OK .seems we agree that not all Septuagint is “God breathed”, hence not all books are in bibles today.
Honestly, I’m not sure what happens to people when they die. Lazarus and Tabitha were brought back to life…where were they when they were dead? Were they with God in heaven? If so, why would they not want to stay where they were at.Hi, Rita…dead…means physically dead on earth.
And I think we have the same belief here…upon death, we either go directly to heaven or hell…this is what you believe too and I am assuming a yes from you.
Now you asked… How do you know that these individuals have certainly made it to heaven?
Well…now you got me confused here…do you believe there is no one in heaven? Do you believe those in heaven are alive or dead?
Now to your question…how do we know if an individual has made it to heaven?
The CC does it through the rigorous process of canonization to the sainthood. We the CC, and the Orthodox also, give the title of Saint to a person, the Church is certain that these afforded the title of “Saint” is indeed in heaven.
Hi Rita.
There are about four steps that the Chrush has to go through in order to canonize a person (for sainthood).
Good to hear that, Dorothy as I can think on some people who I’ve known throughout the years in my service as a Lutheran teacher who, not knowing their true inward thoughts, walked in a very close relationship with the Lord. These who have passed on, Lutheran or not, walked very saintly lives and I would be certainly surprised NOT to see them in heaven.And, when we talk about canonized saints we are talking about heroic virtue. They are spotlighted as examples of what the Lord can do when we cooperate fully with His grace.
They are not the only ones in heaven.
I concur with your view.
Your conclusion is erroneous. I pointed out to you quite some months ago in another thread Rev 6:9 that there are souls in heaven under the altar very much alive who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. I am surprised that after been pointed out that chapter/verse (and without a rebuttal from you) that you still harbour this view. Have you investigated this verse and what is your conclusion of that verse? That there are no saints in heaven? I thought Rev 6:9 is pretty clear and unambiguous. Rev 7:9 includes many more saints in heaven. Their souls are not “somewhere else”. They have already been judged and in heaven and serving God day and night within his temple Rev 7:15. Perhaps you may wish to reconsider your conclusion or exegete these verses to support your existing view.
CHAPTER LIX
WHEN Jesus, after uttering a loud cry, expired, I saw his heavenly soul under the form of a bright meteor pierce the earth at the foot of the Cross, accompanied by the angel Gabriel and many other angels. His Divine nature continued united to his soul as well as to his body, which still remained hanging upon the Cross, but I cannot explain how this was, although I saw it plainly in my own mind. The place into which the soul of Jesus entered was divided into three parts, which appeared to me like three worlds; and I felt that they were round, and that each division was separated from the other by a hemisphere.
I beheld a bright and beautiful space opposite to Limbo; it was enamelled with flowers, delicious breezes wafted through it; and many souls were placed there before being admitted into Heaven after their deliverance from Purgatory. Limbo, the place where the souls were waiting for the Redemption, was divided into different compartments, and encompassed by a thick foggy atmosphere. Our Lord appeared radiant with light and surrounded by angels, who conducted him triumphantly between two of these compartments; the one on the left containing the patriarchs who lived before the time of Abraham, and that on the right those who lived between the days of Abraham and St. John Baptist. These souls did not at first recognise Jesus, but were filled nevertheless with sensations of joy and hope. There was not a spot in those narrow confines which did not, as it were, dilate with feelings of happiness. The passage of Jesus might be compared to the wafting of a breath of air, to a sudden flash of light, or to a shower of vivifying dew, but it was swift as a whirlwind. After passing through the two compartments, he reached a dark spot in which Adam and Eve were standing; he spoke to them, they prostrated and adored him in a perfect ecstasy of joy, and they immediately joined the band of angels, and accompanied our Lord to the compartment on the left, which contained the patriarchs who lived before Abraham. This compartment was a species of Purgatory, and a few evil spirits were wandering about among the souls and endeavouring to fill them with anxiety and alarm. The entrance through a species of door was closed, but the angels rapped, and I thought I heard them say, ‘Open these doors.’ When Jesus entered in triumph the demons dispersed, crying out at the same time, ‘What is there between thee and us? What art thou come to do here? Wilt thou crucify us likewise?’ The angels hunted them away, having first chained them. The poor souls confined in this place had only a slight presentiment and vague idea of the presence of Jesus; but the moment he told them that it was he himself, they burst out into acclamations of joy, and welcomed him with hymns of rapture and delight. The soul of our Lord then wended its way to the right, towards that part which really constituted Limbo; and there he met the soul of the good thief which angels were carrying to Abraham’s bosom, as also that of the bad thief being dragged by demons into Hell. Our Lord addressed a few words to both, and then entered Abraham’s bosom, accompanied by numerous angels and holy souls, and also by those demons who had been chained and expelled from the compartment.No brainwashing, just blood washing Rita.
Hi Chong,
Actually some say it was not a parable but an actual true story.
Hell is the deeper part sheol in the Netherworld.
I see your point but I have understood that it only means reunification with a body. That is Paul 's spirit and soul are not resting with his dust but in heaven . At the trump his body will be resurrected and reunited with his soul/spirit .Paul will be with the Lord, in the air/clouds.Then we who are alive go up also to meet the Lord(and Paul). I do not think Paul’s body goes up with us , but just before.
Again, it will be already determined though it will be news for some. He does not judge then write you in the book of life. The books are opened but the book of life during the judgement of the unsaved person is more "procedura"l like rhetorical’ because they are not written in and can not be written in based on their own works.
Hi T2
Well God doesn’t need a Terrestrial paradise/ Abraham’s bosom anymore because he open up the Empyrean Heaven for man, there are levels of purgatory and Hell in the Netherworld.
The “Bosom of Abraham” was a temporary place where the souls of the righteous went (who were ultimately destined for Heaven) before the Resurrection of Jesus, because the Gates of Heaven were closed to all of them until that point in time. But, all of that changed as soon as Jesus rose from the dead. Those souls immediately went to Heaven when Jesus opened the Gate by His Resurrection. They were all waiting for the Messiah to come and do that. But, the souls of the damned were already in Hell, ever since the time of their own death. That’s because of the immediate judgement that we all face when we die.
Yes. I believe the good thief went to join all the other souls in the Bosom of Abraham that were already waiting for the Messiah. After the Resurrection, they could all go to Heaven because the Gates were finally open.
This is a description of the Final Judgement at the end of time, when the souls of the dead will all be reunited with their bodies at the general resurrection. So, “people” certainly will be cast into hell, body and soul. But, their souls were already there since their personal judgement, when they died.
It doesn’t imply that, at all. This passage is also about the resurrection of the body and Final Judgement. So, their bodies will definitely be “raised” when Jesus returns. But, the souls of all those who have died in Christ, are already with Him in Heaven. Why should anyone have to wait until the end of time to be with Jesus, when He already opened the Gates of Heaven for them?“Matthew 24: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty. [31] And he shall send his angels with a trumpet, and a great voice: and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them.”
Once again, this is referring to the Final Judgement that happens after the general resurrection, when all souls will be reunited with their bodies. Then, the righteous will go to Heaven and the condemned will be cast into Hell, forever.
Before the Resurrection of Jesus that was partly true, but only because the Gates of Heaven were sealed, and no souls could enter. That’s why there was a special place set aside for the souls of the righteous, where they still had to wait for the Messiah to open the Gates for them. But, all souls receive an immediate personal judgement at the moment of death, to determine whether their final destination will be Heaven or Hell. Once they’re judged, our souls will immediately go to their proper place.
I can understand why you would think Enoch and Elijah would be there. It’s hard to ignore the fact that they are specifically mentioned in the Bible. But, why would you ever think that the good thief would be more privileged than Mary, or the Apostles (who were also Holy Martyrs, except John)? What about all the other great prophets and holy people of the OT, or the many great Saints from the past 2000 years, who all seem much more likely to be there than the good thief?
Good stuff TThe “Bosom of Abraham” was a temporary place where the souls of the righteous went (who were ultimately destined for Heaven) before the Resurrection of Jesus, because the Gates of Heaven were closed to all of them until that point in time. But, all of that changed as soon as Jesus rose from the dead. Those souls immediately went to Heaven when Jesus opened the Gate by His Resurrection. They were all waiting for the Messiah to come and do that. But, the souls of the damned were already in Hell, ever since the time of their own death. That’s because of the immediate judgement that we all face when we die.
Yes. I believe the good thief went to join all the other souls in the Bosom of Abraham that were already waiting for the Messiah. After the Resurrection, they could all go to Heaven because the Gates were finally open.
This is a description of the Final Judgement at the end of time, when the souls of the dead will all be reunited with their bodies at the general resurrection. So, “people” certainly will be cast into hell, body and soul. But, their souls were already there since their personal judgement, when they died.
It doesn’t imply that, at all. This passage is also about the resurrection of the body and Final Judgement. So, their bodies will definitely be “raised” when Jesus returns. But, the souls of all those who have died in Christ, are already with Him in Heaven. Why should anyone have to wait until the end of time to be with Jesus, when He already opened the Gates of Heaven for them?“Matthew 24: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty. [31] And he shall send his angels with a trumpet, and a great voice: and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them.”
The angels will gather the elect “from the four winds” (on earth) and “from the farthest parts of the heavens”. How else would you interpret them being gathered from the “heavens”?
Once again, this is referring to the Final Judgement that happens after the general resurrection, when all souls will be reunited with their bodies. Then, the righteous will go to Heaven and the condemned will be cast into Hell, forever.
Before the Resurrection of Jesus that was partly true, but only because the Gates of Heaven were sealed, and no souls could enter. That’s why there was a special place set aside for the souls of the righteous, where they still had to wait for the Messiah to open the Gates for them. But, all souls receive an immediate personal judgement at the moment of death, to determine whether their final destination will be Heaven or Hell. Once they’re judged, our souls will immediately go to their proper place.
I can understand why you would think Enoch and Elijah would be there. It’s hard to ignore the fact that they are specifically mentioned in the Bible. But, why would you ever think that the good thief would be more privileged than Mary, or the Apostles (who were also Holy Martyrs, except John)? What about all the other great prophets and holy people of the OT, or the many great Saints from the past 2000 years, who all seem much more likely to be there than the good thief?
The important thing to remember is Catholics know that Mary has no real power of her own. The only reason she can do anything is because God gave her special gifts that she can use any way she wants. Whatever she does is always intended to give Him Glory, and bring more souls to Jesus. She says, “Luke 1: [46] And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. [47] And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.” She knows how little she is. That’s why God is so disarmed by her simplicity and love. Her heart is completely committed to the love of God.
You’re right. Without clear leadership and laws to guide people, there’s nothing but chaos. God knows that souls get lost in confusion.
Absolutely agreed. The Holy Spirit certainly goes wherever He wishes, but it can be much more difficult for people to discern what actually comes from Him without the special graces provided by the sacraments of the Catholic Church.
But, you know there are some people that might not hesitate to listen to that inner voice that they think is telling them to do something like that. People can be deceived into thinking it’s the Holy Spirit, when it’s actually the dude with the big hairy goat legs, that’s trying to lead them down the wrong path.
A gray exists when something isn’t’ specifically mentioned in scripture. For example, one Christian young man once told my future wife when she was a freshman in college (a year before we met), that God told him he was going to marry her. My wife replied, “Well, He hasn’t told me yet, so until He does, it ain’t happening”. I’m glad she came to that conclusion and decided to wait for me.
But, the Scriptures have never been the whole story, even in the Old Testament. God always chose certain individuals to guide His people, so they wouldn’t stray too far from the truth. He also established a religious societal structure with rules and a priesthood of different ranks, including a High Priest, to teach people what scripture meant. We have a tendency to interpret Scripture in a way that fits what we want to believe, instead of what God means.While I agree with this, it is also logical and in line with the nature of God to inspire the Gospel writers and St Paul to write down the most important things His followers are to know and do, because I believe the Bible is the ultimate God-inspired guidebook for Christians to follow and it doesn’t make sense that He would’ve left out something critical from it and say, “This was one of the other essential things I said but I only wanted it to be passed on orally through this or that Church”.
I have a hard time believing that our loving heavenly father would’ve elected to leave out critically important things from His guidebook to us, but that’s just my opinion and I realize I could be wrong. After all, I have come to realize that there is a God and I am not Him.
However, that’s where I’m at in my faith journey.
Thanks, ben.
I had to look up the term “soul sleep” to make sure I understood it correctly. Apparently, it’s mainly a belief among JWs and SDAs that souls “sleep” in an unconscious state from their time of death to the resurrection (or that they simply cease to exist and are “recreated” at the resurrection). I’m not sure if that’s what Chong was referring to, or not. I don’t think so, because he says that there were exceptions in Heaven, like the good thief.
I think God allowed those holy souls (Saints) to be seen by the living as His way of confirming to the people of Jerusalem, that Jesus was the True Messiah. Those souls had been waiting many years (even hundreds or thousands of years) for Him to come, so they could finally enter into the full bliss of Heaven and finally be with God, forever. I believe that during those days following the crucifixion, they were proclaiming to many people of Jerusalem and the whole world, that the Messiah had finally come, just as God had promised. It was a great sign from God, and that’s why it was recorded in the Gospel of Matthew 27:"[52] And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, [53] And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many. [54] Now the centurion and they that were with him watching Jesus, having seen the earthquake, and the things that were done, were sore afraid, saying: Indeed this was the Son of God."It seems that some of those holy saints also experienced their own “resurrection of the body”, which would be seen as an even greater sign from God that the resurrection will be as real for us, as it was for Jesus.
It’s quite possible that those Saints stayed on earth, spreading the news about Jesus to others, perhaps especially to members of their own families, until He ascended. Like John says, " 21: [25] But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written." There are also many other things that occurred during those early days of the Church that were not all written down, either. Those are some of the things that were only passed on orally, through the Sacred Tradition of the early Church.
You might be right about that passage, but I’m not so sure about that. Paul says, “Hebrews 9: [27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment:” This might easily be seen as a clear indication that we are judged immediately after death. He also says this, “Corinthians 5: [8] But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” This makes it sound like when we leave the body, we are present with the Lord. It makes no sense for God to prolong our judgement, since there is no ‘time’ as we know it in the spiritual realm.
So, do you think we’re all going to be piled up on top of each other in a big heap, in Heaven? :ehh:
Same, here, ben.