Question about Mortal sins

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I_Seek_2 said:
But then isn’t it then the father who refuses to let the son in? (when was he expelled from the house I didn’t think we got that far?)
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Why does the son have an expectation of being let into the house when he won’t follow the rules and won’t repent for having broken the rules?

(BTW, I didn’t say he was expelled, he left voluntarily because he didn’t want to follow the rules. 🙂 )
 
Jay53 said:
How can you not accept forgiveness? :confused:
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We don’t accept that the act was wrong, we don’t think we deserve forgiveness (low self esteem or haven’t done enough to repair the damage to receive forgiveness), not caring.
 
I_Seek_2 said:
We don’t accept that the act was wrong,
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That is called been obstinate in sin and if a person dies in that state they will be damned to hell.
I_Seek_2 said:
we don’t think we deserve forgiveness (low self esteem or haven’t done enough to repair the damage to receive forgiveness),
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That is a lack of faith in Gods mercy and if a person dies in that state they will be damned to hell

They are part of what are called the sins against the Holy Ghost which Christ tells us will not be forgiven.

“‘Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgivness, but is guilty of an eternal sin.’ [Mk. 3:29; Mt. 12:32; Lk. 12:10]”

“There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. [John Paul II, DeV 46] Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.”

The 6 Sins against the Holy Ghost

Presumption

“There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).” (C.C.C. # 2092)

Despair

“By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God’s goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy.” (C.C.C. # 2091)

Resisting the known truth

Resisting the known truth means to attack it by word or argument, to resist it, to contradict it, or even to oppose the known truth or to challenge it as false.

Envy of another’s spiritual good

To envy the spiritual good of another is to question the Divine judgment of the Holy Spirit in His distribution of spiritual gifts. It is to be jealous of another person who has a gift different than one’s own gift. Through envy, one rejects the gift that he has received from the Holy Spirit, determining in his own mind that the gift he has received is not good enough for him and he wants someone else’s gift.

Obstinacy in sin

To be “obstinate” means to resist the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, to be stubborn, to persist in sin, to be unyielding.

Final impenitence

“Impenitence” means to be uncontrite, unrepentant, hardened, unconverted, to be without regret, shame or remorse.
 
Does a child need to understand all of the reasons for his parents’ rules, i.e. why he can’t cross the street without looking both ways or should he obey the rules and slowly come to understand the reasons for those rules?
Does a child need to?
Your example is a guideline given by parents to prevent injury and is important relative to the parents perspective, the reason a child would disobey it, is because he does not think there is a great enough threat to accept that rule. So which one is right, as Einstein said both, they are both right relative to their perspective.

Eventually the child will have to make his own rules and for that reason he needs to understand them so he can weigh in the consequences. the more they understand the less likely the are to break the rules

Does a child have an obligation to make an effort to understand why the rules are in place?

Yes to ask questions, As a parent has the obligation to help the child understand(since you can’t make anyone understand).
But now this will lead us into what a parent should and shouldn’t do so lets not go there
 
Advocatus_Fidei said:
That is called been obstinate in sin and if a person dies in that state they will be damned to hell.

That is a lack of faith in Gods mercy and if a person dies in that state they will be damned to hell

They are part of what are called the sins against the Holy Ghost which Christ tells us will not be forgiven.
I respectfully disagree on if that is how it should be but won’t continue for that is another topic

“‘Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgivness, but is guilty of an eternal sin.’ [Mk. 3:29; Mt. 12:32; Lk. 12:10]”

“There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. [John Paul II, DeV 46] Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.”

The 6 Sins against the Holy Ghost

Presumption

“There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).” (C.C.C. # 2092)

Despair

“By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God’s goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy.” (C.C.C. # 2091)

Resisting the known truth

Resisting the known truth means to attack it by word or argument, to resist it, to contradict it, or even to oppose the known truth or to challenge it as false.

Not being able to Argue or challenge anything seems like a do or die statement, something unbecoming of a loving God. As i am doing?

Envy of another’s spiritual good

To envy the spiritual good of another is to question the Divine judgment of the Holy Spirit in His distribution of spiritual gifts. It is to be jealous of another person who has a gift different than one’s own gift. Through envy, one rejects the gift that he has received from the Holy Spirit, determining in his own mind that the gift he has received is not good enough for him and he wants someone else’s gift.

Obstinacy in sin

To be “obstinate” means to resist the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, to be stubborn, to persist in sin, to be unyielding.
Would it be a sin to stand your ground?

Final impenitence

“Impenitence” means to be uncontrite, unrepentant, hardened, unconverted, to be without regret, shame or remorse.
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Gods commands are given to you for your own good. You seem to be under some kind of illusion that you are Gods equal or that God owes you something, He owes us absolutely nothing yet He offers us so much, has done so much for us. If you wish to fight God go ahead but you will lose.
 
Advocatus_Fidei said:
Gods commands are given to you for your own good. You seem to be under some kind of illusion that you are Gods equal or that God owes you something, could you explain more?
He owes us absolutely nothing yet He offers us so much, has done so much for us. If you wish to fight God go ahead but you will lose.
I question, and when i don’t get an answer i ask again, trying to understand, fighting would be not trying to understand
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You need to understand God is Just, he rewards those who serve Him He does not reward those who make themselves His enemies through sin.

First you must have Faith then understanding will come later as God wills it when you are ready.
 
Advocatus_Fidei said:
Gods commands are given to you for your own good. You seem to be under some kind of illusion that you are Gods equal or that God owes you something, He owes us absolutely nothing yet He offers us so much, has done so much for us. If you wish to fight God go ahead but you will lose.
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I agree with your assessment.

To the OP, my perception from your posts is that you have a sense of entitlement - that God owes you everything (forgiveness/love etc), which God certainly offers us, but you are certainly not entitled to do as you wish just because you don’t understand why the rules are in place and not expect there to be consequences.
 
you’ll have to explain more about my entitlement because im probably blinded by my own thoughts.

It boils down to this. If God always loves me, and will always have a loving relationship with me, and if I am willing to do the same, what other conditions are necessary to have such a loving relationship, regardless of circumstances.

I guess what I’m saying is if i don’t want to break my relationship with God, how does mortal sin sever it?
 
I_Seek_2 said:
you’ll have to explain more about my entitlement because im probably blinded by my own thoughts.

It boils down to this. If God always loves me, and will always have a loving relationship with me, and if I am willing to do the same, what other conditions are necessary to have such a loving relationship, regardless of circumstances.

I guess what I’m saying is if i don’t want to break my relationship with God, how does mortal sin sever it?
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Mortal sin is when you know something is wrong (it goes against what God has commanded us) and you intentionally do it anyway (whether because you don’t understand why God said don’t do it, or you just want to anyway). When someone commits a mortal sin they are, in effect, telling God that they do want to break the relationship with God because their sinful action is more important, (i.e. from your example, having sex with an unmarried woman and the sexual pleasure derived from that is more important than keeping God’s commands not to do that.)

Always loving someone doesn’t mean that you accept bad or wrong behavior or that you don’t impose consequences to that bad or wrong behavior.
 
Jay53 said:
Mortal sin is when you know something is wrong (it goes against what God has commanded us) and you intentionally do it anyway (whether because you don’t understand why God said don’t do it, or you just want to anyway). When someone commits a mortal sin they are, in effect, telling God that they do want to break the relationship with God because their sinful action is more important, (i.e. from your example, having sex with an unmarried woman and the sexual pleasure derived from that is more important than keeping God’s commands not to do that.)

Always loving someone doesn’t mean that you accept bad or wrong behavior or that you don’t impose consequences to that bad or wrong behavior.
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Oh I see where your going, girl says to guy its ether her or me.

OK I’ll give you another analogy:

There is a family of 4, mother father, boy, and a new baby girl. The boy sees his parents spending a lot of time with the new baby girl and not as much time with him any more. Finally he can’t stand it any more and says to his parents, If you don’t play with me more I’ll run away from home.

In this case as well as in the scenario before, the girl and the boy respectively, are breaking off the relationship regardless of what circumstances have occurred. The level of tolerance is dependent upon the persons involved, and again no i couldn’t, you couldn’t, but God can since he is unconditional love.
 
I_Seek_2 said:
To give an analogy say a father gives his son rules to follow, now being a human child he breaks those rules some times and the father punishes him accordingly, however sill loves the child and has a good relationship with him, now suppose that child goes out and murders someone(or some other severe breaking of his rules), the father can do one of these things, punish him lightly, give the ultimate punishment(what ever that is lets say disownment), or forgive him, now lets suppose the son loves his father very much and still does after he does this: since it takes two willing people to begin any relationship and the son is still willing to have a relationship, isn’t it then that father who breaks off that relationship? To me it seems contradictory that an all loving God would at any time break off a relationship( mortal sins sever the relationship with God) with a person that still whats to know God, but hasn’t/won’t forgive his sins? Am I getting this right?
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Having read ahead in the thread, the analogy you paint is,
  • a son who is a bad guy, but somehow you turn it around and make the Father the bad guy.
  • You don’t say the son is sorry for the bad he does. Just that the Father is supposed to automatically forgive the son even though sorrow is not evident in the son
  • You SAY the son loves the Father but words are cheap. It’s what people DO not say, that demonstrates who they are and what they believe. You paint a picture of a son that really does NOT love his father.
  • Since your REAL analogy is meant to be between a human and God, you need to analyze behavior and sin through what is already revealed by God, not rearranged God through the prism of flawed human reasoning as if revelation about God in this matter is not available.
  • If God didn’t reveal how He treats sin, THEN it would be open to all sorts of interpretation and speculation
that’s my 2 cents
 
Having read ahead in the thread, the analogy you paint is,
  • a son who is a bad guy, but somehow you turn it around and make the Father the bad guy.
I agree the Murder analogy was a bad one, which is why i went with another a few posts later, guy has sex with unmarried girl he loves.
  • You don’t say the son is sorry for the bad he does. Just that the Father is supposed to automatically forgive the son even though sorrow is not evident in the son
I can turn that right back on you and say if you don’t think he has to forgive him do you think he has punish him.
No I’m not saying the son is sorry, I’m also not saying he has to forgive his son, I am trying to establish that even thought the son has done it, he doesn’t think it is wrong, and still wants to live with his father, It is the fathers decision to kick him out regardless of what he did, I’m not saying what he is supposed to do, I’m trying to say it was the father who kicked him out. “life is 10% circumstance and 90% how you react to it” -Charles R. Swindoll
  • You SAY the son loves the Father but words are cheap. It’s what people DO not say, that demonstrates who they are and what they believe. You paint a picture of a son that really does NOT love his father.
This is you opinion of the picture(aka how do you know), which I cannot change, but for now lets just suppose that he does.
  • Since your REAL analogy is meant to be between a human and God, you need to analyze behavior and sin through what is already revealed by God, not rearranged God through the prism of flawed human reasoning as if revelation about God in this matter is not available.
Elaborate please.
  • If God didn’t reveal how He treats sin, THEN it would be open to all sorts of interpretation and speculation
I’m simply talking about Mortal sin and how it break our relationship with God. which as i have been told is not “how God treats it” it is our doing.

that’s my 2 cents.
 
I_Seek_2 said:
I can turn that right back on you and say if you don’t think he has to forgive him do you think he has punish him.
No I’m not saying the son is sorry, I’m also not saying he has to forgive his son, I am trying to establish that even thought the son has done it, he doesn’t think it is wrong, and still wants to live with his father, It is the fathers decision to kick him out regardless of what he did, I’m not saying what he is supposed to do, I’m trying to say it was the father who kicked him out. “life is 10% circumstance and 90% how you react to it” -Charles R. Swindoll
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It doesn’t matter what the son “thinks”. The father has flat out told him it is wrong and what the consequences are for disobedience. Why does the father have to “negotiate” with the son on the punishment? The son “still wants to live with his father”, but only on his own terms and what he “thinks” is right or wrong, not what actually IS right or wrong.

The son, in essence, kicked himself out of the house by refusing to obey the rules and refusing to be sorry for breaking them. He knew what the consequences were for breaking the rules - he chose to break the rules, therefore he chooses the consequences. He may not like the consequences, but he did in fact choose them.
*]You SAY the son loves the Father but words are cheap. It’s what people DO not say, that demonstrates who they are and what they believe. You paint a picture of a son that really does NOT love his father.
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This is you opinion of the picture(aka how do you know), which I cannot change, but for now lets just suppose that he does.
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I agree with steve b. Talk is cheap. What is the son doing to show his love for his father? So far all we’ve seen is the son demonstrating an unwillingness to follow the rules just because he doesn’t “think” they should be in place.

Perhaps apt in this case is the parable of the two sons (Matthew 21:28-32)
"But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go work today in the vineyard.’
"And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he regretted it and went.
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"The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, ‘I will, sir’; but he did not go.
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“Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.
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"For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing this, did not even feel remorse afterward so as to believe him.
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I_Seek_2 said:
Your assuming that you can’t have a loving relationship with someone that breaks your (Gods) rules Correct? If so i don’t agree.

Like the example i said before:
A son has sex with an unmarried woman which he loves, and he comes back and tells his father what he did. the father explains what he did wrong, but the son disagrees and tells him that he respects and loves the father but disagrees. The son has not broken off the relationship, and the father is left with the choice of weather or not to have a loving relationship with his son after this event. in this case it would be the father who decides to break off the relationship not the son.

As for consequences i think the son fully understands the risk of the father punishing him in some way and if the consequences are broken relationship then it is the fathers doing not the son’s. This is what I’m trying to clarify, does God break off the relationship or do we? I’m not saying there won’t be consequences.
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Let’s not forget that God is a loving father, but he is also the prime rule giver. A human father may be a rule giver, but in his human frailty his rule may be wrong and can be disagreed with. To disagree with God on his rules is tantamount to telling him that he is wrong and not truthful which in itself would be an act of sin separate from breaking the rule. In disagreeing even with another human being at bare minimum one damages the relationship even if it is not totally severed. Intentionally breaking God’s rules in serious matters is a complete severance of the relationship. Disagreeing with the rule does not equal repentance.
 
Jay53 said:
It doesn’t matter what the son “thinks”. The father has flat out told him it is wrong and what the consequences are for disobedience. Why does the father have to “negotiate” with the son on the punishment? The son “still wants to live with his father”, but only on his own terms and what he “thinks” is right or wrong, not what actually IS right or wrong.

The son, in essence, kicked himself out of the house by refusing to obey the rules and refusing to be sorry for breaking them. He knew what the consequences were for breaking the rules - he chose to break the rules, therefore he chooses the consequences. He may not like the consequences, but he did in fact choose them.

This part is what I’m trying to get across. Regardless of who did what, or who told who what, or who thought what, at the end of the day this sequence of events happened, the father told son not to, son did anyway, son came back, father kicked son out of house. The important action is the father kicked son out, no if, and, or buts about it.

I agree with steve b. Talk is cheap. What is the son doing to show his love for his father? So far all we’ve seen is the son demonstrating an unwillingness to follow the rules just because he doesn’t “think” they should be in place.

Ah, so did you not love your father when you disobeyed him? Can a son show that he hates his father by disobeying him. Yes. Is this so. No. You both are putting conditions on love, saying the son has to do this in order for the son to love his father. Since when are there conditions? It could be argued that he is not respecting his father. But since when are there conditions on what love is/isn’t. Love is whatever(level of intensity) it wants to be, with whoever it wants to be.

Perhaps apt in this case is the parable of the two sons (Matthew 21:28-32)
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