Question about Mortal sins

[I_Seek_2]

To give an analogy say a father gives his son rules to follow, now being a human child he breaks those rules some times and the father punishes him accordingly, however sill loves the child and has a good relationship with him, now suppose that child goes out and murders someone(or some other severe breaking of his rules), the father can do one of these things, punish him lightly, give the ultimate punishment(what ever that is lets say disownment), or forgive him, now lets suppose the son loves his father very much and still does after he does this: since it takes two willing people to begin any relationship and the son is still willing to have a relationship, isn’t it then that father who breaks off that relationship? To me it seems contradictory that an all loving God would at any time break off a relationship( mortal sins sever the relationship with God) with a person that still whats to know God, but hasn’t/won’t forgive his sins? Am I getting this right?

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

When we sin it is we who break the relationship not God, it is we who walk away from God like the prodigal son who leaves the home of his father, God waits for us to return to Him through the sacrament of Penance.

 

[Jay53]

To give an analogy say a father gives his son rules to follow, now being a human child he breaks those rules some times and the father punishes him accordingly, however sill loves the child and has a good relationship with him, now suppose that child goes out and murders someone(or some other severe breaking of his rules), the father can do one of these things, punish him lightly, give the ultimate punishment(what ever that is lets say disownment), or forgive him, now lets suppose the son loves his father very much and still does after he does this: since it takes two willing people to begin any relationship and the son is still willing to have a relationship, isn’t it then that father who breaks off that relationship? To me it seems contradictory that an all loving God would at any time break off a relationship( mortal sins sever the relationship with God) with a person that still whats to know God, but hasn’t/won’t forgive his sins? Am I getting this right?

How is the son showing that he still wants to have a relationship? IMO, that is the key. If he goes to his father in sincere sorrow and repentance and asks for forgiveness, his father will forgive him and the relationship will be restored. But, if the son is not sorry and does not ask for forgiveness, how much love is he showing to his father and how is he showing that he still wants a relationship with him?

 

[I_Seek_2]

How is the son showing that he still wants to have a relationship? IMO, that is the key. If he goes to his father in sincere sorrow and repentance and asks for forgiveness, his father will forgive him and the relationship will be restored. But, if the son is not sorry and does not ask for forgiveness, how much love is he showing to his father and how is he showing that he still wants a relationship with him?

So breaking of commandments= broken relationship? This doesn’t make seance, a father can still have a loving relationship with his son even if he refuses to ask for forgiveness, so first lets define what a relationship is. A relationship is a connection any between two parties. So first if our loving relationship is broken, what relationship to God do we have? Second if a catholic mortally sins yet still whats a loving relationship with God, yet doesn’t what to confess sins( for whatever reason, example they don’t believe it is a sin) is this possible?

What is your definition of a relationship?

 

[I_Seek_2]

When we sin it is we who break the relationship not God, it is we who walk away from God like the prodigal son who leaves the home of his father, God waits for us to return to Him through the sacrament of Penance.

An analogy you would use would be a son Has sex with an unmarred woman which he loves(this is probably a better example) and comes back to his father cursing him out and saying I will never speak to you again, because his father says he is wrong. In this case yes he has broken of his relationship with the Father. How ever if he comes back and says to the father I respect your opinion but do not agree with it, the son is not breaking off any relationship.

 

[Jay53]

So breaking of commandments= broken relationship? This doesn’t make seance, a father can still have a loving relationship with his son even if he refuses to ask for forgiveness, so first lets define what a relationship is. A relationship is a connection any between two parties. So first if our loving relationship is broken, what relationship to God do we have? Second if a catholic mortally sins yet still whats a loving relationship with God, yet doesn’t what to confess sins( for whatever reason, example they don’t believe it is a sin) is this possible?

I guess I don’t understand your premise here. You seem to be saying that the son can break his father’s commandments/rules with no expectation of consequences. The consequence of a mortal sin/breaking a commandment is the broken relationship. How can a father have a loving relationship with a son who has flagrantly broken his rules and refuses to show sorrow or remorse for having done so, yet still expects the relationship to exist as it was. That is what makes no sense. God never stops loving us - He wants us to repent and come back to Him. We are the ones who did wrong and have to make the effort to repair the relationship.

Your second question also doesn’t make sense. If God tells you what the rules are and you break them, but don’t want to confess because you don’t believe that the rule is fair or that it applies to you or that there should be consequences for breaking it, what are you telling God about how much of a loving relationship you want to have with him? “I love you God, but I don’t believe your rules so I’m going to break them, but I expect you to be OK with that!” How would you feel if your son/daughter said that to you? “I love you Mom/Dad, but I think I should be able to steal money (insert whatever sin) from you so I can go out and party, but I expect you to be OK with that!”

 

[Jay53]

An analogy you would use would be a son Has sex with an unmarred woman which he loves(this is probably a better example) and comes back to his father cursing him out and saying I will never speak to you again, because his father says he is wrong. In this case yes he has broken of his relationship with the Father. How ever if he comes back and says to the father I respect your opinion but do not agree with it, the son is not breaking off any relationship.

Yes, he has broken the relationship. He has basically told his Father, “I don’t care what your rules are, I know better and you’ll just have to live with what I want to do.” What kind of loving relationship is that? Just because a son/daughter doesn’t understand why a parent has the rules He has doesn’t mean he can just break them.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

Sin is you turning your back on God and walking away, just by sinning you break the relationship.

 

[teachccd]

So breaking of commandments= broken relationship? This doesn’t make seance, a father can still have a loving relationship with his son even if he refuses to ask for forgiveness, so first lets define what a relationship is. A relationship is a connection any between two parties. So first if our loving relationship is broken, what relationship to God do we have? Second if a catholic mortally sins yet still whats a loving relationship with God, yet doesn’t what to confess sins( for whatever reason, example they don’t believe it is a sin) is this possible?

In my opinion many of us use the term “mortal” sin to casually. In the case of a mortal sin we must know the act to be gravely disordered and then give full consent to the act. In other words, we are exhibiting a complete disobedience whereby we really do not care whether or not God even plays a part in our decision to place a lesser pleasure in the place of Him. God never stops loving us even in that situation. To use your analogy we would say that a son cannot follow his dads rules so he leaves home. The father still loves him and respects his decision. He does not bind and gag his son to keep him home. He lets him go.

It is the same with God. God’s love is infinite and in that infinite love we cannot find that He would drag us kicking and screaming to Himself. He allows us to remain separated from Him even though that is not His will. He loves us too much to force Himself on anyone who does not want Him. He allows one to live that way here (mortal sin) and to continue that into eternity (hell).

God would find anything to know that we are not in mortal sin. Yes, mortal sin exists and should be taken very seriously. However, we must also know the infinite love and mercy of God. Any amount of repentance and contrition is received by God with open arms. He wants us far more than we want Him. God is infinite knowledge and wisdom. He knows us better than we know ourselves. We should cry at the mere thought of offending an Almighty and Loving God but we should rejoice in the fact that He is an Almighty and Loving God.

So, in closing, we need to strive for holiness and live with Christ as our model. But when we fail we need to know that God is mercy and love and will never punish those who turn towards Him. He welcomes us with open arms. That is the God that Jesus revealed and so that is the God that we should know and worship… teachccd

 

[I_Seek_2]

I guess I don’t understand your premise here. You seem to be saying that the son can break his father’s commandments/rules with no expectation of consequences. The consequence of a mortal sin/breaking a commandment is the broken relationship. How can a father have a loving relationship with a son who has flagrantly broken his rules and refuses to show sorrow or remorse for having done so, yet still expects the relationship to exist as it was. That is what makes no sense. God never stops loving us - He wants us to repent and come back to Him. We are the ones who did wrong and have to make the effort to repair the relationship.

Your second question also doesn’t make sense. If God tells you what the rules are and you break them, but don’t want to confess because you don’t believe that the rule is fair or that it applies to you or that there should be consequences for breaking it, what are you telling God about how much of a loving relationship you want to have with him? “I love you God, but I don’t believe your rules so I’m going to break them, but I expect you to be OK with that!”

Your assuming that you can’t have a loving relationship with someone that breaks your (Gods) rules Correct? If so i don’t agree.

Like the example i said before:
A son has sex with an unmarried woman which he loves, and he comes back and tells his father what he did. the father explains what he did wrong, but the son disagrees and tells him that he respects and loves the father but disagrees. The son has not broken off the relationship, and the father is left with the choice of weather or not to have a loving relationship with his son after this event. in this case it would be the father who decides to break off the relationship not the son.

As for consequences i think the son fully understands the risk of the father punishing him in some way and if the consequences are broken relationship then it is the fathers doing not the son’s. This is what I’m trying to clarify, does God break off the relationship or do we? I’m not saying there won’t be consequences.

 

[I_Seek_2]

In my opinion many of us use the term “mortal” sin to casually. In the case of a mortal sin we must know the act to be gravely disordered and then give full consent to the act. In other words, we are exhibiting a complete disobedience whereby we really do not care whether or not God even plays a part in our decision to place a lesser pleasure in the place of Him. God never stops loving us even in that situation. To use your analogy we would say that a son cannot follow his dads rules so he leaves home. The father still loves him and respects his decision. He does not bind and gag his son to keep him home. He lets him go.
What if the son don’t what to leave his father’s house. Does the father say you ether follow my rules of leave?

It is the same with God. God’s love is infinite and in that infinite love we cannot find that He would drag us kicking and screaming to Himself. He allows us to remain separated from Him even though that is not His will. He loves us too much to force Himself on anyone who does not want Him. He allows one to live that way here (mortal sin) and to continue that into eternity (hell).

God would find anything to know that we are not in mortal sin. Yes, mortal sin exists and should be taken very seriously. However, we must also know the infinite love and mercy of God. Any amount of repentance and contrition is received by God with open arms. He wants us far more than we want Him. God is infinite knowledge and wisdom. He knows us better than we know ourselves. We should cry at the mere thought of offending an Almighty and Loving God but we should rejoice in the fact that He is an Almighty and Loving God.

So, in closing, we need to strive for holiness and live with Christ as our model. But when we fail we need to know that God is mercy and love and will never punish those who turn towards Him. He welcomes us with open arms. That is the God that Jesus revealed and so that is the God that we should know and worship… teachccd

 

[I_Seek_2]

Yes, he has broken the relationship. He has basically told his Father, “I don’t care what your rules are, I know better and you’ll just have to live with what I want to do.” What kind of loving relationship is that? Just because a son/daughter doesn’t understand why a parent has the rules He has doesn’t mean he can just break them.

A love thy enemies kind of relationship? or unconditional love?

The father son example is showing that it is the fathers choice to love his son after he breaks his commandments. The dilemma then is weather or not we can love God if we break his commandments, since we know God always loves us. If both are willing to love what other conditions are needed?

Also confusion is usually the reason the child disobeys the laws(ether on the reason of the law or how that reason is greater than the possible gains of breaking the law)

 

[Jay53]

Your assuming that you can’t have a loving relationship with someone that breaks your (Gods) rules Correct? If so i don’t agree.

Depends on what you mean by “loving relationship”. God makes the rules, we don’t. How do you have a relationship with someone who flagrantly breaks the rules. For example, if you are in a “loving relationship” with your girlfriend, and she goes out and has sex with another man and breaks the rules, what kind of relationship do you have? She tells you she doesn’t think it’s wrong and she still wants to have a loving relationship with you, she just doesn’t agree with your rule that she shouldn’t be with other men. How loving is your relationship?

Like the example i said before:
A son has sex with an unmarried woman which he loves, and he comes back and tells his father what he did. the father explains what he did wrong, but the son disagrees and tells him that he respects and loves the father but disagrees. The son has not broken off the relationship, and the father is left with the choice of weather or not to have a loving relationship with his son after this event. in this case it would be the father who decides to break off the relationship not the son.

As for consequences i think the son fully understands the risk of the father punishing him in some way and if the consequences are broken relationship then it is the fathers doing not the son’s. This is what I’m trying to clarify, does God break off the relationship or do we? I’m not saying there won’t be consequences.

If the son knows that the broken relationship is the consequence for breaking the rules and does it anyway, whose fault is that? The father’s for having consequences? The father’s for actually having the rule? Or the son’s for knowing the rule, knowing the consequences and breaking the rule anyway?

 

[Jay53]

A love thy enemies kind of relationship? or unconditional love?

The father son example is showing that it is the fathers choice to love his son after he breaks his commandments. The dilemma then is weather or not we can love God if we break his commandments, since we know God always loves us. If both are willing to love what other conditions are needed?

Also confusion is usually the reason the child disobeys the laws(ether on the reason of the law or how that reason is greater than the possible gains of breaking the law)

That’s where the definition of mortal sin comes in. See teachccd’s post earlier. He explained it very well. You have to know that something is seriously wrong and do it anyway. (i.e. someone knows that murder is wrong, but, being of sound mind goes out and plans and commits the murder of someone anyway.)

 

[Jay53]

A love thy enemies kind of relationship? or unconditional love?

The father son example is showing that it is the fathers choice to love his son after he breaks his commandments. The dilemma then is weather or not we can love God if we break his commandments, since we know God always loves us. If both are willing to love what other conditions are needed?

Also confusion is usually the reason the child disobeys the laws(ether on the reason of the law or how that reason is greater than the possible gains of breaking the law)

The father still loves the son even after he breaks his commandments. That doesn’t mean he has to accept that action or invite it into his house if the son isn’t sorry.

 

[I_Seek_2]

Depends on what you mean by “loving relationship”. God makes the rules, we don’t. How do you have a relationship with someone who flagrantly breaks the rules. For example, if you are in a “loving relationship” with your girlfriend, and she goes out and has sex with another man and breaks the rules, what kind of relationship do you have? She tells you she doesn’t think it’s wrong and she still wants to have a loving relationship with you, she just doesn’t agree with your rule that she shouldn’t be with other men. How loving is your relationship?
Your right I couldn’t do it you couldn’t do it however God could since he is eternal unconditional love.

If the son knows that the broken relationship is the consequence for breaking the rules and does it anyway, whose fault is that? The father’s for having consequences? The father’s for actually having the rule? Or the son’s for knowing the rule, knowing the consequences and breaking the rule anyway?

(my views are quite liberal so bear with me) I going to be legal blunt with this and say yes it is the fathers fault. The legislature may make the laws, the criminal may break them but the judge is still the one who decides what his punishment should be, or in Gods case forgiveness

One other question if God had taken away/forgave us our sins but we don’t accept his forgiveness are we still forgiven?

 

[I_Seek_2]

That’s where the definition of mortal sin comes in. See teachccd’s post earlier. He explained it very well. You have to know that something is seriously wrong and do it anyway. (i.e. someone knows that murder is wrong, but, being of sound mind goes out and plans and commits the murder of someone anyway.)

What i’m saying is that all deliberate breakings of God’s laws comes from not understanding it or its purpose, and/or not understanding how the purpose is greater that the gains of breaking it. Not that we don’t understand that its breaking a law.

 

[I_Seek_2]

The father still loves the son even after he breaks his commandments. That doesn’t mean he has to accept that action or invite it into his house if the son isn’t sorry.

But then isn’t it then the father who refuses to let the son in? (when was he expelled from the house I didn’t think we got that far?)

 

[Jay53]

One other question if God had taken away/forgave us our sins but we don’t accept his forgiveness are we still forgiven?

How can you not accept forgiveness?

 

[Jay53]

What i’m saying is that all deliberate breakings of God’s laws comes from not understanding it or its purpose, and/or not understanding how the purpose is greater that the gains of breaking it. Not that we don’t understand that its breaking a law.

Does a child need to understand all of the reasons for his parents’ rules, i.e. why he can’t cross the street without looking both ways or should he obey the rules and slowly come to understand the reasons for those rules? Does a child have an obligation to make an effort to understand why the rules are in place?