Question about Iglesia Ni Cristo [Church of Christ]

[ETE]

Also, what do you make of Paul, ETE? When God cried to him, “Saul, Saul why are you persecuting me?”

Don’t you think Paul knew that Jesus was God? Of course he did, and he lived much earlier that 325 A.D.

God was not the one who appeared to Paul in his way to Damascus. It was Jesus.

Acts 9:3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It [is] hard for you to kick against the goads."

 

[CHRISTINE77]

ETE - What about Paul? Paul was almost a contemporary of Jesus.

"The first formulation of Christ’s lordship claims that Christ embodied all the fullness of the Deity and that he did so in bodily form. Clearly, Paul intends to challenge any requirement that Christians go through other “spiritual powers” to get to the exalted Christ. Our access to the exalted Christ in heaven is immediate and direct, and through him we have the attentive ear of God Almighty (see Heb 4:14-16). If we are “in him,” we belong to One who is fully God and require nothing else.

The word Paul uses for God (theotes), translated “Deity,” is distinguished from another word (theiotes) used often by ancient philosophers when referring to something or someone “divine.” The distinction is important for understanding Paul’s Christology. Christ is not “divine” in the sense that we speak of superb food as “simply divine” or of virtuous individuals as “godly.” Christ is much more than a superb person of godly virtue. Paul asserts that Christ Jesus is God in bodily form."

biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/index.php?action=getCommentaryText&cid=9&source=1&seq=i.58.2.4

 

[scipio337]

Why don’t they just join up with the LDS? Joey Smith was selling the same restorationist tripe almost a century before. A cult of personality wrapped in a “great apostacy” enigma. Priceless.

 

[ralphinal]

God has seven spirits being sent to the entire world…I don;t know which one is the one mentioned in Genesis…nor the one that descended from heaven after Christ baptism. But we all know that it is the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

So are they all God? Is God Septarian?

 

[ralphinal]

One of the issues with this group, as with any who throw out oral tradition, is that they ignore the historical way first and second century Churches were founded. Someone went into an area, taught about Jesus, then used letters to re-inforce and correct errors. This is obviously how it was done. Now, by throwing out oral tradition, you have ignored the way it was meant to be.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Quote from ETE: Acts 9:3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It [is] hard for you to kick against the goads.”

“Who are you LORD? Then the Lord said"I am Jesus” - just proves to me that JESUS is GOD. I don’t know how you interpret things, but that says it ALL to me. What is your interpretation of GOD? When a voice comes out of the heavens, as far as I know, in all of the Bible – it’s God speaking. You believe Jesus was in Heaven when he spoke to Paul, right? Do you think that Jesus is a separate god from GOD? I don’t understand what you worship…

 

[ETE]

It is not presumption, it is in the scriptures, and if you will set aside your bias you will find out that SOME will fall away and NOT ALL like what you believe. We both know that idol worshipers do not inherit the Kingdom of God.

I think we are not communicating here. Falling away from the faith or APOSTASY does not mean the people are leaving the Church that Jesus built, instead the people or members of the body remains or did not leave, but the faith falls away or being changed, that’s why it is called “apostasy”.

They countered the heretics of their time. Read for yourself a christian history book, not just excerpt twisted by your ministers, and stop accusing us of idol worshiping. It has been explained time and time again. Read the catechism and quote me where it says that catholics are to worship idols. Otherwise stop regurgitating twisted accusations of your church

I think you better read your own Catechism book that declares: Catholic must be an IDOL/IMAGE WORSHIPERS as part of your doctrine.

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[ETE]

So are they all God? Is God Septarian?

Nope, the seven spirit of God are the ones sent all over the world, they are independent of God…to refresh your memory…all heavenly beings are spirits in nature except Jesus, Elijah and Enosh.

Again, there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD, and that God is also Spirit in Nature…but NOT the seven SPIRITs.

John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

 

[Corki]

I think you better read your own Catechism book that declares: Catholic must be an IDOL/IMAGE WORSHIPERS as part of your doctrine.

Hold on now. :nope:

First of all, that isn’t our Catechism. From the front page, it appears to have been a question and answer study book prepared for the **local **use of Catholics in the Philippines - in 1959.

The universal Catechism of the Catholic Church is available on-line here. It was published in English in 1997. If you are going to try to use our own words against us, at least use the actual documents.

Second, if you are trying to point out the sections which are circled, they state exactly what ferdie and many before him (her) have been trying to tell you - that Catholics hold the Saints in high honor, that we venerate them but don’t worship them.

 

[ETE]

Why don’t they just join up with the LDS? Joey Smith was selling the same restorationist tripe almost a century before. A cult of personality wrapped in a “great apostacy” enigma. Priceless.

A person who wish to be saved should leave this world with a full assurance that he is not recruited by the false preachers of salvation…and he will land in the destination that he aimed for.

If a person just assumed he will be saved without verifying his paper works if it is the legal documentation required for such to enter the heaven and find out later he was deceived by the false prophets pretending as preachers of salvation due to presumption and false hope and blind services…then both will end up in destruction.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Matthew 15:14 “Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

 

[ETE]

Hold on now. :nope:

First of all, that isn’t our Catechism. From the front page, it appears to have been a question and answer study book prepared for the **local **use of Catholics in the Philippines - in 1959.

The universal Catechism of the Catholic Church is available on-line here. It was published in English in 1997. If you are going to try to use our own words against us, at least use the actual documents.

I see, so Nihil obstat and Imprimatur does not mean anything once applied in a Catechism book?

Are you telling me that the 93% Catholic Church in the Philippines are NOT part of the Universal [Catholic] Church? And what was written in the Catechism book is NOT correct?

Did you check who approve it? Rome has its approval didn’t you read?

“PERMISSU SUPERIORUM
Bro. E. Victor, Assistant, Rome, Italy, 1955”

Plus “NIHIL OBSTAT” and “IMPRIMATUR” that makes it FREE of ERRORS…if you know what it mean.

Second, if you are trying to point out the sections which are circled, they state exactly what ferdie and many before him (her) have been trying to tell you - that Catholics hold the Saints in high honor, that we venerate them but don’t worship them.

Well if you don’t worship IDOLS and IMAGES then the Catholic church will brand you as a “heretic”, a disobedient member who do not follow their Superiors. And if you live in the time of inquisition, then death is the penalty to such heretic…just to remind you of your own history.

 

[ETE]

One of the issues with this group, as with any who throw out oral tradition, is that they ignore the historical way first and second century Churches were founded. Someone went into an area, taught about Jesus, then used letters to re-inforce and correct errors. This is obviously how it was done. Now, by throwing out oral tradition, you have ignored the way it was meant to be.

Tradition should agree with the scriptures, that’s the bottom line of it.

If not, then apostasy takes over due to falling away from the true faith.

 

[ETE]

Quote from ETE: Acts 9:3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It [is] hard for you to kick against the goads.”

“Who are you LORD? Then the Lord said"I am Jesus” - just proves to me that JESUS is GOD. I don’t know how you interpret things, but that says it ALL to me. What is your interpretation of GOD? When a voice comes out of the heavens, as far as I know, in all of the Bible – it’s God speaking. You believe Jesus was in Heaven when he spoke to Paul, right? Do you think that Jesus is a separate god from GOD? I don’t understand what you worship…

If your contention in proving JESUS IS GOD due to the term “LORD” by which Apostle Paul called Jesus…then you need to read this, cause this is the reason why Jesus became lord…

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

In conclusion: If Jesus is Lord…then the truth of the matter is, JESUS WAS MADE LORD by God.

The maker [God] and the one made [Jesus as Lord] are NOT the same entity. This are but basic common sense my friend.

 

[ferdie]

I

think we are not communicating here. Falling away from the faith or APOSTASY does not mean the people are leaving the Church that Jesus built, instead the people or members of the body remains or did not leave, but the faith falls away or being changed, that’s why it is called “apostasy”.

 

[ferdie]

Why don’t they just join up with the LDS? Joey Smith was selling the same restorationist tripe almost a century before. A cult of personality wrapped in a “great apostacy” enigma. Priceless.

Are you kidding? Manalo the “Messanger of God” is not that stupid to share his power and wealth.
Did you read the document he/she pasted? Didn’t even bother to circle # s2, 8 and 9. They love misquoting.

 

[ferdie]

Well if you don’t worship IDOLS and IMAGES then the Catholic church will brand you as a “heretic”, a disobedient member who do not follow their Superiors. And if you live in the time of inquisition, then death is the penalty to such heretic…just to remind you of your own history.

Have you read history books about the inquisition, or are you again, just going regurgitate the prepared answers by you ministers? Mind you there’s a lot of murders committed by you church also.

 

[ETE]

There is no miscommunication. Scriptures warned us of people introducing new doctrines that were not handed down by the Apostles, and people with itching ears will listen and follow and be swayed by every doctrines that falls on their feet.

You said that JESUS AND HIS APOSTLES were not IDOL/IMAGE WORSHIPERS…right?

If they were not, then to whom did the IMAGE/IDOL WORSHIP came from? Don’t you get it? A doctrine that has no shadows of practices by the first century Christians is a sign that someone introduces it, and who do you think introduced it if not Christ and the Apostles?

I read my cathechism a long time ago, but not all of it. But ETE, this is the problem with the members of the INC., they just repeat word for word the explanations given by their ministers without researching if they are true. A minister will show a quote from a book and tell their followers: " See I told you according to this book, page so and so, that catholics worship idols". But the minister will not bother to explain the context or what the author was trying to convey. They will not tell the history of the word, how that word was used in a certain book, or how people of that time used that word, or how word change their meaning.

The context is simply question and answer is it not? So why not accept that you are an IDOL/IMAGE WORSHIPERS? Are you a Catholic? or Not?

**CATHECHISM OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE **
No. 3 in conformity with the decrees of the Plenary Council and the code of 1918.
Nihil obstat: A.G Casas, Censor Librorum, Imprimatur: Rufino J. Santos, D.D., Archbishop of Manila. De La Salle College. Brothers of the Christian Schools, Manila Philippines, 1955.

p.13
13. “Is the worship of the saints confined to their persons?

No; it extends also to their relics and images”

p. 95
**“15. Ought we to worship holy images?

“We should have, particularly in our churches, images of Our Lord, as also the Virgin Mary and the saints, and we should pay them due honor and venerations.”
**

For example, you said that you believed that Jesus is divine but not a God. You used the word divine in one of its old use, meaning holy instead of meaning deity. That is what I meant when I said that St. John wrote his Gospel to counter Cerentius and Ebion. And then your minister circled #13 and #15 in that 1959 local edition of the catechism. But your church never tried to understand what the author meant by the word worship, and just jump in to conclusion that we worship idols.

It did not even accured to them that the author was using the word worship in one of its old use, meaning to venerate, to give honor.

They only want you to read #13 and # 15 and never bothered to circle # 8 and #9. You see how they are deceiving you?

ETE, you should familiarize yourself with the words dulia, hyperdulia, and latria and then maybe next time we can avoid this kind of misunderstanding.

I have had answered your question my friend…

“Read the catechism and quote me where it says that catholics are to worship idols. Otherwise stop regurgitating twisted accusations of your church”

What else can I say, your book testified that you as a Catholic should be and must be an IMAGE/IDOL WORSHIPERS…which I believe you have no idea that you must my friend…

 

[ETE]

Have you read history books about the inquisition, or are you again, just going regurgitate the prepared answers by you ministers? Mind you there’s a lot of murders committed by you church also.

My friend, don’t test my ability…and I have proven more than enough.

“Inquisition” is not a member individual crimes, it was a crime managed and perpetuated by the Catholic Church. You better read your history.

 

[ETE]

Are you kidding? Manalo the “Messanger of God” is not that stupid to share his power and wealth.
Did you read the document he/she pasted? Didn’t even bother to circle # s2, 8 and 9. They love misquoting.

Ad hominem will do you no good, but a good refutation and solid evidence will make what you stand for acceptable and believable.

In addition, #2, #8, #9 did not refute that you are an IDOL/IMAGE WORSHIPER my friend.

**CATHECHISM OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE **
No. 3 in conformity with the decrees of the Plenary Council and the code of 1918.
Nihil obstat: A.G Casas, Censor Librorum, Imprimatur: Rufino J. Santos, D.D., Archbishop of Manila. De La Salle College. Brothers of the Christian Schools, Manila Philippines, 1955.

p.13
13. “Is the worship of the saints confined to their persons?

No; it extends also to their relics and images”

p. 95
**“15. Ought we to worship holy images?

“We should have, particularly in our churches, images of Our Lord, as also the Virgin Mary and the saints, and we should pay them due honor and venerations.” **

 

[Ghoti]

Re: Godhood of Jesus stated directly in Scripture

Has this one been mentioned yet?

[sup]1[/sup] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.…[sup]14[/sup] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. [Gospel of John]

The Word = God
The Word → flesh (Jesus)

Therefore, God → flesh (Jesus)

I don’t think you can get any more straightforward than that.