Question about Mathew 18:19 and the saints

[in_servitude]

What make it easy for the evil one as you like to call him is people not understanding the authority given to them by God.

I’m not sure where you get this. I’ll assume the bible, so can you point to a place where it says this?

I was not saying that you should not ask christian to pray with you or to agree with you in your prayer needs that is too different matter.

You agree that I can ask a living Christian to pray for me. What is the problem with asking a dead Christian to pray for me? (One that is in Heaven, no less.)

If you need prayer and you ask your friend to pray with you to any Saint so that this saint may intercede for you that is not necessary give your prayer directly to God just as Jesus told you to do.

Where does it say, “Don’t ask others to pray for you.”?

Believe in His words

Yeah, this annoys me. I do believe in His words, obviously. We disagree on some interpretation of scripture, I suspect. Since I disagree with you, and then you say, “Believe in His words,” you imply that your interpretation is somehow free from error.

Where are His words that say, “Don’t ask Saints to pray for you.”???

 

[pablope]

I’m not sure where you get this. I’ll assume the bible, so can you point to a place where it says this?

Where does it say, “Don’t ask others to pray for you.”?

Yeah, this annoys me. I do believe in His words, obviously. We disagree on some interpretation of scripture, I suspect. Since I disagree with you, and then you say, “Believe in His words,” you imply that your interpretation is somehow free from error.

**Where are His words that say, “Don’t ask Saints to pray for you.”???/**QUOTE]

I ask the same question is post 17…

Is it prohibited?

Here in Job 42…7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the LORD told them; and the LORD accepted Job’s prayer.

10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before.

So my question to you…why does God tell Eliphaz to go through Job? Why not just grant it directly?

 

[Erich]

why would you pray to anyone but the Father, Grace come from the Father through Jesus to you, when you pray believe that you have received. Jesus said when you ask in My name not the Saints in My name.

Solo Christo is the belief that Christ is the sole Mediator, that no one else can act as a mediator. Solo Christo is incorrect because people can pray for others, and prayer is a form of mediation (1 Timothy 2:1-2, Hebrews 7:25). If Solo Christo is correct, than no one can pray for others.

You agree that I can ask a living Christian to pray for me. What is the problem with asking a dead Christian to pray for me? (One that is in Heaven, no less.)

Matthew 22:
31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Someone who is in Heaven is not dead!

 

[in_servitude]

So my question to you…why does God tell Eliphaz to go through Job? Why not just grant it directly?

OK - I’m not sure if I understand your question. But, I ask for the help of the Saints all the time, and I am not sure why people would say that this is a problem. I am sure, however, that I get great assistance from them - and life would be very different for me without the help.

 

[in_servitude]

Someone in Heaven is not dead!

OK, I’ll grant you that. I’m trying to make the point that I don’t see the difference between asking a someone who is on this side of the veil or on the other side. How would you prefer I ask that question?

 

[pablope]

OK - I’m not sure if I understand your question. But, I ask for the help of the Saints all the time, and I am not sure why people would say that this is a problem. I am sure, however, that I get great assistance from them - and life would be very different for me without the help.

Hi, In…s…sorry, the question was for mich38638…sorry for the mishap…

 

[horazy]

The Saints work continues in Heaven, after their death. Angels do work on earth, we know this from scripture. Saints are equal to the angels in Heaven, so one would assume that their work continues on earth even though they have passed on.

The Saints were people on earth who worked to build up the Church. Jesus wouldn’t just say to them in Heaven, hey you Saints, stop working to build up my Church.

A Saint has the privelege to continue work on the earth even though they have died. They may not do grand things but I believe them to work small miracles.

God is everywhere at the same time. He hears the prayers and groans of everyone at the same time and when I pray to God I have His full attention. Thousands of prayers go to a particular saint on any given day. Does a saint hear each individual prayer at the same time like God does? Does a saint petition God for my particular need or just pray for the Church as a whole? We do not have the same power of God on this side of heaven. So do saints in heaven receive some kind of power that is greater then what they had on this side of heaven? It is sad that saints don’t receive peace and rest from the cares of the world. Does the Rest only come after the Resurrection?

 

[TimothyH]

I am a Protestant, but I must insist that Matthew 18:19 itself is not a restriction upon praying to saints in heaven, because that is not the subject Jesus is talking about here. He was talking about what God will do for those who agree in prayer on earth, not what God won’t do for those who pray but are not on the earth.

In a light hearted but still serious example, when the Apollo mission to the moon got into such trouble (they made a movie out of it) I’m sure that the astronauts prayed, but just because they weren’t on earth doesn’t mean God didn’t grant their request!

You are correct that praying to saints is not Jesus’ subject. The two people agreeing in prayer however, are not just any people, but the leadership of the Church. The verse in question is about the authority of the Church to bind and loose.

The entire theme of Matthew’s gospel is Jesus establishing his Kingdom. Matthews Gospel is actually made up of five sub-books with a prologue and conclusion as follows:

• Chapters 1- 2: Prologue
• Chapters 3 - 7: Announcement of the Kingdom
• Chapters 8-10: Establishment of the Kingdom
• Chapters 11-13: The Kingdom Defined
• Chapters 14-18: Transfer of the Kingdom’s Authority
• Chapters 19 - 25: Announcement of the End of the Old Kingdom.
• Chapters 26-28: Conclusion

Matthew included two sections in each of the sub-books listed above. Each sub-book contains a narrative story about what Jesus did and where he went, followed by a discourse or talk by Jesus. This pattern of narrative followed by discourse repeats itself five times as we go through the five sub-books of Matthew’s Gospel and the entire theme of Matthew’s Gospel is the King and the establishment of His Kingdom.

The verse in question is from the 18th chapter of Matthew’s gospel which is Jesus’ discourse about the transfer of the Kindom’s authority from the priests and pharisees of the Old Testament to the Apostles of the New Testament. Jesus was asked about his Kingdom’s authority at the beginning of this chapter when his disciples asked who was the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. This is the lauching point for Jesus discourse and the passage is clearly about Jesus’ Kingdom - Jesus’ Church, and its authority.

*17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
**18 **Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19 l Again, [amen,] I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
(Matthew 18:17-20) *

You are correct that the verse in question has nothing to do with praying to saints, but it is incorrect to interpret the passage as being about any two people agreeing to something in prayer. The context of the passage makes it clear that Jesus is talking about the Church’s ability to discipline, adressing a situation where a sinner refuses to listen to correction and the matter being taken to the authority of the Church.

As part of Matthew’s fourth sub-book about transfer of the Kingdom’s authority from the priests and Rabbi’s of the Old Testament to the priests and Apostles of the New Testament, Jesus had given the Keys to the Kingdom to Peter in chapter 16, along with Church’s authority to bind and loose.

The verse here is about two agreeing in prayer about a disciplinary issues which Jesus knew were inevitable. Jesus was teaching the future leadership of his Church that when these issues aries, they were to pray about it, agree on it, and that God would bind in heaven what they bound on earth. As Jesus the King’s delegated authority, the leadership of the Church was given the authority to bind and loose and this is the context of the agreement of two in prayer.

-Tim-

 

[Ion]

I was thinking about this verses and my opinion is toward yes.

You read the life of a saint and you know him, when you pray to him he knows you and your problems. In this way are we “two of you”?
I am on earth so, can I say we are on earth?
I think “two of you” (18:19) relates to “in My name” (18:20); saints are in His name, I strugle with my belief to be there too, my request (I hope) keeps me there too; my request may look good only.
If there is dissagreement the saint don’t have to explain it to me. Here is where meeting and discussing your problems and requests with other believers is important, because you might have to correct your request, or something in your life, no?

After praying to a saint, if the request is granted, we don’t know exactly why or how, but is that so much important to us?

It is the 2 milleniums of practice that prayers to the saints for intercession work.
Protestants make themselves a harder life.

After a request is granted, you have to go and get it!

 

[JackHandy]

Do you not believe Jesus when he prayed to the Father saying.I pray for those who will believe in Me through their message, that All of them may be one, just as you are in Me and I in You. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent Me.``

If you belive that why pray to anyone else for intersession on you behalf. To me it would be a lack of faith in my part to ask anyone else but Him who dwells in me.

 What I am specifically concerned with here is how it is that asking someone, whether they be a Saint or a next door neighbor, to pray for you demonstrates any lack of faith in the promises of God?

God Bless

Jack Handy