Question about Iglesia Ni Cristo [Church of Christ]

[ETE]

Paul said that all Scripture is inspired by God. Scripture cannot contain errors in faith and theology.

The original writings of the scriptures contain no errors, how about the copies and translations? How can we be sure it is correct?

John’s Gospel opens with the Word was with God, the Word WAS God and the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us. Therefore, either Jesus is God or the Bible is full of ****. That is harsh but it is the only possible answer. I am sorry that you are blind to the truth and stuck in such a false state. I will pray for you.

The verse never said JESUS IS GOD, instead the Word was God.

And never it say Jesus became flesh either, instead the Word became flesh…therefore, presumption takes over without referring with the rest of the scriptures for validity if what was speculated agrees with what was written in its entirety…the subjects did not even bother to check and clarifies if there are contradictions…right?..Just simply agrees.

 

[ralphinal]

The original writings of the scriptures contain no errors, how about the copies and translations? How can we be sure it is correct?

There are two ways that we can be sure that do not involve God protecting them. First, we can check against older documents, some of them fragments, and we can see no changes. Yes, there can be neuances and word choice issues, but the actual writings are the same. Second is an understanding of those who copied the texts for centuries. They did not change anything. They would not under penalty of mortal sin. Besides, if you study how they did it, it was very similar to the bardic meathod of memorizing long poems. From teacher to student, there is less than a 1% change in the story, and it is corrected before the bard can perform. It is really very interesting.

The verse never said JESUS IS GOD, instead the Word was God.

And never it say Jesus became flesh either, instead the Word became flesh…therefore, presumption takes over without referring with the rest of the scriptures for validity if what was speculated agrees with what was written in its entirety…the subjects did not even bother to check and clarifies if there are contradictions…right?..Just simply agrees.

Please read it again. I’ll put it here for you to make it easier.

In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. He existed in the beginning with God. Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life brought light to humanity. And the light shines on in the darkness, and the darkness has never put it out. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify about the light, so that all might believe because of him. John was not the light, but he came to testify about the light. This was the true light that enlightens every person by his coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him. Yet the world did not recognize him. He came to his own creation, yet his own people did not receive him. However, to all who received him, those believing in his name, he gave authority to become God’s children, who were born, not merely in a genetic sense, nor from lust, nor from man’s desire, but from the will of God. The Word became flesh and lived among us. We gazed on his glory, the kind of glory that belongs to the Father’s unique Son, who is full of grace and truth. John told the truth about him when he cried out, “This is the person about whom I said, ‘The one who comes after me ranks higher than me, because he existed before me.’”

Now, can you not see that the Word of God, who was with God, and who WAS God is Jesus? The Word made Flesh that was not recognized by the world? He who John spoke of? He who was before John and came after?

I am generally charitable in this forum, ask around, but you are a member of a cult that accepts some played out heresy as fact. I am sorry that you choose to defy John’s Gosple, which could not be any clearer.

Oh, before you say that it could be corrupt, please tell me why you are not Muslim.

 

[rikkk1958]

I think ETE and the INC are confused about Jesus the Son and in human flesh whom they do not literally would not compare Him to God. Of Course not because as the Son Jesus is equal to the Father in divinity while in human flesh He is not. When Jesus spoke about being One with the Father, He is speaking with the Holy Spirit in Him that equates Him with Father while as human Jesus suffers in the form of a created being equal to the humans. Arianism is dead and the fathers concluded that. I think what motivated Manalo to build his own church is obviously the same goals of all other sects that are now numerous. They are very successful just like others because for them freedom has to be suppressed where the result is a harmonious and better organization. Is this the way to find truth? EKE, your wisdom is amazing and it is a waste for you to defend a wrong argument. If you become a true christian, I am sure you will have more complete and sufficient ammo against people who may want to be like you.

 

[ETE]

That is their belief because that is what the Apostles thought them. I was being indoctrinated in the INC around 1984 when I heard this " New Doctrine of Jesus is God". Thank God for giving me the grace to study the** real** history of the church on my own without the influence of the fundamentalist and the INC. By the way St. Ignatius was battling the heretics of his time who do not believe the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ. And for you this is yet another “new doctrine” concocted by a martyr of the faith, St. Ignatius, who also by the way was exhorting Christians whom he met with on his way to Rome where he was put to death to guard themselves against the heresies that were arising, and to cling with tenacity to the tradition of the apostles.

You cannot read from the gospel nor from the letters of the Apostles that they taught JESUS IS GOD to the first century Christians , it is a presumptuous notion in the part of the JESUS DEITY believers. And when you said: "Thank God for giving me the grace to study the* real** history of the church on my own without the influence of the fundamentalist and the INC."* then perhaps you only gathered sort of informations based on what you want to perceived and not what the real score based on history which is a dangerous moved.

Arius defended the Scriptures? Ahh, another false indoctrination of the INC. Arius was disciplined by his Bishop.

Yes, Arius was disciplined by his bishops for opening the old case , the cover up that was going on for two centuries. But this is a mind boggling question, why would a debate on Jesus deity took so long to resolve? two years of arguments and presenting of facts by the bishops against a presbyter [Arius] if Jesus is really God based on the gospel and the writings of the Apostle? That doesn’t make any sense, something is fishy and a cover up did happen.

Even you people who canonized the bible cannot prove that the Apostles preached JESUS IS GOD…why? In the same manner with the bishops of 325 AD Nicean Council, they themselves were confused and cannot find any understanding within the gospel nor in the entire scriptures to support the belief in Jesus diety…that’s why it tooks them two years, and IF the Pagan Emperor did not intervene and decides on their behalf that Jesus is God…then what would be your doctrine today?

“The Council could not agree and after two years, impatient at the delay, the Emperor Constantine appeared and addressed the assembly, ordering them to agree on the divinity of Christ…”(Challenge of a Liberal Faith, p. 60)

Well logically if the scripture is concern, we can only conclude, especially if you add the Tradition of the Apostles that Jesus is God!

Again and again, history is against your notion. History tells us that JESUS DEITY’s crept in the church ONLY in 110AD through the instrumentality of bishop Ignatius, after the NT scriptures. That is a factual evidence that is hard to ignore.

Do you know Cerithus and Ebion? Well these heretics were attacking the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, so the clergy and the faithful of Asia Minor asked St John for help. So St. John wrote his gospel.

If “divinity” for the Catholics means JESUS IS GOD then the Heretics are but correct to attack it cause it existed outside the perimeter of the scriptures. But John never wrote JESUS IS GOD, Divine perhaps…but NOT GOD.

Only with an open hearth can you accept the grace of God to overcome the false indoctrination of the INC.

Comments with no hard evidence will not stand, but biblical proofs and historical evidence will make your doctrines solid and unbeatable which is not present sorry to say.

 

[ralphinal]

John 1
The Deity of Jesus Christ
1(A)In the beginning was (B)the Word, and the Word was (C)with God, and (D)the Word was God.

You can substitute Jesus for Word. John, who was the at the Cross, who rested his head on Jesus’s breast at the Last Supper, who raced Peter to the Tomb, is saying that Jesus IS God. You can see that when he says that the “Word became Flesh and dwelt among us.” The Word (Jesus) was God. That is clear and easy enough to see.

 

[ETE]

There are two ways that we can be sure that do not involve God protecting them. First, we can check against older documents, some of them fragments, and we can see no changes. Yes, there can be neuances and word choice issues, but the actual writings are the same.

So “older documents” means copies from copies right? And the copier are but Jesus diety’s believers which is a very dangerous combination on how to transfer a letter of the Apostles to another language nor copy the original to preserve it.

Second is an understanding of those who copied the texts for centuries. They did not change anything. They would not under penalty of mortal sin.

Those who copied the originals or copies from copies are NOT Jews, but pagan gentiles who believes in many gods and goddesses then converted to Christianity. Meaning: Injecting their own old doctrinal philosophy to the copies is not impossible to happen.

Besides, if you study how they did it, it was very similar to the bardic meathod of memorizing long poems. From teacher to student, there is less than a 1% change in the story, and it is corrected before the bard can perform. It is really very interesting.

I agree, how about if what they have received and memorized was already corrupted? 325AD Nicean Council debates and arguments regarding Jesus diety for TWO LONG years is but a good example of what was memorized against what is written is it not? Or else why it took them so long to beat a layman presbyter who declared JESUS IS NOT GOD from Alexandria [Arius]? That doesn’t make any sense for a Christian doctrine presumed existing, since day 30AD right?

Please read it again. I’ll put it here for you to make it easier.

I read that chapter for so many times, but where is the doctrine that says, JESUS IS GOD? Where? That is what I want you to prove.

Now, can you not see that the Word of God, who was with God, and who WAS God is Jesus? The Word made Flesh that was not recognized by the world? He who John spoke of? He who was before John and came after?

Please pay attention to what you have said but cannot perceive… “can you not see that the Word of God”

The WORD is NOT Jesus, you also believed that the “WORD” in John 1:1 was the WORD OF GOD is it not? Therefore whatever is with God and became flesh is God’s WORD and NOT Jesus, instead Jesus is the manifestation of God’s word…right?

I am generally charitable in this forum, ask around, but you are a member of a cult that accepts some played out heresy as fact. I am sorry that you choose to defy John’s Gosple, which could not be any clearer.

Talk to me with an open mind the you will understand that John never wrote Jesus is God never, or else he will contradict the other writers of the 66 books of the scriptures.

Oh, before you say that it could be corrupt, please tell me why you are not Muslim.

Because God did not allow me to be, the way he did not allow the entire Islands of King Phillip II [Philippines] to be a Muslim county.

God has a purpose in every season and every generations of man he created.

 

[AnnettefromTX]

Am I correct that the Iglesia Ni Cristo denies the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Trinity?

Reply: Yes we do cause it is not in the scriptures.

Stupid Question (which may have been answered but I didn’t scroll through all the replies…)

If you deny the divinity of Christ, then why is your church called the “Church of Christ”? What does Christ have to do with it if He’s not divine?

 

[ETE]

I think ETE and the INC are confused about Jesus the Son and in human flesh whom they do not literally would not compare Him to God. Of Course not because as the Son Jesus is equal to the Father in divinity while in human flesh He is not.

We are not confused, in fact our doctrine is biblically inclined and solidly founded in the gospel of the NT much more with the OT as a basis that it’s in total harmony.

Again, God would NOT BECOME MAN, and if he did…then God contradicted his own statements to his chosen people, Israel. But did he? Or the truth of the matter is another gospel came out, a GOD BECAME MAN gospel?

Hosea 11:9 I will not execute My fierce anger; I will not destroy Ephraim again. For I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst, And I will not come in wrath.

Ezekiel 28:2 "Son of man, say to the leader of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because your heart is lifted up And you have said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods In the heart of the seas’; Yet you are a man and not God, Although you make your heart like the heart of God–

[bold caps emphasis]

When Jesus spoke about being One with the Father, He is speaking with the Holy Spirit in Him that equates Him with Father while as human Jesus suffers in the form of a created being equal to the humans.

Again do not conclude based on presumptive notions and on something out of context. If Jesus and the Father are ONE [God], then verse will say so…but if not, then they are NOT…unless another scriptures clarifies that issues.

Arianism is dead and the fathers concluded that.

It is not the Early Fathers of the catholics concluded that, it was Emperor Constantine who break the stalemates.

“The Council could not agree and after two years, impatient at the delay, the Emperor Constantine appeared and addressed the assembly, ordering them to agree on the divinity of Christ…”(Challenge of a Liberal Faith, p. 60)

I think what motivated Manalo to build his own church is obviously the same goals of all other sects that are now numerous. They are very successful just like others because for them freedom has to be suppressed where the result is a harmonious and better organization. Is this the way to find truth?

It is not what you think that motivated bro FYM to preached the genuine gospel, instead, it God’s will for him to do such task based on the prophesies…and he did with all his might.

your wisdom is amazing and it is a waste for you to defend a wrong argument. If you become a true christian, I am sure you will have more complete and sufficient ammo against people who may want to be like you.

My God given wisdom shall be tested against the wisdom of this world cause it is written…

1 Cor 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of this world to put the wise to shame. He chose the weak things of this world to put the powerful to shame.

1 Cor 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

 

[ETE]

John 1
The Deity of Jesus Christ
1(A)In the beginning was (B)the Word, and the Word was (C)with God, and (D)the Word was God.

Is it not that you believed JESUS IS GOD’s WORD?

If it is, then JESUS is NOT the WORD…intead, the manifestation of God’s word? Or God’s words fulfillment, as simple as that my friend.

The WORD was God in John 1:1(c) is not Jesus, but God’s “WORD” itself.

 

[ralphinal]

So “older documents” means copies from copies right? And the copier are but Jesus diety’s believers which is a very dangerous combination on how to transfer a letter of the Apostles to another language nor copy the original to preserve it.

Those who copied the originals or copies from copies are NOT Jews, but pagan gentiles who believes in many gods and goddesses then converted to Christianity. Meaning: Injecting their own old doctrinal philosophy to the copies is not impossible to happen.

Then scrap the whole Book. If you cannot be sure than any of it is unaltered, you must throw the whole thing away.

I agree, how about if what they have received and memorized was already corrupted? 325AD Nicean Council debates and arguments regarding Jesus diety for TWO LONG years is but a good example of what was memorized against what is written is it not? Or else why it took them so long to beat a layman presbyter who declared JESUS IS NOT GOD from Alexandria [Arius]? That doesn’t make any sense for a Christian doctrine presumed existing, since day 30AD right?

Because people who buy into the lie tend to be irrational and difficult to communicate with. Some are prone to violence.

I read that chapter for so many times, but where is the doctrine that says, JESUS IS GOD? Where? That is what I want you to prove.

The Word was made Flesh and dwelt among us. Read the whole first chapter. The Word is God who came intot he world to bring the Light. The world did not accept him, but those who did inhereted all that God had for them. The Word is Jesus, God made Flesh to bring light unto the world. IT is there in black and white.

Please pay attention to what you have said but cannot perceive… "can you not see that the Word of God"

The WORD is NOT Jesus, you also believed that the “WORD” in John 1:1 was the WORD OF GOD is it not? Therefore whatever is with God and became flesh is God’s WORD and NOT Jesus, instead Jesus is the manifestation of God’s word…right?

Say what now? The Word is Jesus.

Talk to me with an open mind the you will understand that John never wrote Jesus is God never, or else he will contradict the other writers of the 66 books of the scriptures.

There are more than 66 books in the Bible. Further, no one book counteracts or contradicts another.

Because God did not allow me to be, the way he did not allow the entire Islands of King Phillip II [Philippines] to be a Muslim county.

God has a purpose in every season and every generations of man he created.

God does have a plan. However, Muslims deny the divinity of Jesus. They hold that the Bible is corrupted. They feel that Jesus is a prophet, a man of God, and the messiah. What is different between INC and Islam?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I agree with Annette. Why do you call yourself a Christian if you don’t believe in Christ? What is your belief system? I can’t make heads or tails of it!

 

[rikkk1958]

I may not as scholarly like you ETE but I also understood the scriptures in the Holy Bible. The point you are making here is an argument that has already been resolved long time ago and the dogma of the church was based on that conclusions. Here you are reviving the past. You will never be able to tell me or other catholics that here you are again, “believe me!” No ETE your arguments are yours to keep because it is based on matters that are already obsolete. I won’t blame you either because obviously you want to believe on what you think is right but sorry my friend the whole scriptures is right their in your eyes and minds to deciphere however, it explains well for our side. Not only the scriptures proves it but we have also the traditions that taught the community of believers of what they have seen and heard when Jesus was still walking here on earth. Are you trying to tell us that sometime in 1914 a man would just wake up one day to have another revelation? It looks like a copy cat from JS. ETE, the only difference between you and Manalo is because his family are billionairs now in the Philippines while you are I think is smarter than his offsprings. If you do the Manalo style, I am sure you will also get rich.

 

[ferdie]

You cannot read from the gospel nor from the letters of the Apostles that they taught JESUS IS GOD to the first century Christians , it is a presumptuous notion in the part of the JESUS DEITY believers.

Well the heretics got it wrong, just like your church got it wrong.

Comments with no hard evidence will not stand, but biblical proofs and historical evidence will make your doctrines solid and unbeatable which is not present sorry to say.

Compared to how your church distort biblical and historical truths, I’ll just stick to my comments, at least I’m not parading it as an absolute truth.

[/QUOTE]

 

[ferdie]

So “older documents” means copies from copies right? And the copier are but Jesus diety’s believers which is a very dangerous combination on how to transfer a letter of the Apostles to another language nor copy the original to preserve it.

Those who copied the originals or copies from copies are NOT Jews, but pagan gentiles who believes in many gods and goddesses then converted to Christianity. Meaning: Injecting their own old doctrinal philosophy to the copies is not impossible to happen.

 

[abucs]

Does the 1st letter of John give any clearer picture about his opening gospel paragraph ?

biblescripture.net/1John.html

 

[ETE]

I agree with Annette. Why do you call yourself a Christian if you don’t believe in Christ? What is your belief system? I can’t make heads or tails of it!

Is this question addressed to me?

 

[ETE]

You just love conspiracy theories, don’t you? Don’t you think it is quite arrogant to suggest that these monk have no love of God to deliberately change God’s word to mean what they want to mean?
St. Jerome who translated the Old and New Testaments from their original languages, and who knew Hebrew, Samaritan Aramaic, Syriac and Greek, advised us not to forget ‘that the Gospel consists not of words, but their meaning. A false explanation transforms God’s word into man’s word, and what is worse into the devil’s word: for the devils himself could quote Scriptures’.

 

[ETE]

I agree with Annette. Why do you call yourself a Christian if you don’t believe in Christ? What is your belief system? I can’t make heads or tails of it!

We believe in Christ, as Christ want’s me [INC’s] to believe him as it is written…
*
John 8:40 "But now you seek to kill Me, a Man* who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.

Jesus is a MAN, and Not God…and what was God testified about himself?

Hosea 11:9 I will not execute My fierce anger; I will not destroy Ephraim again. For I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst, And I will not come in wrath.

Ezekiel 28:2 "Son of man, say to the leader of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because your heart is lifted up And you have said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods In the heart of the seas’; Yet you are a man and not God, Although you make your heart like the heart of God–

The one speaking, who is none other than THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD testified “For I am God and not man” BUT Jesus confessed the other way around, “But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God.”

So how could it be possible for Jesus to be God? If MAN IS NOT GOD and GOD IS NOT MAN?

And Jesus also confessed that the truth he is proclaiming was not even his…but he heard it from God is it not? “a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God.”

Logically, The receiver and hearer of the truth [Jesus] is NOT the giver of the Truth [God]. If we would used basic common sense.

That’s why history makes sense, in telling us that JESUS IS GOD doctrine came up only in 110AD or the beginning of the second century and all the Apostles and elder of the Church who were with Christ are long long gone …and there was no written trace of such dogma before that date.

SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY. Augustus Hopkins String, D.D. Three Volumes in One, Philadelphia. The Judson Press Chicago. Kansas City, Los Angeles, Seattle. Copyright by Augustus Hopkins Strong. 1907

p. 305
“The earliest time known at which Jesus was deified was after the New Testament writers. In The letters of Ignatius, at the beginning of the second century.”

 

[ETE]

Then scrap the whole Book. If you cannot be sure than any of it is unaltered, you must throw the whole thing away.

If you going to scrap it, then what would be the basis of your salvation? Does the bible did not give any instruction on how to detect an altered verse that has something to do with salvation?

Because people who buy into the lie tend to be irrational and difficult to communicate with. Some are prone to violence.

What is irrational if what they have received and memorized was already corrupted? Did you ever thinks why the 325AD Nicean Council debates and arguments regarding Jesus diety tooks so long to resolve? But that was a good example of what was memorized against what is written is it not? Or else why it took them so long to beat a layman presbyter who declared JESUS IS NOT GOD from Alexandria [Arius]? That doesn’t make any sense for a Christian doctrine presumed existing, since day 30AD right?

Please deal with that rational issues and historically accurate,

The Word was made Flesh and dwelt among us. Read the whole first chapter. The Word is God who came into the world to bring the Light. The world did not accept him, but those who did inhereted all that God had for them. The Word is Jesus, God made Flesh to bring light unto the world. IT is there in black and white.

You are confused my friend. You believed that the term WORD in John 1:1 is God’s Word. If it is then which one is God? The WORD of GOD? or the fulfillment of the Word of God which is Jesus?

Say what now? The Word is Jesus.

Nope, I am referring to your statement, “can you not see that the Word of God”

That in John 1:1, the “WORD” was owned or belong to God…or the “Word” was THE WORD OF GOD.

In view of it, the WORD of God is NOT Jesus, instead refers to Jesus…or the fulfillment of God’s word based on the prophesies was Jesus.

There are more than 66 books in the Bible. Further, no one book counteracts or contradicts another.

Then why would a doctrine outside the bible will emerge? A doctrine the Jesus is God?

God does have a plan. However, Muslims deny the divinity of Jesus. They hold that the Bible is corrupted. They feel that Jesus is a prophet, a man of God, and the messiah. What is different between INC and Islam?

Well, The bible never said JESUS IS GOD, and some verses of the bible was being mistranslated by some translators and used a para-phrase method which is based on the translators understanding of the intended thoughts of the writers themselves.

They are also right in saying Jesus is some kind of a prophet, but the bible call him God’s Messenger, the anointed Messiah, the Christ.

The difference between INC and Islam is, we believe in the bible, they do not.

 

[ralphinal]

Who is the Holy Spirit?