Question about the Great Schism

[Hesychios]

The catholic NEW ADVENT is not a crediable source?

New Advent is not the author. New Advent, like CAF right here, provides a copy of the [old] Catholic Encyclopedia (out of copyright) as a free service. I think it has historical value, and I find it interesting to read. One can sometimes extract useful facts from it, which if true should be possible to confirm from other sources.

However, one should take great care when using it for support on issues regarding the eastern churches. It is unreliable.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

Obviously with a moritorium on the Catholic Faith there is still an abundant issue. And this article is also recent.

This is a scurrilous assertion that finds no support in any article you have cut and pasted here.

There is no “moratorium on the Catholic faith” in Russia. You are just peddling calumny and, as such, perpetuating misunderstanding and division.

Shame on you.

 

[GaryTaylor]

This is a scurrilous assertion that finds no support in any article you have cut and pasted here.

There is no “moratorium on the Catholic faith” in Russia. You are just peddling calumny and, as such, perpetuating misunderstanding and division.

Shame on you.

Your comments are insensitive, uncalled for, and very inaccurate.

Vatican City - The possibility of a visit by Pope Benedict XVI to Russia has moved “a little bit closer” following talks between Vatican representatives and the Russian Orthodox Church’s top envoy. Cardinal Walter Kasper, who heads the Vatican’s department on Christian unity, was commenting on Orthodox Archbishop Hilarion Alfeyev’s current visit to Rome.

First of all the Pope isn’t allowed in Russia, last time JP-II spoke their it was via the Media. Even this meeting with Benedict is taking place in a third world country. Why do you suppose that is?

Under Kirill, the Russian Orthodox Church began a bitter dispute with the Vatican over what it said were attempts by the Catholic Church to seek converts in Russian territory.

The tussle has prevented both the late John Paul II and his successor, Benedict, from visiting Russia as the Vatican has said such a trip would only take place in accordance with the wishes of the Russian Orthodox Church.

There is no freedom of the Pope deciding to visit Russia. Catholic numbers are controlled by the Russian politics.

In 2010 the situation has become somewhat more relaxed do the the relationship betweeen Benedict and Kirill. Apparently they consider themself friend now. Nonetheless the existing situation in Russia is for real with the Catholic Faith.

In Moscow alone there are 1 million Muslims today. That’s nearly ten times the number of Russian-born Catholics in all of Russia. Muslims now comprise about 5% of the total Russian population, outnumbering Catholics by anywhere from 30-to-1 to 60-to-1, depending on which statistics you use.

The expansion of Islam in Russia since “the fall of communism” in 1991 has been assured by Russia’s 1997 law on “freedom of religion,” which enshrines Islam, Judaism, Hinduism and, of course, Russian Orthodoxy as “traditional religions” entitled to legal existence. You’ll notice the Catholic Church isn’y on that list?

“The Catholic Church”, on the other hand, must register its “pastoral points” (which the Vatican will not call parishes, lest the Orthodox be offended) each year, and no foreign-born Catholic priest may remain in Russia for more than three months without leaving the country to renew his visa. Needless to say, the Catholic Church won’t be sinking any roots in Russia under this regimen.

My friend that is called a Moritorium on the Catholic Faith.

I also have all this on film also from the Blue Army but I have to download, upload etc. And really its common knowledge. But when I have the time I’ll post it for you.

Also I understand the New Advent isn’t the “author” its a title, I could give you the aurthors name is you’d like. Who has his E-Mail address on every article he posts which is related to the New Advent. The E-Mail address is there for error and updates. You can scroll to the very bottom of the page on any New Advent article and the date its updated will be noted.

Rarely will you find any which is older than 09, most fall in recent months. Is there historical facts which are old. oh no doubt. Thats history.

Russia doesn’t even want the Pope in Russia. Thats exactly why the first meeting is taking place in a third world country.

There is no Catholic growth in Russia. Thats called padding the statistic’s. Which btw seem to be comnon in certain religions. Islam for example in the USA does this. Nonetheless it is what it is.

This is a known fact, this is nothing new. Where Russia is going was really my concern. Which my original post indicates. Communism was never the correct term for Russia to begin with which I also mentioned. Marxism became the teaching with Socialism through Atheism which breeds an authoritarian state. Obviously to a large degree not much has changed. As I mentioned there is an appearence of capitalism.

What is capitalism without democracy but another form of dictatorship? You tell me?

The US is a Capitalist society right? Let me give you an example What if Obama decided he was to impose Marshall Law and there would be no 2012 election? [obviously this is just an example]. The USA would still be a Capitalist society. But it would no longer be a Democracy? Follow what I’m saying?

This is where I"m coming from when I say Russia now has Capitalist tendancys. But the country is not run by a Democracy.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Hesychios]

This is where I"m coming from when I say Russia now has Capitalist tendancys. But the country is not run by a Democracy.

God Bless, Gary

Off topic perhaps, but American foreign policy has usually favored capitalism over democracy.

The Roman Catholic church, like the Orthodox church, has not had a stong track record of promoting either democracy or freedom of religion. And athough I am in favor of them both and believe the church can thrive in the free marketpace of ideas the concepts of freedom of religion, freedom of conscience and democracy are not historically (or exclusively) Christian.

The types of things (laws and regulations) that may happen in Russia to encourage people to follow the Russian historic version Christianity and discourage other forms is by no means unique to Russia. In fact, some Eastern Catholic churches now under the Pope can trace their very foundation to religious intolerance in Catholic states. I don’t think that religious intolerance would go away in Russia if there were some kind of union between the Papacy and Russian Orthodoxy either. The unified church would still use whatever leverage it had to keep other religious groups out (as if that were really possible), but that would make these policies suddenly seem like a good thing to a lot of Catholics.

It hasn’t been until very recent times (in terms of church history, which requires a long view) that freedom of religion has been common in modern western states, and along with that has come many other liberal trends and social phenomena. Religious liberty is a baby in very dirty bathwater. So even in very open societies, churches try to exert their influence in legislative matters. I do not think that this is a bad thing necessarily, there are many social issues where the church’s voice should be heard.

I personally think it would be nice to see total religious liberty in Russia and other countries, but the policy has to be universal without exceptions, for example the Watchtower and the Mormons will spread just as rapidly (if not moreso) as any religious tradition you and I might really favor.

Perhaps the way around this is to continue dialog in mutual respect, promote cooperation in the hope of a future communion, and forget about proselytizing each other’s members.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

GaryTaylor;7919894] Communism was never the correct term for Russia to begin with which I also mentioned. Marxism became the teaching with Socialism through Atheism which breeds an authoritarian state. Obviously to a large degree not much has changed. As I mentioned there is an appearence of capitalism

.

The original ideology that Russia took to was “Scientific Socialism” based on the atheistic teachings of Darwinism which became known as “Communism”.

In keeping to the OP in regards to the so called “Great Schism”, Orthodoxy has always been influenced by its secular powers from history, preventing the unification of the Western and Eastern Catholic Church’s.

As you delicately mentioned from your passing commentaries. The government of Russia has laws in place to prevent any unification between the ROC and the Popes.

How would you perceive talks and removal of the schism between the Orthodox and the popes, if their secular governments remained neutral? What would the Orthodox work for if they can remove themselves away from their secular government controls?

The Pope is independent from secular government influences, thereby able to hold to the biblical teaching of “give to God what belongs to God” and “give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar”.

Orthodoxy delights in its freedom from the Popes but maintains its existence under secular powers. I find this to be a double standard as far as “What belongs to God is God’s and what belongs to Caesar is Caesars”.

If Orthodoxy could free itself from secular powerful influences and free herself to deal with the schism issues with the pope, progress could be more realistic.

Which leads one to conclude who is running the Orthodox Church? Her bishops or governments? Because the “authority” issue is always a factor between the Orthodox and the Popes, in any meaningful talks.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

Which leads one to conclude who is running the Orthodox Church? Her bishops or governments? Because the “authority” issue is always a factor between the Orthodox and the Popes, in any meaningful talks.

Jesus Christ is the head of his bride, the Church. Isn’t His authority sufficient?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Off topic perhaps, but American foreign policy has usually favored capitalism over democracy.

The Roman Catholic church, like the Orthodox church, has not had a stong track record of promoting either democracy or freedom of religion. And athough I am in favor of them both and believe the church can thrive in the free marketpace of ideas the concepts of freedom of religion, freedom of conscience and democracy are not historically (or exclusively) Christian.

The types of things (laws and regulations) that may happen in Russia to encourage people to follow the Russian historic version Christianity and discourage other forms is by no means unique to Russia. In fact, some Eastern Catholic churches now under the Pope can trace their very foundation to religious intolerance in Catholic states. I don’t think that religious intolerance would go away in Russia if there were some kind of union between the Papacy and Russian Orthodoxy either. The unified church would still use whatever leverage it had to keep other religious groups out (as if that were really possible), but that would make these policies suddenly seem like a good thing to a lot of Catholics.

It hasn’t been until very recent times (in terms of church history, which requires a long view) that freedom of religion has been common in modern western states, and along with that has come many other liberal trends and social phenomena. Religious liberty is a baby in very dirty bathwater. So even in very open societies, churches try to exert their influence in legislative matters. I do not think that this is a bad thing necessarily, there are many social issues where the church’s voice should be heard.

I personally think it would be nice to see total religious liberty in Russia and other countries, but the policy has to be universal without exceptions, for example the Watchtower and the Mormons will spread just as rapidly (if not moreso) as any religious tradition you and I might really favor.

Perhaps the way around this is to continue dialog in mutual respect, promote cooperation in the hope of a future communion, and forget about proselytizing each other’s members.

Michael your right you know what, Christians are faced with difficult situation’s constantly in History. I don’t envy any of them making the hard choices. Russia is just one of the many, that at the moment is more difficult than others.

Personally the USA has become a concern. Hey its no mystery we have a President who publicly announced…“We are no longer just a Christian Country”. I find that alarming.

The Sin count between Russia and the USA I would bet isn’t very different

I’m sure the elect of both the EO and CC face tough choices constantly in History.

One fact is certain the situation in Russia is getting better thus far. I just read the report today about the Blue Army returning a Shrine which was taken during the Communism period for safe keeping. So I do see a working relationship.

But living the NT and Loving your enemies has been a brutal path thus far.

God Bless, Gary

 

[GaryTaylor]

Jesus Christ is the head of his bride, the Church. Isn’t His authority sufficient?

Well my brother there lies the dabate. Because that would be the bottom line. So yes his Word is law.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Jesus Christ is the head of his bride, the Church. Isn’t His authority sufficient?

Sure He is, what is your point? How does this equate with the powers and principalities of evil that come against His authority?

Orthodoxy remains under the authority of secular powers, The point I raise, what would the Orthodox Church look like today without these secular powers and principalities that have hindered Her from tending the flock of Jesus from Her God given authority.

John 14:2
In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be.
4
Where (I) am going you know the way."

Now that Jesus has gone to prepare a place for you, this is why Jesus placed HIS authority on earth.

Matthew 16:18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

And before Jesus ascended into heaven Jesus reminded our first Pope to tend his flock until he returns;

John 21;15
8 9 10 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, **“Feed my lambs.” **
16
He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, **“Tend my sheep.” **
17
[He said to him the third time,/B] “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep. **

What the heck are secular powers doing meddling in God’s Church, when God placed His authority upon Peter and His apostles to tend and feed His flock, not Darwinism, Communism, or independent christians holding to their own authority apart from the body of Christ which is His Catholic (universal) Church.

Any other questions to authority?**

 

[Bluegoat]

.

The original ideology that Russia took to was “Scientific Socialism” based on the atheistic teachings of Darwinism which became known as “Communism”.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

GaryTaylor;7919894] “Communism was never the correct term for Russia”

Communism is an ideology invented by man incorrectly applied to identify Russia. This original ideology was called “Scientific Socialism” before it graduated to Russia’s ideology of “communism”, which makes man a god and rejects mans creator, adopting “Darwinism”.

The True Orthodox battles this beast from within her borders, while the Catholic church faces this beast and battles it from the outside creating an ongoing “schism” between the ROC and the Latin Catholic Church and not allowing this wound to heal.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Gabe,

Blessings to you as always, brother. I wouldn’t throw the secular bedfellows argument at Orthodoxy too hard. You have to remember the difficult history they’ve endured. Islam conquered the Eastern Empire just as barbarianism conquered the West. The Pope had to learn to cozy up to guys like Clovis and Charlemagne in order to survive, the East had to cooperate with Islam and Communism to survive. Tough times for both, truly.

The popes cooperated with barbarians and look at how the pope crowned Charlemagne as a Roman Emperor when he obviously had no authority to do so in Eastern eyes. He also rapidly dipped into secular matters more often that not. The Pope himself epitomizes politics as he is not only a religious figure of enormous magnitude but a head of state, the Vatican. So the idea that he has no political interests or influence is not compelling to me. When the Church is dishing out voters’ guides telling people how to vote and the pope is the chief of state for his own tiny country and has gotten this deeply involved in the affairs of Western Europe, I can’t judge the Orthodox at all for their secular experiences.

Look at Spain and Portugal. The pope was deciding on issues about slavery, who gets to conquer which lands, who gets to travel to which parts of the New World, etc. Do you remember the Treaty of Tordesillas? The Pope was deciding for Portugal and Spain who gets to carve up the New World, which zones the Catholics would conquer and which Indians to dominate, etc. The popes and the Church have dictated scientific matters for centuries, all sorts of things. They have had their hands in the cookie jar more than once.

Orthodoxy developed in different nations under communist and Islamic dictatorships, fighting for its life. And I’m impressed by the consistency, morality, and theological sanctity they’ve maintained amidst such a series of nightmares! Look at Russia—from feudalism to communism to fledgling democracy in 100 years or so, amazing!?

.

The original ideology that Russia took to was “Scientific Socialism” based on the atheistic teachings of Darwinism which became known as “Communism”.

In keeping to the OP in regards to the so called “Great Schism”, Orthodoxy has always been influenced by its secular powers from history, preventing the unification of the Western and Eastern Catholic Church’s.

As you delicately mentioned from your passing commentaries. The government of Russia has laws in place to prevent any unification between the ROC and the Popes.

How would you perceive talks and removal of the schism between the Orthodox and the popes, if their secular governments remained neutral? What would the Orthodox work for if they can remove themselves away from their secular government controls?

The Pope is independent from secular government influences, thereby able to hold to the biblical teaching of “give to God what belongs to God” and “give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar”.

Orthodoxy delights in its freedom from the Popes but maintains its existence under secular powers. I find this to be a double standard as far as “What belongs to God is God’s and what belongs to Caesar is Caesars”.

If Orthodoxy could free itself from secular powerful influences and free herself to deal with the schism issues with the pope, progress could be more realistic.

Which leads one to conclude who is running the Orthodox Church? Her bishops or governments? Because the “authority” issue is always a factor between the Orthodox and the Popes, in any meaningful talks.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Did the Russian Orthodox have a choice though? Poland had the luxury of having a pope that came from there to champion the Solidarity movement. The lowly Russians had only themselves and their fellow Orthodox in other lands to fight communism. Think about how many Orthodox countries had to suffer under communism—Serbia, Russia, Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, etc. These matters boil down to geography. The West didn’t have the KGB and GRU holding a gun to their head so they could protest and shout all they wanted. Protesting in the USSR was no easy feat, ask Solzhenitsyn!

GaryTaylor;7919894] “Communism was never the correct term for Russia”

Communism is an ideology invented by man incorrectly applied to identify Russia. This original ideology was called “Scientific Socialism” before it graduated to Russia’s ideology of “communism”, which makes man a god and rejects mans creator, adopting “Darwinism”.

The True Orthodox battles this beast from within her borders, while the Catholic church faces this beast and battles it from the outside creating an ongoing “schism” between the ROC and the Latin Catholic Church and not allowing this wound to heal.

 

[GaryTaylor]

GaryTaylor;7919894] “Communism was never the correct term for Russia”

Communism is an ideology invented by man incorrectly applied to identify Russia. This original ideology was called “Scientific Socialism” before it graduated to Russia’s ideology of “communism”, which makes man a god and rejects mans creator, adopting “Darwinism”.

The True Orthodox battles this beast from within her borders, while the Catholic church faces this beast and battles it from the outside creating an ongoing “schism” between the ROC and the Latin Catholic Church and not allowing this wound to heal.

One only need study Lenin to understand where his thinking came from. And that was Marxism. Then he created the Communist party.

Regardless, its not really the point. We have to be able to work together to overcome the demonic force which controls divides and drags off souls. Keep people unable to talk, limited, enslaved, controled.

While we can say that rulers amd tyrants and satan play their role. And they certainly do, The feelings of inviduals within the Christian elect are also an obstacle.

Heck it took till Benedict and Kirill actually personally got know each other that they realized they actually like each other. But when its a major project for two people to even meet? How fast is anything going to happen?

Had this been the 20-30 years ago we could say, eh were in pretty good shape. Today? We don’t know whats gonna happen from minute to minute. Water, famine, war and violence, population etc. Are all constantly growing factors.

Me I’m gonna have a great Memorial Day. But I’ll tell I have these heart to heart conversations with the kids and grandchildren are to young. But you have to wonder about the childrens, childrens, children.

The 2000 we managed to survive, are now past the point of no return. They way we live, there not another 2000 to be had. Were down to decades now. Could you image that nut in Iran with Nuclear Warheads?

God Bless Gary

 

[GaryTaylor]

Did the Russian Orthodox have a choice though? Poland had the luxury of having a pope that came from there to champion the Solidarity movement. The lowly Russians had only themselves and their fellow Orthodox in other lands to fight communism. Think about how many Orthodox countries had to suffer under communism—Serbia, Russia, Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, etc. These matters boil down to geography. The West didn’t have the KGB and GRU holding a gun to their head so they could protest and shout all they wanted. Protesting in the USSR was no easy feat, ask Solzhenitsyn!

There it is, just look at Poland? Would we have survived that as the USA?

But your right you have take a “lot” into consideration.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

gurneyhalleck1;7922327]

Blessings to you as always, brother. I wouldn’t throw the secular bedfellows argument at Orthodoxy too hard. You have to remember the difficult history they’ve endured. Islam conquered the Eastern Empire just as barbarianism conquered the West. The Pope had to learn to cozy up to guys like Clovis and Charlemagne in order to survive, the East had to cooperate with Islam and Communism to survive. Tough times for both, truly.

Blessings to you gurney, I agree with you’re post. Both East and West have had to endure hardships and contend with their secular powers.

Much of the difference is that in the west most of its secular powers converted to Catholicism, whereby in the East its secular powers they have to contend with have been heretics, or non Catholic Christians, these Eastern secular powers is what influenced division between East and Western Catholic Church, and continue to enforce the schism between East and West.

The Orthodox martyrs under these political regimes is seed that is planted, just as the Western martyrs planted their seed for the growth of God’s Church. We have to remember the Western Catholic clergy have also suffered persecutions from the Eastern secular powers while living with in their borders.

The West is not immune to secularism or secular powerful influence, she battles them daily without rest, running the race of the gospel, both internationally and at the local levels.

True Orthodoxy has suffered tremendously, and I believe the Popes can help their political situation because of Peter’s experience. Orthodoxy has paid a high price for remaining faithful to the gospel. May God bless them and may their martyrs blood reap great dividends for the body of Christ.

What others have pointed out here, is that the Orthodox Church clergy was infected by political appointments, while the True Orthodox clergy was replaced and or executed, something the western Church is very familiar with and finally removed the pope and the magisterium from secular political influences.

Please don’t read me wrong, I am for the Orthodox Church practicing their Catholic faith independent from any secular political influence. The unChristian eastern political powers do not want their Orthodox Church community in full communion with the popes, because they think it jeopardizes their government powers. The Pope does not want control of their politics, economics or turn their people against them. The Pope is commanded by Christ to teach, tend and feed the flock of Christ on faith and morals within their borders.

That is why I introduced the biblical teaching “give to God what belongs to God” and give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar".

 

[Wesley7]

It is probably just that Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are two separate and different religions.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

It is probably just that Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are two separate and different religions.

How do you come to the conclusion that two different religions exist between Orthodox and Roman Catholicism?

Currently all that seperates them is a “tear” =schism. Remove the schism and you have the same One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Catholicity exist between the two branches of Catholicism stemming from the same vine =Jesus Christ. Where they differ is in culture, language, and rites, although diversifed in these areas, all lead to the same revelations of Jesus Christ both in Liturgy and faith.

The valid sacramental economy in the mysteries revealed by Jesus Christ, as well as Holy Orders in the priesthood of Jesus Christ, since apostolic times, exist in both Left and Right side in the body of Jesus Christ, who is our head.

To define them as two seperate different religions becomes a burden to prove by anyone? Because there can only be “One faith, One body, One baptism, in One Lord Jesus Christ.”

It may not appear so on the surface by Orthodox protests who refuse communion with the popes, yet these are more closely related to each other in both practice and faith than any protestant christian church who left the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Blessings to you gurney, I agree with you’re post. Both East and West have had to endure hardships and contend with their secular powers.

Much of the difference is that in the west most of its secular powers converted to Catholicism, whereby in the East its secular powers they have to contend with have been heretics, or non Catholic Christians, these Eastern secular powers is what influenced division between East and Western Catholic Church, and continue to enforce the schism between East and West.

The Orthodox martyrs under these political regimes is seed that is planted, just as the Western martyrs planted their seed for the growth of God’s Church. We have to remember the Western Catholic clergy have also suffered persecutions from the Eastern secular powers while living with in their borders.

The West is not immune to secularism or secular powerful influence, she battles them daily without rest, running the race of the gospel, both internationally and at the local levels.

True Orthodoxy has suffered tremendously, and I believe the Popes can help their political situation because of Peter’s experience. Orthodoxy has paid a high price for remaining faithful to the gospel. May God bless them and may their martyrs blood reap great dividends for the body of Christ.

What others have pointed out here, is that the Orthodox Church clergy was infected by political appointments, while the True Orthodox clergy was replaced and or executed, something the western Church is very familiar with and finally removed the pope and the magisterium from secular political influences.

Please don’t read me wrong, I am for the Orthodox Church practicing their Catholic faith independent from any secular political influence. The unChristian eastern political powers do not want their Orthodox Church community in full communion with the popes, because they think it jeopardizes their government powers. The Pope does not want control of their politics, economics or turn their people against them. The Pope is commanded by Christ to teach, tend and feed the flock of Christ on faith and morals within their borders.

That is why I introduced the biblical teaching “give to God what belongs to God” and give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar".

Nice post Gabe.

May God have Mercy on us.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

Although most Protestants use “Christian Church” in the Apostle’s Creed instead of “Catholic Church”.

In fact here in Austria I’ve only heard “Christian Church” in the Lutheran Church, the (Swiss)-Reformed Church and the Austrian Baptist Church.

That MAY be the practice in Austria, but it is certainly not universal. In most English speaking countries, the word catholic (with a small c) is used, meaning Universal but NOT Roman Catholic.