question about Opus Dei

[Mark12]

A moment’s thought about the putative meaning behind a statute would have led to a less sinister conclusion, at least by those less carried away with conspiracy theories.

Why might such a statute exist? To play secret agent games? Or maybe to encourage young people not to hide behind an organization or to use their affiliation for prideful or vain reasons, instead to rely on God helping to build virtue and nurse humility in them.

Maybe St Josemaria had some more pastoral reasons for what was placed in statutes, aimed at forming members.

Edward, I think that you’re just reading what you want to read.
No one talked about any conspiracy.
I thought that as this is a Catholic forum, some things were understood without explanation, but it seems that you do need some explanations.
All Catholic organizations in order to be approved by the Vatican need to have Statutes (or some sort of approved regulations).
So what we’re talking about are not secret agent games, we’re talking about a public Catholic’s organization statutes.
I’m sure that St. Josemaria had some pastoral reasons for what was placed in those Statutes, what we are talking about is that those Statutes are not publicly available.
You mentioned before that a family does not need to put all his information online.
I totally agree with that… but we’re not talking about a family

 

[Edward_H]

Edward, I think that you’re just reading what you want to read.
No one talked about any conspiracy.
I thought that as this is a Catholic forum, some things were understood without explanation, but it seems that you do need some explanations.
All Catholic organizations in order to be approved by the Vatican need to have Statutes (or some sort of approved regulations).
So what we’re talking about are not secret agent games, we’re talking about a public Catholic’s organization statutes.
I’m sure that St. Josemaria had some pastoral reasons for what was placed in those Statutes, what we are talking about is that those Statutes are not publicly available.
You mentioned before that a family does not need to put all his information online.
I totally agree with that… but we’re not talking about a family

Mark, the tenor of the comments here on statutes, on secrecy, on imagined size and influence of Opus Dei fall into the easy, predictable mythology that the media and some excitable spectators seem prone to.

So you want us to believe that while the Vatican approved these statutes, they don’t know that they are kept private?

If you knew anything about the Work, the spirituality and customs of Opus Dei, especially the life of a Numerary, you wouldn’t have made your last comment about family.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Mark, the tenor of the comments here on statutes, on secrecy, on imagined size and influence of Opus Dei…

The only person who estimated a size of Opus Dei was you. From a book published in 2005, that would have been written at least a year earlier. One presumes that they have grown since then. And no one at all said anything about “influence.” No one accused, implied, or suggested anything at all untoward, but you.

If you knew anything about the Work, the spirituality and customs of Opus Dei, especially the life of a Numerary, you wouldn’t have made your last comment about family.

Are you a Numerary?

 

[Edward_H]

The only person who estimated a size of Opus Dei was you. From a book published in 2005, that would have been written at least a year earlier. One presumes that they have grown since then. And no one at all said anything about “influence.” No one accused, implied, or suggested anything at all untoward, but you.

Are you a Numerary?

No. I didn’t estimate anything. I passed on what I’ve read. Admit it. You were surprised when i provide actual nimbers at how low a percent membership was with respect to the Church, and with respect to absolute numbers. And now you’re off again inthe world of wild speculation as to how they “have grown since then.”

It’s this kind of thinking that feeds myths and unproductive conversations.

Provide counter numbers or withdraw your fallacious “enormous” supposition.

 

[Julia_Mae]

No. I didn’t estimate anything. I passed on what I’ve read. Admit it. You were surprised when i provide actual nimbers at how low a percent membership was with respect to the Church,

LOL! Nope. Maybe you should “admit” you are a terrible mind-reader. The point of the exchange was you made a general accusation that someone was wildly overestimating the size of OD when the only person who mentioned any numbers at all was you. You keep trying to make it sound like people are advancing conspiracy theories and so forth but no one has.

I am quite familiar with OD’s structure and I probably know more facts right now about membership… like… did you know that only clerics are actually members of the Prelature? But let’s look at these numbers.

So, if in 2004 there were 90,000 members, or clerics plus associated laity, how many do you think there are 7 years later? Do you think the original numbers included Cooperators and Supernumeriaries and Associates not living in Centers? Since, by Statute, Opus Dei members are forbidden from discussing the number of members, do you think they have departed from the ways set by the Father? Or do you think there was any way at all of verifying the number published? Do you know that by statute, no record is given to a member whereby they could ever show they are a member and that the names of members are recorded in a way completely inaccessible to the public?

And now you’re off again inthe world of wild speculation as to how they “have grown since then.”

I wonder if it’s really “wild” to speculate that in the last 8 years an organization has acquired new members. Do you think they are so unpopular that people have stopped joining? Or do you think so many people have left that they have just stayed the same or gotten smaller?

 

[Edward_H]

Peace.

The truth is that you said “enormous”. And I provided an actual point of comparison, showing your assertion to be ridiculous.

 

[Mark12]

Mark, the tenor of the comments here on statutes, on secrecy, on imagined size and influence of Opus Dei fall into the easy, predictable mythology that the media and some excitable spectators seem prone to.

So you want us to believe that while the Vatican approved these statutes, they don’t know that they are kept private?

If you knew anything about the Work, the spirituality and customs of Opus Dei, especially the life of a Numerary, you wouldn’t have made your last comment about family.

Edward, once again, it seems that you read what you want to read.
As I mentioned at the beginning of this blog, I’m an ex-Opus Dei member.
I was a numerary for 8 years, so yes… I know everything about Opus Dei, that’s the reason that I said that we’re talking about a Church organization, not a family.
I feel like you don’t understand what we’re talking about on this blog.
Someone mentioned that wants to join Opus Dei, but before do it, he’d like to know the Statutes. A logic request.
So what we’re saying is that those Statutes, which should be easily available, they’re not… we’re not talking about numbers, conspiracies or mythology…
So please, read before answer.

 

[Julia_Mae]

The truth is that you said “enormous”. And I provided an actual point of comparison, showing your assertion to be ridiculous.

In your opinion, which differs from mine. A worldwide organization of well over 100k members, being clerics and those living in Centers, including 2500 or so priests, most of whom are not working in any parishes but are the administrators of the organization, with another 200-400k Supernumeraries and Cooperators is an enormous organization, IMO. What makes it that is not sheer numbers, but the identities and professions of many of the members who, in the various cultures, have a tendency to hold powerful positions in government, education, finance and media, as well as the Church. (This, BTW, is also outlined in the statutes.) This means that the organization is highly influential in every country in which it operates even though the raw numbers of Opus Dei faithful is relatively small per country. After all, there is one Supernumerary and one Cooperator on the US Supreme Court. That’s a powerful presence amongst only 9 members.) As the decisions and control of the “apostolates” and actions of these powerful members is kept at the very top (also in the statutes) this makes Opus Dei one of the most powerful organizations in the world.

This is not a “conspiracy theory;” it’s just how the thing works. No one has said they are doing anything horrible or have a cadre of assassin monks at their disposal.

This thread is in the vocations area and OP was interested in Opus Dei as a possible vocation. What is a “vocation” to Opus Dei? In most Catholic or Christian lives of service, the spirit of the individual charism is to serve others, as Jesus commanded, through prayer and other works of mercy. Brothers and Sisters and Priests, while humble, do not hide themselves and their affiliations with their Orders.

But in Opus Dei, the group assists one another in establishing a lucrative and successful secular careers as apostolates, promoting the self, but hiding the connection to this commitment to spiritual life. Again, this is all spelled out specifically in the Code of Opus Dei. It seems a bit backward to me.

Mark, a former OD Numerary by his own posting, has pointed out that one is not told all that is expected of them before joining the organization. In practice, even though Pope John Paul II forbid the taking of vows by lay persons to become associated with Opus Dei, they demand the individuals take private vows, not telling them that this doesn’t make then sisters or brothers or obligate Opus Dei to them in any way whatsoever in terms of providing shelter, food, medical care or retirement, unlike an Order in the Church to which one might profess vows.

If people wish to affiliate themselves with Opus Dei, or become Numeraries and Priests of Opus Dei, I am all happy to pray for them and congratulate them on their choice, but only if they know the facts before they make the commitment. The issue is, no one can actually discern a vocation to Opus Dei, or any other thing or place or group or job, unless they know what that thing is.

To join a monastic society, the candidate goes to live there for an extended time to experience the life and decide. In Opus Dei, the Numeraries and Numerary Assistants make the vows and pledges and then are moved into a Center and told what is required of them.

So, Edward, what has your personal experience with Opus Dei been?

 

[Edward_H]

Edward, once again, it seems that you read what you want to read.
As I mentioned at the beginning of this blog, I’m an ex-Opus Dei member.
I was a numerary for 8 years, so yes… I know everything about Opus Dei, that’s the reason that I said that we’re talking about a Church organization, not a family.
I feel like you don’t understand what we’re talking about on this blog.
Someone mentioned that wants to join Opus Dei, but before do it, he’d like to know the Statutes. A logic request.
So what we’re saying is that those Statutes, which should be easily available, they’re not… we’re not talking about numbers, conspiracies or mythology…
So please, read before answer.

If what you say is true, it sounds like you’re bitter about a decision you made at least 8 times, each Feast Day of St Joseph. Never mind all the formation and chats you would have had prior to admission.

 

[Edward_H]

In your opinion, which differs from mine. A worldwide organization of well over 100k members, being clerics and those living in Centers, including 2500 or so priests, most of whom are not working in any parishes but are the administrators of the organization, with another 200-400k Supernumeraries and Cooperators is an enormous organization, IMO. What makes it that is not sheer numbers, but the identities and professions of many of the members who, in the various cultures, have a tendency to hold powerful positions in government, education, finance and media, as well as the Church. (This, BTW, is also outlined in the statutes.) This means that the organization is highly influential in every country in which it operates even though the raw numbers of Opus Dei faithful is relatively small per country. After all, there is one Supernumerary and one Cooperator on the US Supreme Court. That’s a powerful presence amongst only 9 members.) As the decisions and control of the “apostolates” and actions of these powerful members is kept at the very top (also in the statutes) this makes Opus Dei one of the most powerful organizations in the world.

This is not a “conspiracy theory;” it’s just how the thing works. No one has said they are doing anything horrible or have a cadre of assassin monks at their disposal.

This thread is in the vocations area and OP was interested in Opus Dei as a possible vocation. What is a “vocation” to Opus Dei? In most Catholic or Christian lives of service, the spirit of the individual charism is to serve others, as Jesus commanded, through prayer and other works of mercy. Brothers and Sisters and Priests, while humble, do not hide themselves and their affiliations with their Orders.

But in Opus Dei, the group assists one another in establishing a lucrative and successful secular careers as apostolates, promoting the self, but hiding the connection to this commitment to spiritual life. Again, this is all spelled out specifically in the Code of Opus Dei. It seems a bit backward to me.

Mark, a former OD Numerary by his own posting, has pointed out that one is not told all that is expected of them before joining the organization. In practice, even though Pope John Paul II forbid the taking of vows by lay persons to become associated with Opus Dei, they demand the individuals take private vows, not telling them that this doesn’t make then sisters or brothers or obligate Opus Dei to them in any way whatsoever in terms of providing shelter, food, medical care or retirement, unlike an Order in the Church to which one might profess vows.

If people wish to affiliate themselves with Opus Dei, or become Numeraries and Priests of Opus Dei, I am all happy to pray for them and congratulate them on their choice, but only if they know the facts before they make the commitment. The issue is, no one can actually discern a vocation to Opus Dei, or any other thing or place or group or job, unless they know what that thing is.

To join a monastic society, the candidate goes to live there for an extended time to experience the life and decide. In Opus Dei, the Numeraries and Numerary Assistants make the vows and pledges and then are moved into a Center and told what is required of them.

So, Edward, what has your personal experience with Opus Dei been?

You’re funny…in 2 days you’ve inflated a number that I gave you by 25%.

My experiences with Opus Dei have been great. The formation is strong and the direction I get is sincere and helpful. The people I have met are nice, hardworking, and generous.

And you don’t know who on the Supreme Court is or is not a member. It appears you’d rather talk and kibutz about an organization than to pursue holiness. You seem very “affiliation-minded.”

 

[Mark12]

If what you say is true, it sounds like you’re bitter about a decision you made at least 8 times, each Feast Day of St Joseph. Never mind all the formation and chats you would have had prior to admission.

Wow, I thought that we’re having an adult exchange here, but your answers are very childish.
I don’t know how you can deduct from my answers that I’m bitter about anything.
My 8 years inside Opus Dei were very special and I’m thankful for lots of things that I learned there.
But I do not know why that has anything to do with my answers to this blog.
When you grow up write again and we can have an adult exchange

 

[Edward_H]

Wow, I thought that we’re having an adult exchange here, but your answers are very childish.
I don’t know how you can deduct from my answers that I’m bitter about anything.
My 8 years inside Opus Dei were very special and I’m thankful for lots of things that I learned there.
But I do not know why that has anything to do with my answers to this blog.
When you grow up write again and we can have an adult exchange

Something about your story just doesn’t add up yet. Look, I think it’s a reasonable question to ponder why you bitterly claim doubletalk / 2 faced-ness (to the Work) in your post above, and yet year afer year afer year you recommitted to the Work, in your own freedom. Most people in the Work are of the belief that it is hard to get in but easy to get out.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Something about your story just doesn’t add up yet. Look, I think it’s a reasonable question to ponder why you bitterly claim doubletalk / 2 faced-ness (to the Work) in your post above, and yet year afer year afer year you recommitted to the Work, in your own freedom. Most people in the Work are of the belief that it is hard to get in but easy to get out.

Another thing you seem to be unaware of is that Opus Dei can “reup” someone without even telling them it was an option not to. (Another one of those things in the Code) Once you are Fidelity, after 4-5 years, you don’t do that, anyway.

I also find nothing “bitter” in Mike’s tone. At all.

 

[Edward_H]

Another thing you seem to be unaware of is that Opus Dei can “reup” someone without even telling them it was an option not to. (Another one of those things in the Code) Once you are Fidelity, after 4-5 years, you don’t do that, anyway.

I also find nothing “bitter” in Mike’s tone. At all.

Here’s another example of sensational use of words from you… “re up” without option not to. That’s just not so…and even if it were so…which it isn’t…it’s not like the Opus Dei Shore Patrol can chase you down and put you in the brig when you leave. Utter ridiculousness.

This kind of reading what you want into a set of statutes that have been translated into English (by whom?..do you know THEIR story??) is why you are clearly one of the Opus Dei sensationalists.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Here’s another example of sensational use of words from you… “re up” without option not to. That’s just not so…

It is, Edward. It’s late where I am but I’ll be happy to find and post the statute tomorrow for you. It’s hardly “sensationalism.” “re up” is just slang.

it’s not like the Opus Dei Shore Patrol can chase you down and put you in the brig when you leave. Utter ridiculousness.

I did not bring up any such thing. However, while I won’t post them, you can go to ODAN and find stories where they did just that. I think they’ve learned better now. But I never said one word about it, you did. You keep saying things and trying to make it seem as if I did.

This kind of reading what you want into a set of statutes that have been translated into English (by whom?..do you know THEIR story??) is why you are clearly one of the Opus Dei sensationalists.

Oh, for goodness sake, Edward, the statutes are online at several places. I gave a link to one, you can download them at ODAN in Latin and English and translate them yourself, if you want to.

Tell you what, tomorrow I’ll post this specific one in both languages and you see if you can make it say something else. Hey, maybe I’m misremembering, yanno? I could turn out to be wrong. No one is twisting the things around, it’s a very clear and complete set of instructions for the operation of Opus Dei, even though it’s written by a lawyer and so, convoluted as so many legal documents are. Go read them, yourself, I left the link in one of the first few posts.

Edward, you have to stop accusing me of these “senationalist” type things when I am obviously not. I think you are kinda making yourself look bad. I don’t think your attempts to denigrate and minimize Mike are doing very well, either. Please try to consider that you might not know everything about Opus Dei.

But if you want to witness to how positive it has been for you, here in this is thread under this title in the Vocations forum would be a great place to do that. What’s your apostolate?

 

[Edward_H]

It is, Edward. It’s late where I am but I’ll be happy to find and post the statute tomorrow for you. It’s hardly “sensationalism.” “re up” is just slang.

I did not bring up any such thing. However, while I won’t post them, you can go to ODAN and find stories where they did just that. I think they’ve learned better now. But I never said one word about it, you did. You keep saying things and trying to make it seem as if I did.

Oh, for goodness sake, Edward, the statutes are online at several places. I gave a link to one, you can download them at ODAN in Latin and English and translate them yourself, if you want to.

Tell you what, tomorrow I’ll post this specific one in both languages and you see if you can make it say something else. Hey, maybe I’m misremembering, yanno? I could turn out to be wrong. No one is twisting the things around, it’s a very clear and complete set of instructions for the operation of Opus Dei, even though it’s written by a lawyer and so, convoluted as so many legal documents are. Go read them, yourself, I left the link in one of the first few posts.

Edward, you have to stop accusing me of these “senationalist” type things when I am obviously not. I think you are kinda making yourself look bad. I don’t think your attempts to denigrate and minimize Mike are doing very well, either. Please try to consider that you might not know everything about Opus Dei.

But if you want to witness to how positive it has been for you, here in this is thread under this title in the Vocations forum would be a great place to do that. What’s your apostolate?

How well would you understand the spirit of America by reading the Federal Statutes?

Maybe read some of St Josmaria’s writings…maybe you’ll run across some point that will stir up some resolution for you, or a point that maybe some one you personally, not virtually, know can benefit from. Much more value than this thread.

 

[laudate4]

Thank you everyone for your responses.

For the record, I do believe sincerely that Opus Dei is a wonderful, wonderful organization (not saying that any of you denied this). That the prelature is, as its name indicates, truly the “Work of God.” I just wanted a clarification on a certain issue, and I think that I have found my answer from the responses which have been posted in this thread and also from the very kind/patient PMs which I have received.

Oh, and I’ve recently begun to read John Allen’s book on Opus Dei, which I have found to be very helpful as well!

 

[MichaelKirke]

In civil legislation, contracts are commitments which are binding and due
process is involved in their termination.

With regard to various issues raised in this thread I would like to make a few observations - in a personal capacity, although I am a member of Opus Dei.

Members of Opus Dei make commitments, not vows, but these are binding under
the laws of God’s Church and the due processes of that Church’s laws are
involved in their termination.

To terminate those commitments unilaterally would be contemptuous of that
law, and would constitute an offence against God.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Code of Canon Law explain the
binding nature of the Church’s laws and the degrees of gravity involved in
ignoring or disregarding them.

With regard to the allegation of secrecy, the Statutes of Opus Dei state in
article 89, section 2: “omnino simul vitat secretum vel clandestinitatem” //
at the same time completely forbids secrecy or concealment.

Members of Opus Dei abhor secrecy.

With regard to freedom in relation to choosing a priest for Confession, St
Josemaría constantly insisted that faithful of the Prelature should always
feel free to confess to whosoever they chose. But in the same breath, he
always pointed out the common and supernatural sense of choosing a confessor
who was familiar with the spirit underlying the vocation they had chosen to
respond to.

 

[Julia_Mae]

How well would you understand the spirit of America by reading the Federal Statutes?

I’m not sure there is any such thing as the “spirit of America.” But I think reading the Constitutions, just like reading the Opus Dei Constitutions, would be a good way of understanding the basic philosophy behind the body. There is, however, a delineated “spirit of Opus Dei” and you can read here Spirit of Opus Dei.

Maybe read some of St Josmaria’s writings…

The original Constitutions of Opus Dei are some of Josemaria’s writings. Here, BTW, is the statute in Latin and English I promised to post, this is from the 1982 Statutes which are an addendum to the 1950 Constitutions:

25 Incorporatio temporanea singulis annis ab unoquoque fideli singillatim renovatur. Ad hanc renovationem requiritur et sufficit licentia Vicarii Regionalis, qui, in casu dubii, suam Commissionem et Directorem localem cum ejus Consilio audire potest. Si nullum dubium subsit circa Vicarii renovationi contrariam voluntatem, et nihil ex parte Directoris obsit, licentia jure praesumitur et incorporatio temporanea renovari potest; jure item praesumitur renovationem tacite factam fuisse si fidelis prius non manifestaverit suam voluntatem renovationi contrariam; ipsa vero renovatio subiicitur condicioni resolutivae si Vicarius de ea certior factus, una cum Defensore et audita sua Commissione, contradicat.

Temporary incorporation for a single year is renewed individually by each of the faithful. For this renewal it is required and sufficient to have the permission of the Regional Vicar, who, in case of doubt, can consult his Commission and the local Director and his Council. If no doubt exists about the contrary will of the Vicar to the renewal, and nothing on the part of the Directors hinders it, the permission may be presumed by law and the temporary incorporation may be renewed. Also, by law it is assumed that the renewal has been made tacitly if the faithful does not previously manifest his contrary wish; indeed, the renewal is subordinated to the condition of resolution if, when the Vicar is informed of it, he contradicts it with the concurrence of the Defender and after having heard his Commission.

 

[Julia_Mae]

With regard to various issues raised in this thread I would like to make a few observations - in a personal capacity, although I am a member of Opus Dei.

What kind of member are you, Michael?

Members of Opus Dei make commitments, not vows, but these are binding under the laws of God’s Church and the due processes of that Church’s laws are
involved in their termination.

I don’t think so, Michael, but maybe you could provide a reference to some Canon Law about this? I can’t find anything. There are also these paragraphs that the Founder included in the Constitutions:

–52 S2
No special ceremony is prescribed for the incorporation of the Supernumeraries into the Institute; nevertheless, for them to pronounce the Oblation or the Fidelity, they are obligated to recite the formula of the vows in the presence of at least two witnesses.

–53 S1
For the Numeraries, the incorporation into the Institute accomplished through the Oblation, requires taking social vows of poverty, of chastity and of obedience.

–53 S2
These social vows, although they are not recognized as public vows according to the law (Canon 1308 S1), they are, nevertheless, recognized by the Church; wherefore they can also be called private vows, recognized. These cease in the case of dismissal or dissolution of the bond by which Numeraries are bound to the Institute, conceded by the Holy See, or the Father, as the case may be.

With regard to the allegation of secrecy, the Statutes of Opus Dei state in
article 89, section 2: “omnino simul vitat secretum vel clandestinitatem” //
at the same time completely forbids secrecy or concealment.

No one has “alleged” anything that I know of. And the phrase you posted, does, indeed, appear in that paragraph. Here are some other paragraphs that deal specifically with the topic, all of which were written by Josemaria Escriva, himself, in the 1950 Constitutions. I can supply them in Latin if you desire:

N189 In order for [Opus Dei] to reach its proper end more effectively, it wishes to live as hidden, therefore it abstains from collective acts and does not have a name or common denomination by which its members are called. Given the character of [Opus Dei], which externally does not desire to appear publicly as a society, it is not appropriate that its members should engage collectively in certain manifestations of cult like processions.

N190 By virtue of this collective humility, which is proper of our Institute [Opus Dei], whatever is done by the members is not attributable to itself; but rather, whatever good is attained by them is attributable to God alone. Consequently, even membership in [Opus Dei] admits no external manifestations. The number of members is kept hidden from outsiders; and indeed our people do not discuss these things with outsiders.

N191 This collective humility leads our people to live the life which they consecrate to God with the same discretion which is most suited to the desired fruitfulness of the apostolate. The lack of this discretion can constitute a grave obstacle to exercising apostolic work or create some difficulty in the environment of one’s natural family or in the exercise of their office or profession. Thus the Numerary and Supernumerary members should know they are to live a prudent silence regarding the names of other members; and that they are never to reveal to anyone that they themselves belong to Opus Dei, not even to spread the Institute, without express permission from their local director. This discretion especially binds those who are newly accepted in the Institute and also to those who, for whatever reason, have left the Institute. [Opus Dei] and some of its members, however, need to be known, because all our apostolic works develop and are carried out within the bounds of civil law and likewise, with the same strength of soul, each one of us, altogether shuns secrecy and clandestine activity, for the only thing which moves us to maintain this discretion is humility and a deeper and more fruitful apostolic efficacy.

N192 There is never permitted to be an insignia proper to the Institute, by which the members, priests or laity, would be distinguished from others.

N193 These Constitutions, published instructions and those which in the future may be published, and the other things pertaining to the government of [Opus Dei] are never to be made public. Indeed, without the permission of the Father, those documents which are written in the Latin language may not be translated into vernacular languages.

N194 In those points in which the Priestly Society of the Holy Cross, or Opus Dei falls under the civil law of their own region, they should faithfully submit to it. Other points which regard the internal government of [Opus Dei], the organization, customs, spirit, ceremonies and methods of apostolate, are permitted to be known only to the legitimate ecclesiastical authority.