Question about John 3:5 & salvation

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Again, this has nothing to do with “sola scriptura.”
It has everything to do with sola scriptura because the churches that don’t depend on scripture alone have no such difficulties in understanding the faith in regards to baptism or other doctrines; they don’t depend on private interpretation, sweating over the details of a single verse that was never intended to convey in perfect clarity what you insist it must. Scripture, by its own admission, can be unclear. But you assign to Scripture the role that God established His *Church *to play.
 
Just to let you know, I’m a former Catholic, so I’m aware of all those passages, like Acts 22:16, etc. But upon examining those texts - especially in the original Greek - & comparing them to the surrounding passages, & cross-referencing them with other Scripture verses & passages, they don’t actually support water baptismal salvation. But the reason I am focusing my question on John 3:5 is because even a “single” passage (actually 2 passages - John 3:5,7), is God-breathed Scripture. Therefore, since Jesus is using EXCLUSIVE language in these two passages (“unless,” “cannot,” “must”) then if Jesus is saying that the water refers to the waters of baptism, as do passages like Acts 22:16), then Jesus - and these other passages as well - are saying that water baptism in the ONLY way to "enter the kingdom of God’ based
on Jesus’ EXCLUSIVE words. So, my question is "how’ do those who are not baptized in water “enter the kingdom of God” based on Jesus’ EXCLUSIVE words? This is what I keep asking that no one is answering without contradicting the interpretation of Jesus’ words to refer to the waters of baptism.Then you must be reading your own interpretations into them because it’s right there in plain English and has been the teaching in Christianity for 2,000 years and is well documented in the writings of the Early Church Fathers. If your opinions diverse from theirs then I would say that you are far removed from the source (the apostles) and might benefit from looking into the ECF.
I am also awaiting a reply from a moderator to allow me to answer direct requests from posters who are asking me
to explain my “opinion” about what the “water” actually refers to, based on Scripture. So far, I have not received a response, & now I’m getting ridicule & slurs & slanderous remarks from “some” posters, because they “think” I’m refusing to answer their questions, rather than trying to be obedient to forum rules.🤷 I see nothing in that that makes me think that your response might be problematic, but I still haven’t seem any “ridicule & slurs & slanderous remarks” so far in this thread and I certainly have not done so.
Are you a moderator?
Nope. Mods here on CAF don’t post.
Can “you” give me permission to respond with “my opinion” even if it contradicts “official Catholic beliefs” of what the “water” refers to, even if I provide relevant Scripture to back it up? If not, “who” can give me this permission? Who should I ask? I’ve already inquired “Ask An Apologist,” but so far, no response.
I can offer no permissions, but having been here on CAF almost from its beginning I can tell you that your opinion is fine so long as it is expressed without polemics or contempt for our faith or disrespect to us as Catholics. Remember that you are in our “online home” and no one welcomes a rude or unruly guest into their home.

I can also assure you that your question in Ask An Apologist will go unanswered because they are staff apologists and not mods or admins and so they don’t address such things. You can PM the mod for this forum, which is Michael Francis and expect a response since he’s on pretty regularly all through the day.

He’s been a mod here for a long time and handles this forum and Apologetics. 🙂
 
As a former Catholic, I understand what “baptism by desire” & “baptized of blood” mean. What I’m asking is that since Jesus is using EXCLUSIVE words (“Unless,” “cannot,” “must”) in John 3:5,7, then Jesus is saying THAT is the ONLY way to enter Heaven. So, “if” Jesus is referring to water baptism, then “how” can these UNbaptized people enter Heaven, without contradicting the EXCLUSIVE words of Jesus in these verses? Do you understand my question?
Yes, I understand your question. I’ll see if I can find the excellent article about baptism of desire that I once read, which should answer your question, okay? What I can tell you now is that although baptism of desire and of blood are not sacramental, they still do produce the same EFFECT as sacramental baptism with water. God bless you.
 
I’m afraid I no longer have access the excellent article about baptism of desire that I wanted you to read. I can give you a good priest’s phone number if you wish to get a very good answer to your question. You may PM me if you wish, okay?
 
I agree with you that Jesus would be “lying” based on the fact that Jesus is using exclusive words. But that only applies “If” the water refers to the waters of baptism, & even Filmer’s response doesn’t really address the problem or my question in my OP.
:hmmm: Interesting, since I thought it really does directly answer your question! Let’s try again…

You said, “When I was being raised Catholic, I was taught that the water refers to the waters of baptism.” There’s a problem here, right from the beginning. We weren’t there to hear what you were taught. Perhaps you mis-remember what you were taught; perhaps you remember it correctly, but had misinterpreted what you were taught; perhaps you interpreted it correctly, but mis-heard what you were taught; perhaps you heard it correctly, but your teacher mis-spoke or was mistaken. All we can hope to do here is answer the particular question that you’re asking now: does the reference to ‘water’ in John 3:5 refer – in an exclusive sense, not admitting to any other interpretation – to the ‘waters of baptism’?

You seem to suggest that Cardinal Arinze, in the YouTube clip you linked, is saying ‘yes’. However, he does not seem to say that. Rather, in the context of answering a question on the necessity of the sacraments, he affirms that this verse can be applied to baptism. So, I don’t think that his statement helps us, one way or the other; clearly, John 3:5 can be interpreted as referring to baptism – but, can it only be interpreted this way? More to the point, is the ‘water’ an exclusive reference to the water of baptism?

My answer is ‘no’. Water is one of the necessary physical signs of baptism, but it’s not the case that every time we see water, we conclude ‘baptism’. Sometimes, it’s a sign of a swimming pool, or of a bowl of soup. Similarly, water is that sign by which we recognize the being ‘born from above of water and the Spirit’, but that rebirth is spiritual, not physical. Therefore, to assert that the reference to water can only mean ‘the water of baptism’ is an error of logic.

Your assertion, based on the Greek, also seems to be in error. Your reference to “exclusive wording” (ἐὰν μή (‘except’), Δεῖ (‘necessary’)) speaks to the effect, not the form of the “being born from above.” The Church teaches that the ordinary means of this rebirth is the sacrament of baptism, but that other means exist.

So, I’m sorry: either there was a mistake of some sort in the context of what you were taught as a child, or someone went above and beyond the teaching of the Church in emphasizing the waters of baptism and their application to John 3:5. 🤷
 
Why would you need that since we know that there is nothing in either Catholic teaching or in Scripture that says it cannot be. After all “With God all things are possible.”🤷
They’re not, but what you take as slander etc seems to be a very subjective interpretation. Just because a Catholic has been very frank with you does not mean what you seem to think offensive.

Sadly, it cuts both ways and we are routinely accosted here by n-Cs who not only argue against our faith, but deride it and openly seek to proselytize us away. in reading through this thread, I have seen nothing that violates the rules and guidelines found at this link .
Oh for Pete’s sake…:rolleyes: it seems to me that you are just looking for offense whether one is intended or not.

If you find a post that actually breaks a rule then report it and cite the rule.

However, I suggest that you drop comments as to infractions and bans since that definitely does violate the rules which plainly state,“Judgments by the Moderators can be discussed with the Moderators via private messaging but not on the board itself. Decisions of the Moderators may be appealed to the Administrator.”
My issue with this particular poster has nothing to do with “arguing against the faith” or one’s “interpretation” of the text. It has to do with the specific personal attacks towards me & my faith used, such as “hiding in a private interpretation cult,” “pathetic,” “weak minded self professing,” as well as other personal attacks. Here is the original link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12614111&postcount=86

And, I checked out the forum rules. These kinds of “Blatantly disrespectful characterization of any faith” are covered under “Banned Topics” in the forum rules (#7):

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2363920&postcount=9

I also notified this incident to a forum moderator, but I haven’t heard back yet to see if anything is being done about it, but I haven’t heard anything. However, I find it troubling that I might receive an infraction for reporting a post that qualifies for an infraction, which apparently nothing is being done about. So, it does sound that the “rules” are different for non-catholics in following forum rules than for Catholics. 😦
 
Well taz are you still a man when you die, nope. Therefore your limitation has expired upon death of the body.And you can’t worm your way out cause Jesus said man specifically.
When one dies these cease being a man, therefore the limitation that you thetazlord have placed on this scripture does not apply. So all the other answers regarding baptism of desire and such apply.
 
No, I don’t “deny” that God can do all things. But what we have to understand, Scripturally, about God, there are things God “can’t do,” such as lie or speak a name above Himself, which Scripture even states. So, God can “do anything” that does not violate His character, which would include lying. So, since Jesus said that you MUST be born again/born of water & the Spirit, then He’s saying that is the ONLY way to “enter the kingdom of God.” So, since Jesus is God, & God cannot like, then God/Jesus cannot allow those who are not “born again/born of water & the Spirit” to “enter the kingdom of God.” So, "if’ the water refers to the waters of baptism, then God/Jesus cannot let ANY UNbaptized people into Heaven, otherwise, God/Jesus would be lying, which would violate His character. So, please don’t accuse me of things that I don’t believe.
I clearly said at the point of death, remember, one millisecond before death, you even quoted it in your next response. You obviously find that this is possible and answers your original question. But you don’t seem to want to have your question answered by a Catholic.
To be honest you have never had a genuine question because according to you,
you already had your answer before you even started this thread.
So why not be honest and stop saying you have a question
when all you are trying to trumpet out is that you have an answer that you
find satisfying to your personal beliefs.

(Edited)
 
My issue with this particular poster has nothing to do with “arguing against the faith” or one’s “interpretation” of the text. It has to do with the specific personal attacks towards me & my faith used, such as “hiding in a private interpretation cult,” “pathetic,” “weak minded self professing,” as well as other personal attacks. Here is the original link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12614111&postcount=86

And, I checked out the forum rules. These kinds of “Blatantly disrespectful characterization of any faith” are covered under “Banned Topics” in the forum rules (#7):

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2363920&postcount=9

I also notified this incident to a forum moderator, but I haven’t heard back yet to see if anything is being done about it, but I haven’t heard anything. However, I find it troubling that I might receive an infraction for reporting a post that qualifies for an infraction, which apparently nothing is being done about. So, it does sound that the “rules” are different for non-catholics in following forum rules than for Catholics. 😦
Your question has been answered multiple times. At this point you’re just trolling…
 
My issue with this particular poster has nothing to do with “arguing against the faith” or one’s “interpretation” of the text. It has to do with the specific personal attacks towards me & my faith used, such as “hiding in a private interpretation cult,” “pathetic,” “weak minded self professing,” as well as other personal attacks. Here is the original link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12614111&postcount=86

And, I checked out the forum rules. These kinds of “Blatantly disrespectful characterization of any faith” are covered under “Banned Topics” in the forum rules (#7):

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2363920&postcount=9

I also notified this incident to a forum moderator, but I haven’t heard back yet to see if anything is being done about it, but I haven’t heard anything. However, I find it troubling that I might receive an infraction for reporting a post that qualifies for an infraction, which apparently nothing is being done about. So, it does sound that the “rules” are different for non-catholics in following forum rules than for Catholics. 😦
Can you point out exactly from that post were I claimed that YOU WERE those things as you claim, I simply stated that I WAS NOT those things. I can’t be held responsible if you
recognise things and associate them to yourself. Just as I could do, by saying that you labelled me “Pathetic”.

But I’m not here looking to cry victim of discrimination. I’m here to try and defend MY FAITH… could it be that I answered your question and you just don’t want a Catholic to give you the answer?
 
thetazlord.

You said:
First, I haven’t stated what “I think” the water refers to.
I didn’t say anything like this. I specifically stated quite the opposite:

Here is (again) what I said:
I am not focusing upon “what you think” John 3:5 is. . . . .

I am addressing what you’re DENYING John 3:5 is—baptism.
And I stated this in my response that YOU quoted!

Look at my post. Look at your own post.

My post.

Your post.

Are you “trolling” thetazlord? Why are you saying things I didn’t say? What’s going on here?

You also said:
Rather, I’m asking a question about “how” an unbaptized person can enter Heaven, based on the EXCLUSIVE words of our Savior in John 3:5,7.
And I answered that too. It IS “exclusive”. But it is “exclusive" for us, not for God.

Jesus isn’t making an observation here in John 3:5.

Jesus IS giving mankind a commandment!

Jesus is not giving Himself a commandment.
-JOHN 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say TO YOU, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.​

This is what Jesus says TO US.

This is what WE are to do.

This is how WE are to respond.

This is what WE are called to (all by the grace of God).

John 3:5 is NOT concerning what God MAY do. This is NOT God giving commandments to Himself.
-CCC 1257c . . . God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.​

YOU must be born of water and the Spirit is just that. It is for “YOU” (us—the people).

This commandment is NOT for God. God can go outside of this.

John 3:5 does NOT say: “I God can only save you by water and the Spirit.”

No. God CAN bypass that. And He has bypassed that in the Old Testament Saints for example.

You keep asking the same thing over and over despite having clear answers.

Might I suggest re-reading the relevant posts.
So, what I’m asking, which your post didn’t actually address, is that since Jesus is using EXCLUSIVE wording “how” to enter Heaven, that if He’s referring to water baptism, then “how” can these UNbaptized people enter Heaven without being baptized in water. This is what I’m asking.
The only thing worse than “beating a dead horse” is “beating the wrong dead horse” thetazlord.

You are attempting (hopefully unwittingly) a shell game here (and have been called on it).

You ask about what WE are commanded to do, then you insert what God MAY do, and claim “contradiction”.

That is the shell game. That is “moving the goal posts”. (Nobody here is falling for this thetazlord)

This (below) seems to be what you are trying to get the verse to say (but it doesn’t) . . .
  • NOT JOHN 3:5 (thetazlord phantom verse) Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to Me, I AM binding MYSELF to ONLY this instance, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
But that’s NOT what the verse says thetazlord. The verse is addressed to US.

“Truly, truly I say TO YOU . . .”

I affirm this “exclusivity”.

The Church affirms this “exclusivity” (I’ve already shown you where).

I affirm this “exclusivity” but it concerns ME. It concerns mankind. It does NOT concern God.

I already showed you above the CCC quote that teaches this. (You can see it again here, here, and with associated teachings here)

The verse does not say this concerns God. The verse specifically says this verse concerns us—and we affirm it. You, by denying “water and the Spirit” here, do not affirm it.

You are going to ask: “Well HOW does God do this (“save outside of His Sacraments”)?”

I don’t know HOW God does it—but God does it (in the circumstances I have outlined for you elsewhere).

The command is for you and I. We MUST be born of water and the Spirit. This command is for us—not for God.

See this post again:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12615056&postcount=94
 
So, was the UNbaptized thief on the cross that Jesus promised “Paradise/Heaven.” So, based on the “water” in John 3:5 referring to the water of baptism, how did “he” get into Heaven?

That’s not what I’m asking in the OP. What I asked was that since the “belief” that the “water” in John 3:5 refers to the waters of baptism, & since Jesus is using EXCLUSIVE wording (“Unless,” “cannot,” & “must” in John 3:7) then “how” can UNbaptized people - like the UNbaptized thief - enter Heaven without being baptized in water, & without contradicting that interpretation that the “water” refers to the waters of baptism, as well as Jesus EXCLUSIVE words? This “exceptions” would contradict the interpretation of “water” to refer to the waters of baptism:

“UNLESS one is born of water [baptized in water] & the Spirit, he CANNOT enter the kingdom of God”
“You MUST be born again [baptized in water]”
Since you appear to know the answer, why don’t you just tell us how did the good thief get his water baptism?

So for the 3rd time, is John’s (the Baptist) baptism effective or not? He baptized with water but not the Holy Spirit. Let us look at both Water AND Spirit and not just water. Jesus didn’t baptize his 12 apostles as far as I can make out. John the Baptist did water baptism to at least some of them. Jesus didn’t baptized the apostles with the Holy Spirit although he at a later stage breathed on them. Does that count as baptism with the HS in your books?
If you read through what I wrote above, it should answer your question, if you’re understanding what I’m actually asking.
I am sorry, I don’t know YOUR answer. I asked you how do you get all 4 types of baptisms to be all true. You didn’t answer but ask me to guess your answer in your head.
That’s a nice “theory,” but neither Scripture nor the Catholic church teaches that. Plus, Scripture, as well as the Catholic church, teaches that a person gets baptized while they are still alive - not after the die. Plus, water is a physical substance, when we die, our souls that are immaterial - not our bodies - enter Heaven. So, even “if” what you are saying could happen, how could a physical substance “baptize” & cleanse an immaterial soul? Sorry, but your “theory” is unfounded by nearly 2,000 years of Catholic “tradition” as well unscriptural. Plus, it doesn’t address the OP at all.
I didn’t say it is fact, just could be. I am making a point that you can not reject that God can effect water baptism in other ways if he so wished. I am just suggesting a possible way.

Lastly, what is your definition of water baptism? We didn’t define it, what are its attributes. Without common agreement what it is, we can never have a sensible discussion. Perhaps what you think it is is not what we think it is.

I thank you for your patience to slog this thing out with us.
 
Thetazlord, you said:
AndrewW94, out of everyone who has replied, yours is undeniably the one that has given the most though. So, I commend you for that. However, it still doesn’t address the fact that in John 3:7, Jesus states:
“You MUST be born again.”
The reason I didn’t specifically mention that phrase was because I thought my interpretation could be infered from what I wrote. Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he MUST be born again. I agree. Nicodemus MUST be born again.

You yourself said:
“So, if water baptism is what Jesus meant, then Jesus is saying a person MUST be baptized in water to enter Heaven, since the Greek word for “must” in John 3:7 means “required” nor “normative.””

Both of these, and especially normative, are in line with Church teaching. This verse is giving a command for us to obey. This is the only ordinary means we are given to enter heaven (in the active sense, see my previous post). **Jesus is giving a directive. He is not saying “God cannot bring anyone into Heaven except by the person performing this act.” He is saying: “If you want to get to Heaven, you must perform this act.” Do you see the difference, even if you do not agree with my interpretation of the verse? **
 
Since you appear to know the answer, why don’t you just tell us how did the good thief get his water baptism?
I don’t think that this is theta’s assertion at all. Rather, it seems that he’s asserting that John 3:5 isn’t about water baptism in any way, shape or form; instead, it’s about being “born again”, which (I’m assuming he’d claim) is accomplished without the sacramental action of a baptism with real effects.

At least, that’s the impression I get, reading through his questions and challenges. 🤷
 
Thetazlord in #107: “you’re trusting the “opinion” of someone who lived NINETEEN CENTURIES after the Gospels were penned that ALL of the Gospels were “originally” written in Hebrew?? …. which there is ZERO evidence for outside of Tresmontant’s “opinion”
On the contrary, in 1982, Dom Bernard Orchard, O.S.B., alerted Catholics to the dangers of false scholarship, as English scholar John Beaumont has recalled in an article (“Kulturkampf and the Gospel”) in “Culture Wars”, Dec 1996:

“In practice, this has meant that they deny that the Apostle St. Matthew could have published his own Gospel; and this, in turn, amounts to saying that all the Church Fathers and early Councils erred on a matter of fact in saying St. Matthew wrote his own Gospel. In other words, the modern biblical ‘authorities’ are committed to denying that the Church has accurately transmitted the true tradition regarding the authorship of the Gospels.”

It is generally accepted by scholars that Luke and Matthew used the works of Mark and Q as sources for their gospels. Likewise, it is generally accepted that all three gospels were written originally in Greek, with the possibility of Aramaic as well. The authors of the book Understanding the Difficult Words of Jesus, in their research, show that those positions may not be right.

Bivin and Blizzard relate research by Dr. Robert L. Lindsey as to the history of the synoptic gospels. Within five years after the death of Jesus, a biographer (believed to be Matthew) recorded the story of Jesus in Hebrew. At once, there was a demand in the Greek-speaking churches for a translation of the biography into Greek. A very literal translation was made. A few years later, stories and parts of stories were removed and arranged topically. Shortly after, a Greek author tried to reconstruct the story. Luke used the latter two of these records as his sources. Mark used Luke’s work and the topically-arranged Greek as his sources. Matthew used Mark’s work and the topically-arranged Greek as his sources. The current gospel may have been written by someone other than the Matthew who is believed to have written the original biography.

Thus, if this is correct, the original writing was composed in Hebrew, not Greek, or even Aramaic. The authors, throughout their book, present evidence to support their position. Statistics are quoted to show that over 90% of the Bible, including Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, was written in Hebrew, with about 1% in Aramaic, and the rest in Greek. If Bivin and Blizzard are right, there needs to be a change in thinking about the origin of the synoptic gospels and the resultant translations. They quote from Eusebius in Ecclesiastical History, giving evidence that it was known in his day that Matthew wrote his Gospel in Hebrew. Eusebius himself had quoted other writers, Papias (Book III, Chapter 39, page 127), Irenæus (Book V, Chapter 8, page 187), Origen (Book VI, Chapter 25, page 245), and Eusebius himself (Book III, Chapter 24, page 108).
ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/NEWBOOK.TXT

Then, Thetazlord in #110 asks again what he has asked multiple times: “how” can these UNbaptized people enter Heaven without being baptized in water, while admitting over and over that he was formerly a “Catholic”.

The question he refuses to face is why Jesus should found His own Church on St Peter as His Chief Vicar with the other Apostles with the power and His authority for “teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you…” [Matt 28:20], while he chooses to ignore Christ and His Church teaching through Christ’s Magisterium, for his own feelings, ignoring still that “Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.” [CCC #1260].
 
When one dies these cease being a man, therefore the limitation that you thetazlord have placed on this scripture does not apply. So all the other answers regarding baptism of desire and such apply.
I’m not the one putting on the limitation - JESUS is. JESUS is the One Who said a person CAN’T enter the kingdom of God UNLESS he is born of water & the Spirit. JESUS also stated you MUST be born again. So, since “born again” is the same thing as “born of water & the Spirit” (John 3:3,5), & since you believe the “water” refers to the waters of baptism, & since NOWHERE in Scripture nor Church history has anyone ever said that a person can be baptized in water after death, then please explain to me “how” an UNbaptized person can “enter the kingdom of God” without being baptized in water and without contradicting the words of Jesus (“unless,” “cannot,” “must”) in John 3:5,7.
 
:hmmm: Interesting, since I thought it really does directly answer your question! Let’s try again…

You said, “When I was being raised Catholic, I was taught that the water refers to the waters of baptism.” There’s a problem here, right from the beginning. We weren’t there to hear what you were taught. Perhaps you mis-remember what you were taught; perhaps you remember it correctly, but had misinterpreted what you were taught; perhaps you interpreted it correctly, but mis-heard what you were taught; perhaps you heard it correctly, but your teacher mis-spoke or was mistaken. All we can hope to do here is answer the particular question that you’re asking now: does the reference to ‘water’ in John 3:5 refer – in an exclusive sense, not admitting to any other interpretation – to the ‘waters of baptism’?

You seem to suggest that Cardinal Arinze, in the YouTube clip you linked, is saying ‘yes’. However, he does not seem to say that. Rather, in the context of answering a question on the necessity of the sacraments, he affirms that this verse can be applied to baptism. So, I don’t think that his statement helps us, one way or the other; clearly, John 3:5 can be interpreted as referring to baptism – but, can it only be interpreted this way? More to the point, is the ‘water’ an exclusive reference to the water of baptism?

My answer is ‘no’. Water is one of the necessary physical signs of baptism, but it’s not the case that every time we see water, we conclude ‘baptism’. Sometimes, it’s a sign of a swimming pool, or of a bowl of soup. Similarly, water is that sign by which we recognize the being ‘born from above of water and the Spirit’, but that rebirth is spiritual, not physical. Therefore, to assert that the reference to water can only mean ‘the water of baptism’ is an error of logic.

Your assertion, based on the Greek, also seems to be in error. Your reference to “exclusive wording” (ἐὰν μή (‘except’), Δεῖ (‘necessary’)) speaks to the effect, not the form of the “being born from above.” The Church teaches that the ordinary means of this rebirth is the sacrament of baptism, but that other means exist.

So, I’m sorry: either there was a mistake of some sort in the context of what you were taught as a child, or someone went above and beyond the teaching of the Church in emphasizing the waters of baptism and their application to John 3:5. 🤷
No, I was specifically taught in my Catechism that the “water” in John 3:5 refers to the waters of baptism. There was no “mis-remembering” of it. I specifically remember that, because my former parish used that passage as “proof” for the “necessity” of water baptism. And you might want to rewatch that video on Cardinal Arinze, because he specifically reworded John 3:5 stating “you must be baptized of water & the Spirit or you cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven.” If you don’t believe me, go back & watch it yourself. The link is in my OP. The reason that it’s an “exclusive” statement isn’t because Cardinal Arinze believes it’s exclusive, but because of the exclusive words JESUS uses (“unless,” “cannot,” “must”) in John 3:5,7. I’m noticing that Catholics are having a really hard time grasping “why” these are exclusive passages. It’s really not that hard to understand if you read them. Perhaps the whole “necessary” doesn’t mean “absolutely necessary,” but “normative” argument that I see made so frequently is preventing you from seeing this. But that argument is baseless, because in Greek these words (“unless,” “cannot,” & especially “must”) are exclusive words. In fact, “must” means “required,” not “normative.”

And I understand what the Catholic church teaches, but that’s not what I’m addressing. I’m addressing that the text of John 3:5,7 states that being born of water & the Spirit is the ONLY way to enter Heaven. So, my question is based on the text of John 3:5,7 based on the Greek, which I am yet to receive an answer.
 
On the contrary, in 1982, Dom Bernard Orchard, O.S.B., alerted Catholics to the dangers of false scholarship, as English scholar John Beaumont has recalled in an article (“Kulturkampf and the Gospel”) in “Culture Wars”, Dec 1996:

“In practice, this has meant that they deny that the Apostle St. Matthew could have published his own Gospel; and this, in turn, amounts to saying that all the Church Fathers and early Councils erred on a matter of fact in saying St. Matthew wrote his own Gospel. In other words, the modern biblical ‘authorities’ are committed to denying that the Church has accurately transmitted the true tradition regarding the authorship of the Gospels.”

It is generally accepted by scholars that Luke and Matthew used the works of Mark and Q as sources for their gospels. Likewise, it is generally accepted that all three gospels were written originally in Greek, with the possibility of Aramaic as well. The authors of the book Understanding the Difficult Words of Jesus, in their research, show that those positions may not be right.

Bivin and Blizzard relate research by Dr. Robert L. Lindsey as to the history of the synoptic gospels. Within five years after the death of Jesus, a biographer (believed to be Matthew) recorded the story of Jesus in Hebrew. At once, there was a demand in the Greek-speaking churches for a translation of the biography into Greek. A very literal translation was made. A few years later, stories and parts of stories were removed and arranged topically. Shortly after, a Greek author tried to reconstruct the story. Luke used the latter two of these records as his sources. Mark used Luke’s work and the topically-arranged Greek as his sources. Matthew used Mark’s work and the topically-arranged Greek as his sources. The current gospel may have been written by someone other than the Matthew who is believed to have written the original biography.

Thus, if this is correct, the original writing was composed in Hebrew, not Greek, or even Aramaic. The authors, throughout their book, present evidence to support their position. Statistics are quoted to show that over 90% of the Bible, including Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, was written in Hebrew, with about 1% in Aramaic, and the rest in Greek. If Bivin and Blizzard are right, there needs to be a change in thinking about the origin of the synoptic gospels and the resultant translations. They quote from Eusebius in Ecclesiastical History, giving evidence that it was known in his day that Matthew wrote his Gospel in Hebrew. Eusebius himself had quoted other writers, Papias (Book III, Chapter 39, page 127), Irenæus (Book V, Chapter 8, page 187), Origen (Book VI, Chapter 25, page 245), and Eusebius himself (Book III, Chapter 24, page 108).
ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/NEWBOOK.TXT

Then, Thetazlord in #110 asks again what he has asked multiple times: “how” can these UNbaptized people enter Heaven without being baptized in water, while admitting over and over that he was formerly a “Catholic”.

The question he refuses to face is why Jesus should found His own Church on St Peter as His Chief Vicar with the other Apostles with the power and His authority for “teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you…” [Matt 28:20], while he chooses to ignore Christ and His Church teaching through Christ’s Magisterium, for his own feelings, ignoring still that “Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.” [CCC #1260].
The first part of response is really a Red Herring & irrelevant to the OP, & really belongs on another thread. So, to prevent a split, I’m going to prevent from commenting further. But you are incorrect that Church has historically believed that the Gospels were originally written in Hebrew. In fact, most of the time when the NT quotes the OT, they quote the Septuagint - which was in Greek - not Hebrew or Aramaic, something Catholics like to point out for other unrelated reasons. And there was no “Q” document. That would contradict independent testimonies of the four Gospel accounts. And John’s Gospel is written quite different than the Synoptics, yet still harmonizes with them beautifully. I’m afraid a lot of your comments, you are on your own.

BTW, I noticed that you still haven’t addressed my question that I’ve asked “multiple times,” but rather created a Red Herring about the authority of the Catholic church, which I’m not going to respond to. So, how about actually “addressing” my question - and in context - to what I’ve asked. Because so far, I’ve gotten zilch in 10 pages of responses. Only strawmans & Red Herrings. Care to give it a try?
 
Can you point out exactly from that post were I claimed that YOU WERE those things as you claim, I simply stated that I WAS NOT those things. I can’t be held responsible if you
recognise things and associate them to yourself. Just as I could do, by saying that you labelled me “Pathetic”.

But I’m not here looking to cry victim of discrimination. I’m here to try and defend MY FAITH… could it be that I answered your question and you just don’t want a Catholic to give you the answer?
Seriously? I provided the actual link, & even quoted some of the slanderous statements you made about me & my faith - word-for-word - and you still can’t see it? Here is the link again. Read over it SLOWLY, & “maybe” you might get it:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12614111&postcount=86

BTW, I still haven’t gotten permission from a moderator to post “my opinion” about what the “water” actually is referring to in John 3:5, in case you were wondering.
 
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