Question about Mortal sins

[I_Seek_2]

Let’s not forget that God is a loving father, but he is also the prime rule giver. A human father may be a rule giver, but in his human frailty his rule may be wrong and can be disagreed with. To disagree with God on his rules is tantamount to telling him that he is wrong and not truthful which in itself would be an act of sin separate from breaking the rule. In disagreeing even with another human being at bare minimum one damages the relationship even if it is not totally severed. Intentionally breaking God’s rules in serious matters is a complete severance of the relationship. Disagreeing with the rule does not equal repentance.

I have another thread questioning Laws(forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=409443)
In this tread im just trying to understand how mortal sins sever our relationship with God. Laws the may be. Right they maybe, but how do they sever our relationship with God.

 

[Jay53]

This part is what I’m trying to get across. Regardless of who did what, or who told who what, or who thought what, at the end of the day this sequence of events happened, the father told son not to, son did anyway, son came back, father kicked son out of house. The important action is the father kicked son out, no if, and, or buts about it.

Perhaps you have too liberal of a mindset to understand the point. The son chose his actions, but then is expecting different consequences. It doesn’t work that way. The important action is NOT the father kicked the son out. The son kicked himself out by choosing to disobey. What happens if he obeys the rules - guess what? He stays!! See how easy that was!

 

[I_Seek_2]

Perhaps you have too liberal of a mindset to understand the point. The son chose his actions, but then is expecting different consequences. It doesn’t work that way. The important action is NOT the father kicked the son out. The son kicked himself out by choosing to disobey. What happens if he obeys the rules - guess what? He stays!! See how easy that was!

Well dang we told the Taliban to surrender and we wont have to bomb them, they chose not to surrender, so they in turn chose to bomb themselves. If they surrender they live. Happy world.

 

[Jay53]

Well dang we told the Taliban to surrender and we wont have to bomb them, they chose not to surrender, so they in turn chose to bomb themselves. If they surrender they live. Happy world.

So now you’re going to equate God’s Laws with government policies?

For whatever reason you seem to be one of those people who doesn’t want to take responsibility for your own actions.

 

[I_Seek_2]

So now you’re going to equate God’s Laws with government policies?

For whatever reason you seem to be one of those people who doesn’t want to take responsibility for your own actions.

You assume that some how the son kicked himself out. My example was just fallowing that logic.

We already know that it is the sons fault, he did it. The son has said he has done it. We know who is responsible fro doing the actions. I don’t see where your getting this from. The question is did the father punish his son or did the son punish himself. I say the father punished son. You say son punished himself. We agree on who did the action, the son. we disagree on who administered the punishment.

 

[Jay53]

You assume that some how the son kicked himself out. My example was just fallowing that logic.

We already know that it is the sons fault, he did it. The son has said he has done it. We know who is responsible fro doing the actions. I don’t see where your getting this from. The question is did the father punish his son or did the son punish himself. I say the father punished son. You say son punished himself. We agree on who did the action, the son. we disagree on who administered the punishment.

I just don’t get what you are trying to say. It seems like you are saying there should be no (or different) consequences or that it is the father’s fault that the son has to accept the consequences of his actions. I just don’t get that mindset. Sadly, however, I don’t think you are alone in this thinking.

 

[I_Seek_2]

I just don’t get what you are trying to say. It seems like you are saying there should be no (or different) consequences or that it is the father’s fault that the son has to accept the consequences of his actions. I just don’t get that mindset. Sadly, however, I don’t think you are alone in this thinking.

Dang it i knew my friends were freeks :crying:

OK i think the father is right in punishing his son, i’'l say that. The father decided to punish his son, right now im not talking about what he did I’m talking about the fact that he did.

 

[I_Seek_2]

Lets use a different scenario:

A young son, disobeys his father: the father told him if he breaks his laws he will be kicked out. So the father true to his word kikes the boy out and won’t let him back in until he is sorry. The is stubborn and won’t, and boy eventually freezes to death. First who’s action lead to the boy’s death. The boy or his father. Second who’s action was it that punished the boy. the boy or his father?

 

[Jay53]

Lets use a different scenario:

A young son, disobeys his father: the father told him if he breaks his laws he will be kicked out. So the father true to his word kikes the boy out and won’t let him back in until he is sorry. The is stubborn and won’t, and boy eventually freezes to death. First who’s action lead to the boy’s death. The boy or his father. Second who’s action was it that punished the boy. the boy or his father?

How old of a boy are we talking about? Because now it sounds like you’re talking about child abuse!?

The son is responsible for his own actions and reactions.

If you are equating this with going to hell (although that would be the opposite of freezing ), the son is obviously responsible. Although from my understanding, if someone chooses hell, they do so immediately; those in Purgatory (standing outside in the cold) will eventually get to Heaven.

I think I’ve lost track of the point of this conversation. What are you trying to find out - If God is responsible for sending people to hell because they refuse to obey Him and refuse to repent of their disobedience because they think His Laws are stupid and they don’t understand why they are there?

 

[I_Seek_2]

How old of a boy are we talking about? Because now it sounds like you’re talking about child abuse!?

The son is responsible for his own actions and reactions.

So how does God treat us like adults or children.

I think I’ve lost track of the point of this conversation. What are you trying to find out - If God is responsible for sending people to hell because they refuse to obey Him and refuse to repent of their disobedience because they think His Laws are stupid and they don’t understand why they are there?

How does mortal sin, break our relationship with God if they are willing to have a loving relationship after they committed mortal sin? If God is willing and they are wiling what other conditions are necessary?

 

[Jay53]

So how does God treat us like adults or children.

Both. We are God’s children, but at the same time we have free will. We are free to choose our own actions and reactions based on the Laws that God has given us.

How does mortal sin, break our relationship with God if they are willing to have a loving relationship after they committed mortal sin? If God is willing and they are wiling what other conditions are necessary?

Repentance is necessary. A person committing mortal sin is telling God that they don’t love Him enough to refrain from doing wrong. God wants our complete and total love, freely given (that is why we have free will) - in the same way He gives us complete and total love. That is why He is always ready to forgive us when we do wrong. If someone doesn’t want to repent, they are the ones choosing to stay apart from God. They may “say” that they still love God, but they are not willing to back those words up with actions.

 

[davidv]

So how does God treat us like adults or children.

How does mortal sin, break our relationship with God if they are willing to have a loving relationship after they committed mortal sin? If God is willing and they are wiling what other conditions are necessary?

A mortal sin has as its object grave matter, such as murder, is done with full knowledge of its gravity and is committed willingly. There can be no “willing to have a loving relationship” afterward part of this requirement. To commit a mortal sin is to completely disregard God’s love and offer no love in return.

Any sin not meeting these conditions is not mortal.

Given the above I don’t understand your questions.

 

[Jay53]

A mortal sin has as its object grave matter, such as murder, is done with full knowledge of its gravity and is committed willingly. There can be no “willing to have a loving relationship” afterward part of this requirement. To commit a mortal sin is to completely disregard God’s love and offer no love in return.

Any sin not meeting these conditions is not mortal.

Given the above I don’t understand your questions.

I don’t either. He seems to be trying to set up a scenario where someone commits a mortal sin, doesn’t want to repent, but still wants to have a loving relationship with God. Mortal sin negates the “wanting to have a loving relationship with God.”

Perhaps his question is more along the lines of why certain sins are considered mortal (vs. venial or even considered sins at all). ???

 

[I_Seek_2]

What does it take to have a loving relationship first off?

 

[rwoehmke]

I have another thread questioning Laws(forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=409443)
In this tread im just trying to understand how mortal sins sever our relationship with God. Laws the may be. Right they maybe, but how do they sever our relationship with God.

In the case of God’s laws/rule one either chooses to obey and maintain the relationship; in other words chooses God, or one chooses some evil and in doing so rejects God. To reject God is to sever the relationship. Just wanting a relationship is not having a relationship; certain behaviors are essential.

 

[rwoehmke]

Let’s try a different approach. We are Baptized and become adopted Children of God with sanctifying grace which enables us to see God as he really is. We commit a mortal sin and unrepentant die. We go before the judgement seat. Because we do not have sanctifying grace which enables us to see God as he really is and chose him, we see only ourselves and selfishly reject God to follow our own ego and go to hell. We are unable to chose God because we are too self centered and turned in on ourselves to do so and end up choosing ourselves; HELL…

 

[Ron_Conte]

Let’s try a different approach. We are Baptized and become adopted Children of God with sanctifying grace which enables us to see God as he really is. We commit a mortal sin and unrepentant die. We go before the judgement seat. Because we do not have sanctifying grace which enables us to see God as he really is and chose him, we see only ourselves and selfishly reject God to follow our own ego and go to hell. We are unable to chose God because we are too self centered and turned in on ourselves to do so and end up choosing ourselves; HELL…

The above quote is doctrinally false, for several reasons.

First, no one has the Beatific Vision of God at the particular judgment. Pope Benedict XII infallibly taught that the Beatific Vision is only given to the faithful once they enter Heaven, not at the particular judgment and not in Purgatory.

Second, Scripture plainly teaches that God is our Judge; He judges sinners at the particular judgment, and at the general judgment. We do not judge ourselves, nor is there some kind of clever system that automatically sends persons to Hell, Purgatory, or Heaven.

Third, the Church teaches that it is our choices in this life that determine our destination after death. It is not a choice made after death. The claim that a choice after death detemines our eternal destination is contrary to Catholic teaching.

Fourth, sanctifying grace does not necessarily mean that we have the Beatific Vision of God. The holy souls in Purgatory all have sanctifying grace, but they do not have the Beatific Vision until they enter Heaven.

Fifth, all souls in Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven are not in the same exact state. There are degrees of suffering in Hell, and in Purgatory, and degrees of glory in Heaven. A judgment by God is needed at the particular judgment to decide, not only which of those three places a person will be sent, but also the degree of suffering or reward due to each person.

Council of Florence, Sixth Session, 6 July 1439: “But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.”

 

[Ron_Conte]

On the Beatific Vision of God
Benedictus Deus
Constitution issued by Pope Benedict XII in 1336

By this Constitution which is to remain in force for ever, we, with apostolic authority, define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints who departed from this world before the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ and also of the holy apostles, martyrs, confessors, virgins and other faithful who died after receiving the holy baptism of Christ- provided they were not in need of any purification when they died, or will not be in need of any when they die in the future, or else, if they then needed or will need some purification, after they have been purified after death-and again the souls of children who have been reborn by the same baptism of Christ or will be when baptism is conferred on them, if they die before attaining the use of free will: all these souls, immediately (mox) after death and, in the case of those in need of purification, after the purification mentioned above, since the ascension of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ into heaven, already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment, have been, are and will be with Christ in heaven, in the heavenly kingdom and paradise, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the passion and death of the Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and see the divine essense with an intuitive vision and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature by way of object of vision; rather the divine essence immediately manifests itself to them, plainly, clearly and openly, and in this vision they enjoy the divine essence . Moreover, by this vision and enjoyment the souls of those who have already died are truly blessed and have eternal life and rest. Also the souls of those who will die in the future will see the same divine essence and will enjoy it before the general judgment.

Such a vision and enjoyment of the divine essence do away with the acts of faith and hope in these souls, inasmuch as faith and hope are properly theological virtues. And after such intuitive and face-to-face vision and enjoyment has or will have begun for these souls, the same vision and enjoyment has continued and will continue without any interruption and without end until the last Judgment and from then on forever.

Moreover we define that according to the general disposition of God, the souls of those who die in actual mortal sin go down into hell immediately (mox) after death and there suffer the pain of hell. Nevertheless, on the day of judgment all men will appear with their bodies “before the judgment seat of Christ” to give an account of their personal deeds, “so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body” (2 Cor. 5.10).

 

[davidv]

What does it take to have a loving relationship first off?

Mutual self-giving for the betterment of the other.