ETE]

The problem with your argument is those “second” century christian leaders were taught directly by the apostles themselves, therefore any evidence from them is vaild as to what the early church taught.

Do you know how many Christians were taught by Apostle Paul in the gentile lands? Many right?

But how come none of them release a doctrine that JESUS IS GOD?..not even their mentor, Apostle Paul? Except Ignatius of Antioch, a believer of GOD BECAME MAN and have sex with man and produced super humans like Hercules? A believer of gods and goddesses, a gentile converted to Christianity?

And history affirmed such did happen after the NT writers?

“The earliest post-New Testament writers, known as the Apostolic Fathers, continued the development that had emerged in the later New Testament period of calling Jesus God. Ignatius of Antioch, writing in the second century to the Ephesians, declares, ‘Jesus Christ our God was conceived of Mary’ (Eph 18:2) and, ‘God was now appearing in human form’ (Eph 19:3).”(Word Become Flesh, pp. 161-162)

And that doesn’t make any sense and sent great confusion in the NT writings that proclaimed the Monotheistic God…

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet there is for us only one God, the Father, who is the Creator of all things and for whom we live

That is what you need to explain, or else…there is a deep dark clouds hoovering in your doctrines.

 

[ETE]

The problem with your argument is those “second” century christian leaders were taught directly by the apostles themselves, therefore any evidence from them is vaild as to what the early church taught.

The Biblical Basis of the
Doctrine of the Trinity:
An Outline Study
spotlightministries.org.uk/bowmanonthetrinity.htm

St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies (C. 180 A.D.):

“The successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, that Church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the Apostles. For with this the whole world; and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition…”

The Martyrdom of St. Polycarp (C. 155 - 157 A.D.):

“…In this way and for all things I do praise you, I do bless you, I do glorify you through the eternal and heavenly High Priest Jesus Christ, your beloved child: through whom be glory to you with Him and with the Holy Spirit, both now and through ages yet to come. Amen.”

St. Theophilus of Antioch, To Autolycus (181 A.D.):

"The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, His Word, and His Wisdom."
St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies (C. 180 A.D.):

“If any one, therefore says to us, ‘How then was the Son produced by the Father?’ we reply to him, that no man understands that production, or generation, or calling, or revelation, or by whatever name one may describe His generation, which is in fact altogether indescribable. Neither Valentinus, nor Marcion, nor Saturninus, nor Basilides, nor angels, not archangels, nor principalities, nor powers (possess this knowledge), but the Father only who begat, and the Son who was begotten. Since therefore His generation is unspeakable, those who strive to set forth generations and productions cannot be in their right mind, inasmuch as they undertake to describe things that are indescribable.”

St. Ambrose of Milan, Hexameron (Post 389 A.D.):

“But let us consider the course of our own creation. He says: ‘Let Us make man to our image and to our likeness.’ Who says this? Is it not God, who made you?..To whom does He say it? Certainly not to Himself, for He does not say ‘Let Me make’ but ‘Let Us make.’ Nor to the Angels, for they are ministers; and servants can have no partnership in the operation of the master, nor works with their author. It is the Son to whom He speaks, even if the Jews will not have it and the Arians fight against it…[And it is the Son] who is the image of God the Father, the Son who always is and who was in the beginning.”

St. Augustine of Hippo (+430 A.D.), De Trinitate, Bk. 7, Ch. 4:

“For that which must be understood of persons according to our usage, this is to be understood of substances according to the Greek usage; for they say three substances, one essence, in the same way as we say three persons, one essence or substance.”

St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Romans (C. 110 A.D.):

“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church that has found mercy in the greatness of the Most High Father and in Jesus Christ, His only Son: to the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of Him that has willed everything which is: to the Church also which holds the presidency in the place of the country of the Romans…To those who are united in flesh and in spirit by every commandment of His, who are filled with the grace of God without wavering, and who are filtered clear of every foreign stain,** I wish an alloyed joy in Jesus Christ, our God.**”

Tatian the Syrian, Address to the Greeks (C. 165 - 175 A.D.):

“We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man.”

St. Melito of Sardes, Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai (C. 177 A.D.):

“The activities of Christ after His Baptism, and especially His miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the **Deity hidden in His flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, **He gave positive indications of His two natures: of His Deity, by the miracles during the three years following after His Baptism; of His humanity, in the thirty years which came before His Baptism, during which, by reason of His condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of His Deity, although He was the true God existing before the ages.”

See the date of JESUS DEITY’s proclamation, it started in 110AD by Ignatous, or early second century…when was the last Apostles except John who was in exile died? 70AD…and the expansion time was 40 years, when Jesus deity doctrine emerged…who were those people?

The gentiles who believes GOD BECAME MAN even before conversion to Christianity. The Church became a Polytheistic gods worshipers…no wonder why it is but a piece of cake to turn the table around like that.

But the scriptures knows that it will happen. But the question is, was Apostle Paul aware that someone will introduce “ANOTHER JESUS” of course he knew…

2 Cor 11:4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or [if] you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted – you may well put up with it!

2 Peter 2:1 False prophets appeared in the past among the people, and in the same way false teachers will appear among you. They will bring in destructive, untrue doctrines, and will deny the Master who redeemed them, and so they will bring upon themselves sudden destruction.

How can we prove that it did happen? COMPARISON by the latter status of the Church to the primitive if it has the same replica, if it does not, then APOSTASY did happen…no matter what you say.

 

[ETE]

ETE, this’ll be my last post. Try giving line by line answers to what we Catholics are saying. If you cannot, and it very much seems that way, then your logic is faulty.

I am done with John 20:28, I’ll proceed with the other verses.

 

[BMCD]

The confusion is from the history of the Restoration movement. Among the leaders was Barton Stone, he was an Arian in christology and as such denied the deity of Christ. The Restoration Movement along with other movements like the Adventist movement were heavily influnce by a sect called the Christian Connextion Movement which were basically a group of boston unitarians who came out of the congregationists. So, don’t be suprised that there is a wide range of beliefs among the off shouts of the so-called Restoration movement. BTW, the modern Bible Alone viewpoint was inherited from this same Christian Connection movement too.

So, today you can have too groups calling themselves “church of christ” one Trinitarian and the other denying the deity of Christ.

Do you really think I do not know that other religious groups came out of the restoration movement? I went to a Church of Christ high school and University where I took whole courses on the subject. The point of my original post was to show that the Church of Christ that one encounters in the United States is not the Iglesia ni Cristo. Someone was asking if we were the same group and I answered the question.

Oh and I know you can have two groups that call themselves anything. The first Vatican Council was met with hostility from some Catholics and a group split off that said the papacy is no longer valid. So today you can have two groups calling themselves Catholic, one who says the pope is a heretic and another who upholds the legitimacy of the Pope.

 

[BMCD]

Just to clarify, I am not a Church of Christ apologist and I am seriously thinking of leaving it for the Catholic Church. I just simply wanted to clear up any misconception about the Church of Christ that one encounters in the United States having anything to do with the Iglesia ni Cristo.

 

[Jonathan_Cid]

Oh and I know you can have two groups that call themselves anything. The first Vatican Council was met with hostility from some Catholics and a group split off that said the papacy is no longer valid. So today you can have two groups calling themselves Catholic, one who says the pope is a heretic and another who upholds the legitimacy of the Pope.

I think I have to clarify something here. I think you are thinking of sedevacantist traditionalists whose issues did not come with the First Vatican Council, but the Second Vatican Council. There are the traditionalists who maintain the legitimacy of the Papacy but fight off Modernism in the Church, and the traditionalists who deny the very legitimacy of the papacy and say the “chair is vacant” - sede vacante. The ones whose relations with Rome were severed once and for all with the First Vatican Council were the Old Catholics, and we don’t deny the legitimacy of the Papacy - we maintain that infallibility of the Pope was not truly Catholic dogma, and recognize the Holy Father as primus inter pares, “first among equals.”

I don’t want to debate this here, to hi-jack the thread, just thought I should clarify what BCMD said.

 

[ETE]

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.” – John 1:1

And the Word dwelt among us.

Which part of those verses where we can read JESUS IS GOD?

 

[BMCD]

Thanks for clarifying Jonathan Cid. Sorry if I was guilty of strewing misconceptions.

I was just trying to make the point that the Church of Christ is not the only group that has multiple groups using the same name. Since this is a Catholic board I decided to use the example I did.

 

[ferdie]

Who started it? a gentile convert in Christianity name Ignatius, a bishop of Antioch, whose former beliefs was God can became man…the gods and godesses of the Greeks.

I’m just trying to picture this. There were 11 apostles who were instructed to spread the good news to the ends of the earth. I’m pretty sure they couldn’t accomplished that instruction by just the 11 of them. They had to teach others to become elders like them. They founded churches and elected leaders to teach the gospel, and then moved on and founded more churches and elected more leaders.

Now, St. Ignatius who was martyred because of the faith, was just one of the disciples of John the Apostle.** I just find it hard to believe that the other elders of the churches founded by the apostles did not write a contradiction to the “new doctrine” that St. Ignatius was introducing at that time. There must be hundreds of elders by the time St. Ignatius wrote his epistles. Not one wrote a contradiction to this “NEW DOCTRINE”.**

And if the apostles were teaching that Jesus was just a prophet,
how come Arius had to reintroduce that idea? What happened to the bishops, elders, priests, and deacons of the last two hundred years?

 

[Jonathan_Cid]

Thanks for clarifying Jonathan Cid. Sorry if I was guilty of strewing misconceptions.

I was just trying to make the point that the Church of Christ is not the only group that has multiple groups using the same name. Since this is a Catholic board I decided to use the example I did.

Not a problem! I didn’t think you were doing anything intentionally.

 

[ETE]

I’m just trying to picture this. There were 11 apostles who were instructed to spread the good news to the ends of the earth. I’m pretty sure they couldn’t accomplished that instruction by just the 11 of them. They had to teach others to become elders like them. They founded churches and elected leaders to teach the gospel, and then moved on and founded more churches and elected more leaders.

Now, St. Ignatius who was martyred because of the faith, was just one of the disciples of John the Apostle.** I just find it hard to believe that the other elders of the churches founded by the apostles did not write a contradiction to the “new doctrine” that St. Ignatius was introducing at that time. There must be hundreds of elders by the time St. Ignatius wrote his epistles. Not one wrote a contradiction to this “NEW DOCTRINE”.**

And if the apostles were teaching that Jesus was just a prophet,
how come Arius had to reintroduce that idea? What happened to the bishops, elders, priests, and deacons of the last two hundred years?

I like the way you handle the situation, you have an open minded approach.

It 's true that many elders, workers and teachers appeared in the midst of the Church, in fact even when the Apostles are still alive, they have this nervous feeling about those teachers which they cannot oversee due to distance of location…and here what Apostke Paul forewarned…

Acts 20:29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

Likewise Apostle Peter has the same feelings…

2 Peter 2:1 False prophets appeared in the past among the people,** and in the same way false teachers will appear among you. They will bring in destructive, untrue doctrines**, and will deny the Master who redeemed them, and so they will bring upon themselves sudden destruction.

If we will study both letters, it tells us that the workers of darkness is already in the picture, “and in the same way false teachers will appear among you.”…*
“savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock”* and only time will tell when it will blows up in great proportion, the coming of the wicked one which Apostle Paul prophesied…

2 Thess 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for [that Day will not come] unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 ** For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work;** only He who now restrains [will do so] until He is taken out of the way. .

What Apostle Paul was trying to say is, the Day of the coming of the Lord will not happen not until the APOSTASY or the falling away from the faith will come first, meaning: The Church will succumbed to the savage wolves and false teachers which lead the falling away from the faith of the members of Church built by Christ…and while he is still alive, he already knew that they are preparing the ground for the coming of the son of perdition…and Apostle is on the way or blocking the way for the work of lawlessness to go though* “For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains [will do so] until He is taken out of the way”*

That’s why based on history, different gospel starts to appear in the Church, one of them is JESUS DEITY which was dated 110AD, and all the NT writers were all dead long long time ago.

As time goes by, more and more un-biblical doctrine crept in the Church. There are many things that happened in the Church before and after the time of Ignatius, but the dominance of the gentiles converts to the Church was the big factor why the pagan doctrines penetrated the Church of Christ…notably, when the Church of Christ became the Empire declared religion by Emperor Constantine, it blows like a nuclear bomb in doctrine and practices that never heard by the first century Christians.

And these are all documemted in history.

 

[ETE]

And if the apostles were teaching that Jesus was just a prophet,
how come Arius had to reintroduce that idea? What happened to the bishops, elders, priests, and deacons of the last two hundred years?

I have not tackle this one Ferdie.

The elders and bishops and Ministers of 200 years bought the notion that JESUS IS GOD, and it is not hard for them to believe GOD BECAME MAN cause that is their beliefs before conversion to Christianity.

Mind you, these are gentiles that believe gods would come down here on earth and have sex with humans and produces superhuman like Hercules…until the time, Arius, a Catholic presbyter comes out and defended the scriptures.

Which by the way, more bishops came out of the closet and sided with him…Why? Because it is logically correct that JESUS IS NOT GOD if the scriptures is concern…and they have all the letters of the early Apostolic Fathers for comparison with the scriptural letters on where does the beliefs that Jesus is God came from.

Well, Constantine intervene and the case were closed, JESUS DEITY wins after two grueling years of stalemate debate of the Church bishops.

“The Council could not agree and after two years, impatient at the delay, the Emperor Constantine appeared and addressed the assembly, ordering them to agree on the divinity of Christ…”(Challenge of a Liberal Faith, p. 60)

 

[ferdie]

I like the way you handle the situation, you have an open minded approach.

It 's true that many elders, workers and teachers appeared in the midst of the Church, in fact even when the Apostles are still alive, they have this nervous feeling about those teachers which they cannot oversee due to distance of location…and here what Apostke Paul forewarned…

 

[ralphinal]

Paul said that all Scripture is inspired by God. Scripture cannot contain errors in faith and theology. John’s Gospel opens with the Word was with God, the Word WAS God and the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us. Therefore, either Jesus is God or the Bible is full of ****. That is harsh but it is the only possible answer. I am sorry that you are blind to the truth and stuck in such a false state. I will pray for you.

 

[ferdie]

I have not tackle this one Ferdie.

The elders and bishops and Ministers of 200 years bought the notion that JESUS IS GOD, and it is not hard for them to believe GOD BECAME MAN cause that is their beliefs before conversion to Christianity.

 

[Jonathan_Cid]

Paul said that all Scripture is inspired by God. Scripture cannot contain errors in faith and theology. John’s Gospel opens with the Word was with God, the Word WAS God and the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us. Therefore, either Jesus is God or the Bible is full of ****. That is harsh but it is the only possible answer. I am sorry that you are blind to the truth and stuck in such a false state. I will pray for you.

Those have been the most refreshing words in this whole thread. Short, sweet, and to the point.

But alas, I foresee ETE telling us the Filipino people have the only true translation of the Bible, the only one where they will scratch out that God Himself dwelt among us. The New Philipine Igliesia Ni Cristo Final True Almighty Accurate New Revised Edition of the Bible - with the imprimatur of the Iglesia Ni Cristo.

I searched for the “Iglesia Ni Cristo” online to find that military officials have reason to believe these nice people have 1,000 to 2,000 high-caliber firearms in their armory.

From Wikipedia.org with sources there cited:

Military intelligence sources say that the Iglesia has 1,000 to 2,000 high-caliber firearms in its armory, apart from guns owned by individual members who include soldiers and policemen.[23]

In September 1972, INC members shot at and killed three Marine soldiers who were part of a contingent sent by Marcos to shut down the church’s DZEC radio tower.[23]

On March 8, 1992, around twelve members of the Iglesia ni Cristo were angered about losing an altercation during a basketball game against some college students from the nearby Polytechnic University of the Philippines. They physically assaulted the other team which fueled the conflict. A brawl took place afterwards where two of the INC members were badly mauled. In revenge, the INC members, with the help of a local policeman who was also member of the INC, kidnapped eight students but later released the three after threatening them not to tell anyone. The remaining five students were immediately brought inside the chapel of Iglesia ni Cristo in Sta. Mesa, Manila where they were tortured to the point of death. According to court documents, the victims were mauled, tortured and beaten by their captors, who were deacons of the INC, as well as by their cohorts, using steel tubes, lead pipes, guns and other blunt instruments, inside the basement of the church. A witness saw one of the perpetrators bringing a blow torch inside the basement where the victims were kept while hearing cries for mercy. Three days later, or on 10 March 1992, the victims’ decomposing bodies were found floating on the Pasig River. Postmortem examinations on the cadavers showed that one of the victims sustained lacerated wounds, contusions, ligature marks and hematoma and died from a gunshot wound on the head. Another victim had his genitals cut off. Most of the victims’ death were caused by "asphyxia by strangulation; hemorrhage, intracranial, traumatic with skull fracture” and/or “asphyxia by drowning”, indicating that some of the victims were still alive when they were thrown into the river. Although eye witnesses told police that around a dozen members of the INC participated in the kidnapping of the victims, only four of them, including the policeman, were arrested and eventually convicted for the murders. The four were given life sentences. [51]

In October 2007, members of the Iglesia ni Cristo in Tondo, Manila assaulted three preachers of the Pentecostal Missionary Church of Christ (PMCC) after a religious debate. [52]

“You will know them by their works.”

I need to know no more about the “Iglesia Ni Cristo”. ETE, I pray for you conversion and that you leave that terrible cult, those maniacs, who are worthy of vehement opposition by all Catholics. You are in my prayers and sacrifices.

Into the Maw of the Cult (Catholic Answers article about a trip to INC): catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9002fea1.asp

 

[PaulDupre]

This is the really chilling part:

According to court documents, the victims were mauled, tortured and beaten by their captors, who were deacons of the INC

8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

• 1 Tim 3:8-13

 

[ETE]

The elders did not just appeared, they were elected, appointed like Timothy was appointed by Paul. The apostlkes laid their hands to the new elders so that they will receive the Holy Spirit. The Apostles sent them just like they were sent by our Lord Jesus, just like our Lord Jesus was sent by the Father. Those who were sent and then later became heretics were rejected by the church.

I knew that, but the point is, it is no longer the people the so called “heretics” by the RCC is the concern, instead the teachings…maybe those who was condemned heretics are fighting for the truths…who knows?

But his history told us, changes happened as time goes by until apostasy based on the prophesy did happen.

Scriptures told us of an apostasy,** but not the total apostasy of the church**, otherwise we’ll make a liar out of our Lord. Its is true that more unorthodox doctrine were introduced by the heretics, but the church countered them us they popped up. That is why we had the names like, St. Ignatius, St Irenaeus. St. and St Polycarp, of the 1st and 2nd centuries that defended the church from these corruptions

If is is true that total apostasy did not happen, then it 's also true that Jesus and his Apostles were IDOL/IMAGE WORSHIPERS…to match the present status of worship offered by the latter Church.

If not, then apostasy did happen due to the present doctrinal practices of the Church built by Christ that was transformed by Ignatius into Catholic organization.

But the bible forewarned that false teachers will bring UNTRUE and DESTRUCTIVE DOCTRINE and they did and you’re practicing it…the evidence speak for itself is it not?

2 Peter 2:1 False prophets appeared in the past among the people, and in the same way false teachers will appear among you. They will bring in destructive, untrue doctrines, and will deny the Master who redeemed them, and so they will bring upon themselves sudden destruction.

 

[ETE]

Those have been the most refreshing words in this whole thread. Short, sweet, and to the point.

But alas, I foresee ETE telling us the Filipino people have the only true translation of the Bible, the only one where they will scratch out that God Himself dwelt among us. The New Philipine Igliesia Ni Cristo Final True Almighty Accurate New Revised Edition of the Bible - with the imprimatur of the Iglesia Ni Cristo.

We don’t revised the scriptures, we simply inform the people what God wants for the people to follow to be saved, well, based on the scriptures that you canonized of course.

So if you want to prove something used the scriptures and not speculations.

I searched for the “Iglesia Ni Cristo” online to find that military officials have reason to believe these nice people have 1,000 to 2,000 high-caliber firearms in their armory.

Speculation are not facts.

From Wikipedia.org with sources there cited:

“You will know them by their works.”

I need to know no more about the “Iglesia Ni Cristo”. ETE, I pray for you conversion and that you leave that terrible cult, those maniacs, who are worthy of vehement opposition by all Catholics. You are in my prayers and sacrifices.

Into the Maw of the Cult (Catholic Answers article about a trip to INC): catholic.com/thisrock/1990/9002fea1.asp

The works does not based on personal works done by anyone, if it does, then the Church Jesus built is not the true church cause Judas, Ananias and saphira and many members of the church did evil too in the first century…well…if I am going to use your yard stick in determining the church authenticity.

But prove your doctrine if it is of God, if not then whose?