Question about Ireland vote on same sex marriage

[pianistclare]

Ireland may seem to be predominantly Catholic, but many of them are not practicing their faith in its fullness.

An aged Irish priest (now deceased) here in the U.S. told us that Ireland had become very materialistic.

So, how Catholic a country is depends on the intensity and sincerity of the individual Catholics who live there.

And, by the grace of God it is possible for someone who has same sex attraction to live a single and holy life. And, the same goes for heterosexual people if they cooperate with the grace of God which is available to them.

Yup. Ireland has long suffered from USA envy. They are very negatively influence by our media and our entertainment industry. My Irish husband is very saddened by the turn of events. The fall of the Euro only makes things worse. Ireland is really a failing country. Which is a shame…such a beautiful place such nice people. But totally misguided and suffering from backlash and humiliation from the clergy scandals.
The families in the Western part generally voted no. And are vilified for it.

 

[Memaw]

While I agree with you and admire the fervency and passion of your stand, the 62-38% vote margin in a predominantly Catholic country indicates that a lot of Catholics voted for the referendum for gay marriage. I am trying to better understand why would that happen in a country that is over 84% Catholic according to a Pew Survey. Does anyone have any ideas on that? That really stunned me.

I figured the referendum would fail based on the large Roman Catholic population combined with Catholic teaching on the subject, with which I agree, by the way.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

In the news piece I heard, only one district out of 43 in Ireland voted against the referendum, and that was a rural district with high church attendance. That makes me think that Ireland has sadly become very liberal and secular in its views on social issues, but that is just conjecture on my part.

Why would that surprise you when our most pro-abortion president in history was elected and re-elected by the help of a large % of the Catholic vote. Nothing surprises me anymore when it comes to Catholics voting. In my humble opinion, I think Ireland has gone downhill ever since the English took over. St. Patrick must be heartsick over this. And England has gone down hill ever since the reformation. Look what happened to France, a once so very Catholic Country… Do you remember when America used to be a very Christian country?? I do, but that seems to be a thing of the past now. God HELP us. God Bless, Memaw

 

[JimG]

Interesting point placing the impetus on “individual bishops” to resist to the point of martyrdom.

I’d like to know, who feels so strongly about it, they themselves can with conviction make the claim that they would resist any governmental interference with Church teachings to the point of martyrdom.

Idealistically I would like to say I would, but in all honesty, I’m not sure I could.

Until I could, I think it very presumptuous to expect someone else, (bishops included) to do it.

What say the room?

Interesting question. When Henry VIII took over the Church in England, only two Catholics that I can think of resisted to the point of martyrdom: Thomas More and John Fisher. All others just caved in, thereby acquiescing to the takeover of the Catholic Church and creation of the Church of England. Not a good precedent.

 

[Tommy999]

Thanks, all. Very insightful replies.

Clare, it sounds like what you mentioned about the RCC getting out of the marriage business as in Mexico may be what happens in the future in other countries as well if push comes to shove. I could see that happening in order for the RCC to not compromise its beliefs.

Thanks for sharing that, by the way. I wasn’t aware that was the case.

 

[pianistclare]

Thanks, all. Very insightful replies.

Clare, it sounds like what you mentioned about the RCC getting out of the marriage business as in Mexico may be what happens in the future in other countries as well if push comes to shove. I could see that happening in order for the RCC to not compromise its beliefs.

Thanks for sharing that, by the way. I wasn’t aware that was the case.

Good to see on the boards!
hope your family is having a restful, and enjoyable holiday weekend. We had a huge picnic at church, with a magician for the kids! He worked the history of the church into his act, LOL!
Was fantastic.
Peace friend!

 

[Ignatius]

In light of Ireland’s decision to make same sex marriage legal, does that mean that the RCC will be forced to perform same sex wedding ceremonies.

The Catholic Church (please do not use the RCC epithet as it is quite offensive, especially to those that are members of one of the other SUI JURIS Catholic Churches) cannot perform Same Sex mock wedding ceremonies. That would be sacrilegious and Catholic clergy would have to refuse no matter what the consequences.

 

[Rosebud77]

That is a good question. I hope the Catholic Church will not be forced to to perform same sex marriages in Ireland.

Is Ireland even that Catholic anymore? I am really disappointed it was such a landslide.

60 %to 40 % is not a landslide… Bear the 40% in mind. The church has done such great wrongs here that that 40% is a sheer miracle … there will be and will have to be a conscience clause here. NB the churchhere is talking about opting out of their role of certificating marriage for civil purposes so what will happen will be the same as in eg France ie the couple will have two ceremonies, one civil the second religious… no need to panic!

 

[Rosebud77]

I am relieved to hear that the RCC will not be put in a position of being forced to perform same sex weddings in Ireland because that would seem unfair for the Church to go against one of her steadfast teachings.

However, I am not familiar enough to know how far the new law will extend. I was mainly curious since Ireland is predominantly Catholic and presumably there will be homosexual Catholics who might try to push the envelope, so to speak.

There are and there will be. Check ACP if you can? The rebel priest organisation we have here for their views on this. Will be interesting too to see the response from other churches here on this one.

 

[Rosebud77]

I don’t think there as ignorant as they are scandalous. I think they are doing all this ON PURPOSE to try and destroy the Catholic Church which they will NEVER be able to do. Sad to say, they may destroy some Catholics in the battle. Let’s face it, there is a real war going on against the Catholic Church and I think its time us Catholics learn our Faith much better than we seem to know and stand strong with the Catholic Church during these terrible times. Fr. John Hardon S.J said many years ago that America is heading for real trouble and we need to be as faithful to the Church as the Early Martyrs were. Are we really willing to die for our Faith if need be?? Or would we ‘give in’ to society on many things. Catholics need to think (and PRAY) about this seriously. We may lose the Battle but guess whose going to win the WAR!! God Bless. Memaw

In Ireland the Church has done this to itself. The miracle i that there was a 40 % vote against same sex marriage. It is not an issue re knowing our Faith but of trust having been destroyed through decades of our children being abused. If we see the Church not obeying the faith? And we have done. What has emerged from the current diocesan and religious order audits is the reality of the spin we have been getting, that only 1 or 2 % of priests and religious abused children. That refereed to the convictions; and given the corruption of state and gardai on this that was very low, Now we have the actual abuse figures. I have great difficulty trusting eg the priesthood here now. Ireland is a very small and intimate country and there is no way any priest did not know what was happening. One I thought was innocent ha proved not to be. We need to face that reality and given that we are desperately short of any priests that is going to be very hard now. I came here on the eve of the abuse revelations becoming widely public thinking as you do. A safe and holy country I thought. Had that idea scotched very fast.

 

[Rosebud77]

It’s only a matter of time.

You read cases about christian bakers who have been forced to shut down or bake cakes for married same sex couples.

The Church will eventually be faced with this choice, marry same sex couples or you will be closed down and don’t think that freedom of religion laws will protect us. They are being slowly eroded away. If not in our lifetime then definitely in our children’s.

Inaccurate. You are referring to one bakery in Belfast who refused to make a cake bearing the words " support gay marriage." I assume? Yes they were fined, E500. fines and costs paid by friends. They did not close down, far from it. They need to be a little worldly wise and when this happens again say their order book are full, or staff shortages. And no the church cannot and will not be forced in that way. Remember 40 % voted NO

 

[Rosebud77]

While I agree with you and admire the fervency and passion of your stand, the 62-38% vote margin in a predominantly Catholic country indicates that a lot of Catholics voted for the referendum for gay marriage. I am trying to better understand why would that happen in a country that is over 84% Catholic according to a Pew Survey. Does anyone have any ideas on that? That really stunned me.

I figured the referendum would fail based on the large Roman Catholic population combined with Catholic teaching on the subject, with which I agree, by the way.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

In the news piece I heard, only one district out of 43 in Ireland voted against the referendum, and that was a rural district with high church attendance. That makes me think that Ireland has sadly become very liberal and secular in its views on social issues, but that is just conjecture on my part.

re your last sentence… of course this has happened because of the scale of the child abuse. The Tuam affair was the last straw for many. One lady I know who had been a daily mass advocate now is not… “What for?” she says. You damage the nations children and folk quit. The yes vote is no surprise to anyone here.

 

[Rau]

If not initially, I believe the times will soon come when the government will force the Church to perform such atrocities against Her will. It will be up to the individual bishops and bishop conferences in that country to resist to the point of martyrdom…though I hope I am being too dark and pessimistic

Don’t be ridiculous. The worst that will happen is that the Church will give up its right to perform the role of civil marriage celebrant. Catholic would then find themselves partaking in 2 processes to marry.

 

[Rosebud77]

Don’t be ridiculous. The worst that will happen is that the Church will give up its right to perform the role of civil marriage celebrant. Catholic would then find themselves partaking in 2 processes to marry.

works in eg France which rejected the Church many years ago over similar abuse issues and it will be a good thing in fact. Weddings are big here and many skip the ceremony for the party afterwards.

 

[friardchips]

I don’t think there as ignorant as they are scandalous. I think they are doing all this ON PURPOSE to try and destroy the Catholic Church which they will NEVER be able to do. Sad to say, they may destroy some Catholics in the battle. Let’s face it, there is a real war going on against the Catholic Church and I think its time us Catholics learn our Faith much better than we seem to know and stand strong with the Catholic Church during these terrible times. Fr. John Hardon S.J said many years ago that America is heading for real trouble and we need to be as faithful to the Church as the Early Martyrs were. Are we really willing to die for our Faith if need be?? Or would we ‘give in’ to society on many things. Catholics need to think (and PRAY) about this seriously. We may lose the Battle but guess whose going to win the WAR!! God Bless. Memaw

The Roman Catholic Church needs to form a contemporary Holy Crusade, in the form of intensive education, and very quickly. Not sure the New Evangelisation is big and strong enough, yet, as this needs to be a war of love, an intensive one of faith.

And because there are those who don’t respect reason, this needs to comprise of a strong loving devotion, in the form of prayers, to Our Lady. Think of Don Juan (although, his was a physical battle). This is, not the War of the Roses, but the War of the Rosary. At the heart of all this evil, all this sin - gay marriage, abortion, euthanasia etc…- is a lack of compassion, a lack of respect for life, and especially, a lack of love for the vulnerable. IOW,** PRIDE**. Fortunately, Our Lady is the protecting Mother of those who go to her - she is Advocate to her Son, especially for Christians, with a heart for the most vulnerable.

 

[friardchips]

This is, not the War of the Roses, but the War of the Rosary. .

• Just made that sound as if I thought War of the Roses was something to do with Don Juan.

 

[Rosebud77]

The Irish people will not accept or tolerate the kind of campaign you are suggesting. Not from the Church. Not any longer. One by one is how to win souls.

 

[Tommy999]

re your last sentence… of course this has happened because of the scale of the child abuse. The Tuam affair was the last straw for many. One lady I know who had been a daily mass advocate now is not… “What for?” she says. You damage the nations children and folk quit. The yes vote is no surprise to anyone here.

Thanks for clarifying, Rosebud77. I wasn’t aware of the extent of the child abuse by priests in Ireland. If it was extensive, I could see how that might affect some votes and turn them into votes against the position of the Catholic Church instead of votes *in favor of *same sex marriage.

 

[friardchips]

The Irish people will not accept or tolerate the kind of campaign you are suggesting. Not from the Church. Not any longer. One by one is how to win souls.

You mean, not tolerate a MISSION of prayer…hmm?! Isn’t it intolerance towards the Church that has caused this in the first place. By the sounds of it, intolerance is already rife.

I agree with you in that mercy and love via example (and prayer) is the way forward though. But education is lacking - educating the masses is mission. The word ‘war’ does conjur up violence and aggression, so that word is maybe not easy to relate to, and so fair enough, I agree; but it is stil a spiritual war

 

[Yeoman]

Not to mention the political parties who wanted a yes vote as well. I am especially annoyed by Taoiseach Enda Kenny who claims to be a Catholic but says he supports same sex marriage. It truly is terrible

Welcome to the American political world, in which Catholic politicians for generations now have felt free to claim loyalty to the Church while voting against its most basic tenants.

We are in a different situation than you are right now, as I don’t think your Church hierarchy, given the abuse scandals, is an a position to act for the time being, but here we’ve basically let this occur with very little to no criticism of a serious nature from either the ambo or the pews. So now we find ourselves in a situation in which we’ve lost so much that a “Catholic” politician can pretty much claim to be for darned near anything and still to to Mass on Sunday.

 

[pianistclare]

Education.
The Church in Ireland does little, VERY little to educate it’s youth in the faith. It’s been assumed for decades that the faithful will show up and follow church teaching based on a once a week homily.
Until the Church in Ireland places an emphasis on educating the faithful, particularly the young people, they can’t be too surprised that secularism came in and stole the faith of a nation right from under their noses.
It’s the same thing that happens here, although parents here see no need for religious ed. Not when soccer beckons. Or ballet classes, or Lacrosse. Or Scouting.
People have their priorities out of whack They are content to allow celebrities and the media teach their children, then decry the outcome after the fact.
Wake up people! Everyone is responsible for this.
:twocents: