Question about Iglesia Ni Cristo [Church of Christ]

[rikkk1958]

Posted by ETE
But the bottom line is, you are image/idol worshipers, either INDIRECT or DIRECT, or Dulia, Latria or hyperdulia…Catholics WORSHIP IMAGES And that is the bottom line of this discussions.

ETE, you may call it like we are worshipping but the thing is you are not a catholic and doesnt know what is in our hearts. You are judging by the way of how you read however the intention of the writer is not what it means. Idol worshipping is not something that you devout yourself of praying to an image and that to an image alone either a dog, cat, calf, etc. The bottom line is, ETE you are misjudging Catholics! When we pray in front of an image (you’ll never see an image aside from human), we never give any thoughts of the image but the imagination of the One who is with God, either Jesus, Mary, and all the Saints. We love the Saints because they offered themselves to the Lord which was venerated by our bishops qualifying them to saints. Paul was clear about illustrations that will guide the believers because anyhow an illustration is one way the future generations will understand on what the Disciples and Apostles have seen and heard. ETE, your argument is based on your presumption against ours, and I believed the meaning behind the Cathechism book you posted doesn’t contain anything of how it must be interpreted like you do.

 

[ferdie]

But the bottom line is, you are image/idol worshipers, either INDIRECT or DIRECT, or Dulia, Latria or hyperdulia…Catholics WORSHIP IMAGES And that is the bottom line of this discussions.

Let me put it this way the way Catholics understand it.

Example of “INDIRECT WORSHIP”:

If your wife sleeps with another man, but what she is doing is for your honor and veneration though he is on top of another man will not bother you and is acceptable before you right?

The way you worship God but you are kneeling to those idols and images in veneration and honor of God right?

Do you think God will accept that? The way you wife explain the reasons why he is sleeping with another man in honor, respect and to venerate you?

I think you Catholics knows the answer to such question.

Compare these verses…

Exodus 20:5 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness [of anything] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth; You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

To this doctrine…

CATHECHISM OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE
No. 3 in conformity with the decrees of the Plenary Council and the code of 1918.
Nihil obstat: A.G Casas, Censor Librorum, Imprimatur: Rufino J. Santos, D.D., Archbishop of Manila. De La Salle College. Brothers of the Christian Schools, Manila Philippines, 1955.

“15. Ought we to worship holy images?

“We should have, particularly in our churches, images of Our Lord, as also the Virgin Mary and the saints, and we should pay them due honor and venerations.”

It is heaven and hell doctrine is it not?

Again you are limiting the meaning of the words " worship" and “bowing down”. I can bow down out of respect to a person, but I know that when I bow down, I am not worshiping that person. Just like when I honor my family and friends, it is not he same honor that I give to God.

Now let us see what the Catechism of the Church says about this:

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 **The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone: **
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, **but tends toward that whose image it is. **

Catholics worship God alone, Mary is not a goddess, the angels are not gods, the saints are not gods it is Catholic doctrine that worship (Latria) is for God alone.

The Catholic Church is not violating any Gods commandments.

 

[ferdie]

You did not answer my question…to whom and where does those teachings came from? to be an IMAGE WORSHIPERS? For sure Jesus and his Apostles did not teach that…right?

Idol worship is prohibited in the Old and New Testaments.

Did John write the Christians to be an image/idol worshipers?

John wrote his Gospel to counter Cerenthius and Ebion who were against the divinity of our Lord. And you sided with these heretics.

That is what I want you to prove, because SAVAGE WOLVES and FALSE TEACHERS is no longer a legend…they are real people in the church…and they will bring DESTRUCTIVE UNTRUE DOCTRINES.

Acts 20:29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

2 Peter 2:1 False prophets appeared in the past among the people, and in the same way* false teachers will appear among you*. They will bring in destructive, untrue doctrines, and will deny the Master who redeemed them, and so they will bring upon themselves sudden destruction.

These are talking about the people who went against the Church.They did not listened to the teachings of the bishops, who received their teachings from the Apostles, who received their teachings from our Lord. That is why the Apostles told them to stand firm to the Traditions that were given them, so they may be able to stand against the destructive doctrines of the heretics.
Jesus set up the Church as His body, Christ is the head and we are His body.
Jesus said to his apostles, “As the Father sent me, so I send you” and “He who hears you, hears me.” **Listening to the **Church is listening to Christ because the Church has Christ’s mission. That mission is what we call the great commission.
I

 

[ralphinal]

“The earliest post-New Testament writers, known as the Apostolic Fathers, continued the development that had emerged in the later New Testament period of calling Jesus God.** Ignatius of Antioch, writing in the second century to the Ephesians, declares, ‘Jesus Christ our God was conceived of Mary’ (Eph 18:2) and, ‘God was now appearing in human form’ (Eph 19:3).”** (Word Become Flesh, pp. 161-162)

Please give me more source information. All that google keeps pulling up is this thread.

Personally, I would love five or six unconnected sources with scholarly citations that I can verify.

 

[PaulDupre]

Again you are limiting the meaning of the words " worship" and “bowing down”. I can bow down out of respect to a person, but I know that when I bow down, I am not worshiping that person. Just like when I honor my family and friends, it is not he same honor that I give to God.

Now let us see what the Catechism of the Church says about this:

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 **The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone: **
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, **but tends toward that whose image it is. **

Catholics worship God alone, Mary is not a goddess, the angels are not gods, the saints are not gods it is Catholic doctrine that worship (Latria) is for God alone.

The Catholic Church is not violating any Gods commandments.

The problem with INCs is that they think God is stupid. They think that God is unable to distinguish between pious respect and worship.

 

[abucs]

ETE,

we have to agree with what idol worship is to begin with. Then we have to ask who does that and how widespread it is and if it is a prescribed part of the religion. I can tell you as a Catholic that i do not worship idols, nor do any Catholics i know. and as far as i am aware, it is against my religion to do so. that on the other hand does not mean that all Catholics adhere to that.
In olden times idol worship meant that statues had special powers and divinity within them. In parts of Africa this is still the case. Perhaps some parts of the Philippines go overboard with their local parish statues, but that is most definitely not Catholicism if they do so. I have lived in the Philippines before and i know that some Catholics do emotionally attach themselves to statues and it is borderline sometimes as idol worship - such as with Santo Nino in Cebu and other local parishes. But the vast majority of Catholics in the Philippines, and even more prevalent outside the Philippines do not look at statues as embodying any divinty. Where i now practice as a Catholic, idols are so not part of the culture that we speak figuratively about ‘money’, ‘power’ and ‘prestige’ as being our modern days idols that we shouldn’t worship.

So i would say that idol worship is not part of the Catholic Church.
From my perspective.

Peace be with you.

 

[abucs]

ETE,

you say that the original Christianity did not have Christ as divine.
You sight history and the scriptures for your case.
Catholics sight history, scriptures and the Church for theirs.
Of course you claim that the church must have apostised.

OK, fair enough ETE, you read it a certain way and that is what makes sense to you.

From my perspective i read it a different way although i respect your right to see it differently.

I don’t agree with everything in the following link but the first part regarding Christs divinity makes a good case from scriptures.

ucg.org.au/booklets/JC.pdf

I don’t think there is any need to ‘invent’ it afterwards. I don’t see a place historically after the apostles where it was ‘invented’ and i think the scriptures are clear enough (for me).

I am happy to accept that and respect your right to see it differently. We of course each think the other is incorrect.

Of course there is the whole question of whether Christ founded a church or not with authority. I again answer affirmative to that from my understanding. If you see it differently then, of course, i will again, respect that.

Peace be with you.

 

[abucs]

The Inquisition.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

 

[ferdie]

,

Perhaps some parts of the Philippines go overboard with their local parish statues, but that is most definitely not Catholicism if they do so. I have lived in the Philippines before and i know that some Catholics do emotionally attach themselves to statues and it is borderline sometimes as idol worship - such as with Santo Nino in Cebu and other local parishes. But the vast majority of Catholics in the Philippines, and even more prevalent outside the Philippines do not look at statues as embodying any divinty.
.

My friend, when I was younger I used to see this devotion as overacting, show off. But when I grew up and felt the pain and suffering of my people, living in a third world country where all the branches of the government, the excecutive, the legislative, and the judicial use and abuse them, where businessmen, law enforcers, and goverement officials are partners in crime, where graft and corruption is away of life and there’s no one else you can turn to but God, that is when I started to understand their devotion. If Christ their savior suffered and died for us sinners, then walking kneeling down while praying the rosary is nothing, then a kiss on the feet or five wounds of the Lord is nothing but a kiss to soothe the pain of their Lord when they sin and sin again. It is a way of asking our Lord’s forgiveness. As with nearly all situations, when we are on the outside looking in, we can’t truly understand and we will always have a different interpretation.

 

[abucs]

Well said ferdie. We have much to learn from the faith and strength of those with much less than us, be they in our own countries or elsewhere.

 

[ETE]

ETE;4007756:

Existence is the issue, in the term: I AM was before Abraham.

And not the God’s name “I AM” that was given to Moses in the wilderness…is what he is referring to.

For the Jews, Jesus claiming he is the “Son of God” is a blasphemous declaration…for them the terms means Jesus is equating himself to God, but is it true?

Well we both know that it is false.

So if Jesus pre-existed Abraham, what was his nature then? Obviously his humanity was still inexistent that time.

Jesus existence was simply a “Word” of God from the beginning and nothing else…unless we are imagining more that what is written.

And it is IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to exist as a MAN before Abraham was, and if he does…then God statements will be in contradictions based on the scriptures…

Ezekiel 28:2 "Son of man, say to the leader of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because your heart is lifted up And you have said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods In the heart of the seas’; Yet you are a man and not God, Although you make your heart like the heart of God–

Hosea 11:9 I will not execute My fierce anger; I will not destroy Ephraim again. For I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst, And I will not

God said God is NOT a MAN and Man is NOT GOD…so why would the Almighty God declares such statements if it’s true the JESUS IS GOD the MAN and in existence before time?

That doesn’t make any sense, for the omnipotent God to declare.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Yes we do cause it is not in the scriptures.

So are you happy to admit you are not Christians?

 

[ETE]

This is a narrative of John about Jesus’ claim of who exactly he is:

John 5:18

18 Hereupon therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he did not only break the sabbath, but also said God was his Father, making himself equal to God.

This is tough to ignore and the best Iglesia Ni Cristo, the heretic organization founded by Manalo, can do is rationalize to the point of distorting the true and original intended meaning of the verse.

You need to expand your understanding of the verse. Never never did Jesus claim he is GOD, instead his enemies thought that Jesus is making himself equal to God by declaring “God was his Father” or He is the Son of God…

Do you agree with Jesus ENEMIES that Jesus is God because he is the The Son of God?

This are all so basic common sense my friend.

 

[ETE]

ETE;4007937:

Posted by ETE
But the bottom line is, you are image/idol worshipers, either INDIRECT or DIRECT, or Dulia, Latria or hyperdulia…Catholics WORSHIP IMAGES And that is the bottom line of this discussions.

ETE, you may call it like we are worshipping but the thing is you are not a catholic and doesnt know what is in our hearts. You are judging by the way of how you read however the intention of the writer is not what it means. Idol worshipping is not something that you devout yourself of praying to an image and that to an image alone either a dog, cat, calf, etc. The bottom line is, ETE you are misjudging Catholics! When we pray in front of an image (you’ll never see an image aside from human), we never give any thoughts of the image but the imagination of the One who is with God, either Jesus, Mary, and all the Saints. We love the Saints because they offered themselves to the Lord which was venerated by our bishops qualifying them to saints. Paul was clear about illustrations that will guide the believers because anyhow an illustration is one way the future generations will understand on what the Disciples and Apostles have seen and heard. ETE, your argument is based on your presumption against ours, and I believed the meaning behind the Cathechism book you posted doesn’t contain anything of how it must be interpreted like you do.

I see, so If your wife sleeps with another man, and perform sexual activity [actions in worshiping god through images] and what she is doing is for your honor, veneration and glory though he is on top of another man is okay with you?

It will not bother you right? Anyways, the man he is having sex with is not in her mind no matter what they will do, instead it is you that is in her mind while performing such sexual activity…and you must agree with me, since it can be done with your god, and you are not thinking the images wherein the action of worship is being rendered, anyways it is for god…right?

I believe that a man with a right frame of mind, and knows reasons and common sense will not agree with his wife alibi once caught fornicating with another man…how much more God himself?

Exodus 20:5 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness [of anything] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth; You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

CURSE! is upon the idol/image worshipers, God declares.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

When one tunes into Iglessia Ni Cristo broadcast, they will immediately see a single representative in an office setting, behind a desk with a bookshelf filled with books in the background. His speaking is very frank, dry and serious, he is point blank about what they call “the message.”

What is this message? To tear down the churches teaching of Christ being God and that he is not deity, that he is the Son not the father. The Father is almighty the Son is not.

One better have their bible open and know what they believe when listening to them.

No one can deny their passion for what they believe is the truth. Nor that they can be nice people. Unfortunately they ignore the whole history of the Church in the zealous rebuttals against Catholicism.

Nothing is out of reach of their researchers to demean and belittle. Some of the greatest scholars in languages and history are ignored or misrepresented as they present what they believe is correct. I suspect that many know better in what they teach.

They choose and train excellent orators to present their rebuttal against what the Church has believed since its inception. Everyone is trained in the same manner and all speak with similar gestures and content . Why change what has worked for over 50 years.? In the same fashion as J W’s but with more intensity they challenge everyone to what they were taught as wrong. Their intention is to take people out from Catholic and Protestant wing of the church to join theirs which they claim is the only true church on earth.

In fact the majority of the Iglesia’s members are ex-Catholics. The Philippines is a very religious country and probably the only dominantly Catholic nation in the Far East, with over eighty percent of its population belonging to the Church. Since this is its largest potential source of converts, Iglesia implements anti-Catholic scare tactics which cannot stand up to biblical scrutiny to support their own doctrines. The Iglesia sells its doctrines to the people not by proving they are right but only having to prove the Catholic Church’s teachings are wrong. This is not a hard task to do since Protestants have been equally successful in doing this as well.

The Church’s teaching which is under Iglesia’s fire is the divinity of Jesus Christ. Like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Iglesia claims that Jesus Christ is not God but a created being. They also deny there is any Trinity using the same cliche’ others do, you can’t find the word “Trinity” in the Bible. Neither is the Island of the Philippines mentioned in the bible, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

They teach Christ is only a man which had authority given to him using such scriptures Jn.8:40 and the numerous places Christ calls himself a man. Lk.24:36 where Jesus said to the mistaken disciples see a Spirit does not have flesh and bones so he is not a Spirit. He was correcting their wrong belief which proves he was not God (Also Hosea 11:9)

What they ignore is the context why they thought he was a ghost, he just appeared in the room which no man can do. They argue against what we don’t believe. We do believe he was true man but he also was true God. Their argument is not with the church per se but the bible itself. Phil. 2 :5-11 solves all that challenges of his being subordinate. If one wants to look to Christ not being in this subordinate position the 2nd coming should be clear enough in Rev.17:14 “These shall make war with the Lamb and the Lamb shall overcome them; for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings.”

Deut.10:17 tells us that Yahweh is the LORD OF LORDS. Only if Christ IS Yahweh and the Father IS Yahweh do we have any consistency in scripture.
Undermining The Bibles authority and replacing it with mans
The INC organization constantly claims that the Bible is the sole source of their doctrines but they subtly undermine the Bible’s reliability and ultimate authority. This is a common practice of organized heresies.

“…some of the verses of the Bible were wrongly translated.” PASUGO, February 1973, p. 16.
“No, it is beyond man’s power and intelligence to study and understand the truth, which is God’s word (John 17:17), by himself, without the guidance of God’s messenger.” (PASUGO, November 1973, p., 19, 20.)

What they do is train people to hear the voice of their own shepherd instead of the true shepherd.

“A doctrine is not of God if it is different from what is written in the Holy Scriptures, or even if found written but is not the present truth it becomes vain before God if used as the basis for worshipping God.” ( PASUGO, Jan. 1976, p. 12.)

It is common for authoritarian groups to undermine anything that might threaten their position as the ultimate source of truth in the, life of the member.

From:
letusreason.org/Iglesia4.htm

 

[ETE]

ETE;4016940:

Yes we do cause it is not in the scriptures.

So are you happy to admit you are not Christians?

Huh? What do you mean?

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Huh? What do you mean?

Yeah, in case you didn’t know, Christians have ALWAYS belived in the divinity of Christ.

So if you don’t believe that, like the Mormons, you are being intellectually dishonest if you call yourself a “Christian”

scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

 

[ETE]

Again you are limiting the meaning of the words " worship" and “bowing down”. I can bow down out of respect to a person, but I know that when I bow down, I am not worshiping that person. Just like when I honor my family and friends, it is not he same honor that I give to God.

Now let us see what the Catechism of the Church says about this:

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 **The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone: **
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, **but tends toward that whose image it is. **

Catholics worship God alone, Mary is not a goddess, the angels are not gods, the saints are not gods it is Catholic doctrine that worship (Latria) is for God alone.

The Catholic Church is not violating any Gods commandments.

I’ll make it simple for you…cause it seems to me that you are having a hard understanding simple argument.

Does God allow Man to carve an IMAGE to represent him? Does he allow man to bow down and worship images nor serve them?

Exodus 20:5 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness [of anything] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth; You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

I’ll make it simple for you…cause it seems to me that you are having a hard understanding simple argument.

Does God allow Man to carve an IMAGE to represent him? Does he allow man to bow down and worship images nor serve them?

Exodus 20:5 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness [of anything] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth; You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

Perhaps you need a lesson in what “historical context” is.

Oh and is God schizophrenic?

Exodues 25:18 Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. 19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other

Exodues 25 is God commanding a status of an angel.
So what is it? Statues or not statues ETE?

 

[ETE]

Again you are limiting the meaning of the words " worship" and “bowing down”. I can bow down out of respect to a person, but I know that when I bow down, I am not worshiping that person. Just like when I honor my family and friends, it is not he same honor that I give to God.

Now let us see what the Catechism of the Church says about this:

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 **The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone: **
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, **but tends toward that whose image it is. **

Catholics worship God alone, Mary is not a goddess, the angels are not gods, the saints are not gods it is Catholic doctrine that worship (Latria) is for God alone.

The Catholic Church is not violating any Gods commandments.

Can’t you tell me if this arrangement between you and your wife acceptable?

Let say your wife sleeps with another man, and perform sexual activity and what she is doing is for your honor, veneration and glory though he is on top of another man, then it is okay with you?

It will not bother you right?

Anyways, the man he is having sex with is not in her mind no matter what they will do, instead it is you that is in her mind while performing such sexual activity…and you must agree with me, since it can be done with your god, and you are not thinking the images wherein the action of worship is being rendered, anyways it is for god, the action of worship and bowing down that you rendered in those images…right?

I need a clean cut answer.