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Wesley7
Guest
Orthodox saying there’s a problem with the doctrinal claims of the papacy.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
“Authority” is an issue yet to be cleared up between “some” of the Orthodox not all of the Orthodox Church. But this issue of authority dispute does not justify two distinct “different religions”?
What we have here is two adolescents pointing the finger at each other, from the same household. Not two different religions (households).
Can you reveal how you see two different religions? Disputes between these two over doctrines can last over centuries and is not a reason to view them as two different religions.
I don’t like Orthodox refusing communion to one of there brethren, but that does not make me of a different religion.
There exist some Orthodox that remain in heresy today, yet they are of the same apostolic foundation since apostolic times. This still does not reveal two different religions.
One day these will be united to Peter again along with the other Orthodox.
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Wesley7
Guest
So, then, you’re now saying Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism are the same? . .
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
What makes you think that the East will reunite with Rome, Gabe? I don’t see any hint of this or any common agreement in a vast myriad of areas that would give me the slightest hope at this point that this could happen? If it were just the filioque, the language could be changed or dropped or something. But at this point it’s far more than the filioque, it’s an entire mindset. The liturgy, spirituality, atonement, original sin, emphases, polity, and the big elephant in the room that there is no way the East will accept—Universal Papal Supremacy and Infallibility…that will just not happen?
The “two lungs” language did not help matters at all. Vatican II and its affects on the liturgy sure didn’t help. John Paul II kissing the Koran affected morale horribly. And Benedict XVI saying that Orthodoxy is “defective” because it lacks the papacy was inflamatory and caused hard feelings. Add to those factors the idea of the papacy as universal supreme pastor over all bishops with infallibility, that is icing on the cake. I just can’t see how East and West would reunite.
I think because some Anglicans have come back to Rome, this causes some posters to get excited about the notion that the Orthodox will do the same. The Orthodox are not of the same mindset about salvation, polity, and liturgy that the Anglicans and Catholics are from. The Anglicans and Catholics have so much in common with mindset, liturgy, and spirituality as well as a common past. The East is an all together different organism IMO.
For reunion to happen the pope would have to drop the idea of infallibility and universal supremacy and admit to being the Coryphaeus again, the primacy of honor and respect without the all-encompassing and sweeping powers claimed post schism. The filioque would have to be dropped and I’m sure the Orthodox would be comforted by the fact that the Catholic Church has gotten strict with crack-downs on liturgical abuse. The liturgical ballet dancers and the wild rainbow-colored robes, the relaxed atmosphere and poor wording in the liturgy, this would need to disappear. There would need to be strong re-orientation to the past and tradition and a return to the mindset of pre-Vatican II. Do all these things and then I’d say the East might want a reunion!
The “two lungs” language did not help matters at all. Vatican II and its affects on the liturgy sure didn’t help. John Paul II kissing the Koran affected morale horribly. And Benedict XVI saying that Orthodoxy is “defective” because it lacks the papacy was inflamatory and caused hard feelings. Add to those factors the idea of the papacy as universal supreme pastor over all bishops with infallibility, that is icing on the cake. I just can’t see how East and West would reunite.
I think because some Anglicans have come back to Rome, this causes some posters to get excited about the notion that the Orthodox will do the same. The Orthodox are not of the same mindset about salvation, polity, and liturgy that the Anglicans and Catholics are from. The Anglicans and Catholics have so much in common with mindset, liturgy, and spirituality as well as a common past. The East is an all together different organism IMO.
For reunion to happen the pope would have to drop the idea of infallibility and universal supremacy and admit to being the Coryphaeus again, the primacy of honor and respect without the all-encompassing and sweeping powers claimed post schism. The filioque would have to be dropped and I’m sure the Orthodox would be comforted by the fact that the Catholic Church has gotten strict with crack-downs on liturgical abuse. The liturgical ballet dancers and the wild rainbow-colored robes, the relaxed atmosphere and poor wording in the liturgy, this would need to disappear. There would need to be strong re-orientation to the past and tradition and a return to the mindset of pre-Vatican II. Do all these things and then I’d say the East might want a reunion!
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The_Sentry
Guest
Amen and amen. The Church needs a strong & vocal rejection of the garbage that has come out of the Sixties, and a return to committed Traditional practice in the face of so many challenges. Such things (according to my Orthodox friends) would make a strong impression on amiable Orthodox minds, and would go a long way in showing a face of the Western Church that looks more familiar to them.For reunion to happen the pope would have to drop the idea of infallibility and universal supremacy and admit to being the Coryphaeus again, the primacy of honor and respect without the all-encompassing and sweeping powers claimed post schism. The filioque would have to be dropped and I’m sure the Orthodox would be comforted by the fact that the Catholic Church has gotten strict with crack-downs on liturgical abuse. The liturgical ballet dancers and the wild rainbow-colored robes, the relaxed atmosphere and poor wording in the liturgy, this would need to disappear. There would need to be strong re-orientation to the past and tradition and a return to the mindset of pre-Vatican II. Do all these things and then I’d say the East might want a reunion!
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GaryTaylor
Guest
The dialogue is much further along than this forum gives any idea of. Its impossible for the churchs not to unite. Did you read Benedicts “Light of the World”? He gives a very good description in exactly where they stand in regards to communion.What makes you think that the East will reunite with Rome, Gabe? I don’t see any hint of this or any common agreement in a vast myriad of areas that would give me the slightest hope at this point that this could happen? If it were just the filioque, the language could be changed or dropped or something. But at this point it’s far more than the filioque, it’s an entire mindset. The liturgy, spirituality, atonement, original sin, emphases, polity, and the big elephant in the room that there is no way the East will accept—Universal Papal Supremacy and Infallibility…that will just not happen?
I just can’t see how East and West would reunite.
For reunion to happen the pope would have to drop the idea of infallibility and universal supremacy and admit to being the Coryphaeus again, the primacy of honor and respect without the all-encompassing and sweeping powers claimed post schism. The filioque would have to be dropped and I’m sure the Orthodox would be comforted by the fact that the Catholic Church has gotten strict with crack-downs on liturgical abuse. The liturgical ballet dancers and the wild rainbow-colored robes, the relaxed atmosphere and poor wording in the liturgy, this would need to disappear. There would need to be strong re-orientation to the past and tradition and a return to the mindset of pre-Vatican II. Do all these things and then I’d say the East might want a reunion!
The debates of doctrine are not an issue. Defining the specific tasks of the Pope and Dominus Iesus is an issue. And thats where they are at. Aside from there public press coverage about investigating pre-schism in order to see what is possibly missed.
All the nonsense promoted on this board is exactly that. The filioque, marian doctine none of them are issues. The Byzantine Mass as opposed to the TLM is not an issue. Robes the Priests wear in service all have a specific purpose, Thats not going to change. Thats all pre Vatican II. Back to Vatican I will take time.
The biggest issue both Kirill and Benedict speak about is the ability for people of the same faith who have been seperated for centurys to live the NT Gospel in harmony and with love and respect for each other.
As you see here on this forum, thats a long way off. The petty likes/dislikes issues do nothing to promote communion, they promote division. If you don’t like to confess in confessional, talk to the Priest and confess in a relaxed atmosphere at a table etc. When you come across a Mass the boarders Protestant and it offends you seek out a TLM. Infallibility isn’t going anywhere simple fact. Who am I to judge that?
If we are going sit here and call EO heretics and insist on doctrinal differences then what will this accomplish? Arguements over who is right and who is wrong is pure waste of time in regards to how the schism came about. Catholics saying I wouldn’t even walk in an EO do to herey. It doesn’t help. These are the gripes we hear on this board voiced by members who know exactly what? What they heard, read from someone who isn’t involved in the process of communion, or pure speculation.
I find it as no surprize that a good majority of posters are here from the USA speak so loosely on this topic. When in fact we have basically grew up with a silver spoon in our mouth. And do to none of us but our forefathers. In other words we are by lifestyle entitled to have come to believe we can somehow speak for Gods church when things are going well in the Land of the Free? I didn’t see anyone in Alabama when a city was wiped out talking about anything but, Thank God.
There are so many variables to this which the church automatically unites, the gripes on the balance scale count for nothing. Its that or we continue to suffer together seperated.
Will it happen in my life or your life? Probly not, but the will of each individual to promote common bonds becomes a responsibility as a Christian. When people say “well what can I do as an individual”? You can be a power of example. Instead of being part of the problem you can be part of the solution.
The church runs from inside and outside. And perfect example of it is Fatima or Lourdes. Had that not happened and there been such a conversion of Hundreds of Thousands. Then do you think the church would promote Marian Devotion as they do? I would bet the Pope is still skeptical about all that? Serious, he admits he’s not a mystic.
The question is does Holy Spirit reside in the CC and the EO? Is eternal salvation possible in either of these churchs? If so then what is the issue? Does the World automatically become a better place to live in communion? Does it bring the will of God closer to His Word through scripture? All these are a resounding yes. And are the reason to work on communion. Or roll the dice and let God do his will with Islam and the rest of the chaos.
Add on top of that the idea what if their right with the Blue Army and Fatima? World Peace becomes a reality. Never happened in the history of mankind.
There’s nothing else to lose but what little we have left that somehow we think is something? We only have to gain, I see no choice and no other way.
God Bless, Gary
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Wesley7
Guest
FYI, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew has been in dialogue with the Catholic Pope.
At least they’re not declaring anathemas. God bless
At least they’re not declaring anathemas. God bless
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Their conversation is also discussed in Light of the World by Benedict 2010. I acknowledge their situation. No hard feelings their.
God Bless, Gary
God Bless, Gary
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dzheremi
Guest
What gives you this idea?
Or this one?
What’s gotten into you? Of course they are.
You are aware that the EO reject Vatican I (and indeed all post-Schism councils) as well, right?
“Petty”? What we each believe about God and the Church is “petty”? Well then why can it not be that YOUR CHURCH is the one full of “petty” beliefs that we can discard in favor of false union? Because that’s all you’re promoting by posting this way.
Everyone is someone to judge that, because these are the kinds of things you’re asking someone outside of your communion to accept just because you do. And that’s ridiculous, because true dialogue and true communion cannot work this way. You have to take your partner’s concerns as equal to yours, and I say what you’ve presented above are lousy choices and I ought not to have accepted such false dichotomies when I was in union with Rome (and it is partially because I don’t that I no longer am), and now that I am not in union with Rome I am not going to somehow find them acceptable just because you want to reunite more than you want to think about the implications of uniting. That’s foolish.
Everyone is involved in the “process of communion”, if by that you mean the process by which the two communions come to know the operating principles by which communion is sustained within the church. If you know the EO, you know that if it was enough to have Patriarch Kirill and Pope Benedict nearly agree (or however close you see them) for communion to be re-established, then we wouldn’t be having this conversation. As it is, even the Patriarch were to agree to commune with Pope Benedict TODAY, all that would happen is that laaaaarge sections of the Eastern Orthodox world would freak out, and his decision would not be accepted. Heck, the monks of Mt. Athos would not even accept the very tentative wording of the documents that came out of the inter-Orthodox dialogues that took place in Switzerland in 1990…what on God’s green earth makes you think that they would see communion with Rome in any better light?
The vast majority of Orthodox people are not from and do not live in the USA or other pampered Western societies. And, of course, this is also true of the vast majority of the world’s Catholics. This is a red herring if I’ve ever seen one.
What does this have to do with anything? And couldn’t it be argued that since thousands upon thousands have seen similar miracles and apparitions and NOT converted that the RC church is in over its head with a bunch of devotions that, in effect, cannot be challenged, whether or not they’re “rightly promoted” or bounding upon the faithful? (Sorry, this is something of a sticking point with me, as someone who never understood this aspect of Catholicism; I can’t for the life of me see how this says anything one way or another about Catholicism’s supposed “truth”.)
A great many things which may be possible (as all things are possible through God’s will and action) are easier or more difficult depending on the circumstances we find ourselves in. You as a Catholic must believe that even if other churches or religions may not ultimately close a person off completely from God’s mercy, the Catholic Church is, in essence, where everyone should be, or would be were there not all these other less-correct – but to some people, more attractive – options out there (free will being what it is…)
Basically, I don’t see what you’re getting at here, Gary.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
The deterioration of Earth. Mankind, and the insanity we’ve come to accept here in the USA.
The only thing thats gotten into me is what I’m actually reading through Benedict. And what I’m hearing here. And I haven’t heard the Patriarchs contradict the statements since 2010. I may have missed something though.
Of course. I see the 7th.
I think you asumed the wrong thing here. What we believe in as God as Christians is the main point in communion. I haven’t heard anyone say otherwise. To live that NT is the point.
My point is I do not feel qualified to judge that. So it makes me apprehensive. I’ve read extensively on in and I’m not convinced there’s not truth there.
I understand what your saying. But these have not been hostile conversations. I see these elect communicatiing in a Christian way of respect and Love. At least as of most recent.
I’m talking about the number of US citizens or those from the West from EO and CC commenting on CAF as opposed to what I"m hearing from others who are living in Russia or the East.
Its predicted verse in Isaiah. We know the amount of Verse’s is 2/3 which have already came to pass. All I"m saying is on top of everything else, what if its true? You seen the Coptic in Egypt in 69. Nothing to any of it? To me its something which cannot be ignored. Your entitled to feel different.
I believe I said something in relation somewhere. My point still gets back to the world situation and a continued effort to work in the right direction in a positive way for the unity of Gods church.A great many things which may be possible (as all things are possible through God’s will and action) are easier or more difficult depending on the circumstances we find ourselves in. You as a Catholic must believe that even if other churches or religions may not ultimately close a person off completely from God’s mercy, e Catholic Church is, in essence, where everyone should be, or would be were there not all these other less-correct – but to some people, more attractive – options out there (free will being what it is…)
Communion really.
God Bless, Gary
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dzheremi
Guest
Alright, I’m still not really getting how any of this points to any inevitable communion between the Orthodox and the Catholics, but I guess that’s of no consequence. I’d only like to point out that in making the judgments you have made (regarding this or that aspect of the relationships between the churches at any level), you’re already engaging in the judgment you say you aren’t comfortable making.
And regarding Zeitoun, whether anyone believes it or not it remains the case that there’s nothing to any vision that should so radically take hold of our faith at it seems that sometimes these, uh…extra-ecclesiastical events do in the RC (and maybe other places too, I don’t know). They can strengthen it, they can be signs to give the believer hope…but to say that such and such a thing must happen or (even worse) to develop any number of new devotions or novel understandings based on a supposed vision? No. This is not Christianity.
And regarding Zeitoun, whether anyone believes it or not it remains the case that there’s nothing to any vision that should so radically take hold of our faith at it seems that sometimes these, uh…extra-ecclesiastical events do in the RC (and maybe other places too, I don’t know). They can strengthen it, they can be signs to give the believer hope…but to say that such and such a thing must happen or (even worse) to develop any number of new devotions or novel understandings based on a supposed vision? No. This is not Christianity.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Well, considering its been some years, what surprized me was Benedict at Fatima last May, talking about this is not over yet.Alright, I’m still not really getting how any of this points to any inevitable communion between the Orthodox and the Catholics, but I guess that’s of no consequence. I’d only like to point out that in making the judgments you have made (regarding this or that aspect of the relationships between the churches at any level), you’re already engaging in the judgment you say you aren’t comfortable making.
And regarding Zeitoun, whether anyone believes it or not it remains the case that there’s nothing to any vision that should so radically take hold of our faith at it seems that sometimes these, uh…extra-ecclesiastical events do in the RC (and maybe other places too, I don’t know). They can strengthen it, they can be signs to give the believer hope…but to say that such and such a thing must happen or (even worse) to develop any number of new devotions or novel understandings based on a supposed vision? No. This is not Christianity.
I agree with the thinking of Devotions, Private revelations etc.
Theres no doubt knowledge also, that you and I will probly never have access to. Thats what spins the wheels for me.
As far as the BVM thats just ancient History in the church. So ancient the Byzantine Church dates artifacts to the 2nd century. Marys reality is Christain History also. What Gods will is for Mary remians to be seen.
I don’t know of a better plan for plan for world peace, nor have I heard anyone talking about one. Has to make you wonder when we live in Gods creation.
God Bless, Gary
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Well I can’t say what secret knowledge anyone has about progress toward healing the schism between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I also can’t speak to the cynicism either. All I can say is that if the Orthodox Church acquiesces to the idea of the pope being universally the pastor over all bishops including the Eastern patriarchs/bishops and they accept papal infallibility, I would be in more shock than if the Kardashians start a think tank. 
I don’t see it happening. The ideas on both sides need to be reciprocated. If the Orthodox were willing to put up with the post-Vatican II Catholic Church and many of the ideas that disturb the East like indulgences, scholasticism, rules and procedures, etc. they’d still have to clear the hurdle of what Vatican I declared the pope to be. Something would have to give. I do not foresee the Catholic Church admitting they were wrong with Vatican I and I don’t anticipate Orthodoxy agreeing to the conditions of Vatican I. That equals no progress in my book.
I also think that many Catholics feel that Orthodoxy doesn’t feel complete without the West. That is a false notion that my experience in reading and studying and knowing Orthodox Christians tells me they don’t buy into. The two lungs thinking, the urging to reunify, I don’t see it. I just can’t believe that Rome would drop their papal claims and that Orthodoxy would accept them. The rest like the filioque and spirituality, liturgy, and other differences are minute in comparison with the elephant in the room----the papacy.
I don’t see it happening. The ideas on both sides need to be reciprocated. If the Orthodox were willing to put up with the post-Vatican II Catholic Church and many of the ideas that disturb the East like indulgences, scholasticism, rules and procedures, etc. they’d still have to clear the hurdle of what Vatican I declared the pope to be. Something would have to give. I do not foresee the Catholic Church admitting they were wrong with Vatican I and I don’t anticipate Orthodoxy agreeing to the conditions of Vatican I. That equals no progress in my book.
I also think that many Catholics feel that Orthodoxy doesn’t feel complete without the West. That is a false notion that my experience in reading and studying and knowing Orthodox Christians tells me they don’t buy into. The two lungs thinking, the urging to reunify, I don’t see it. I just can’t believe that Rome would drop their papal claims and that Orthodoxy would accept them. The rest like the filioque and spirituality, liturgy, and other differences are minute in comparison with the elephant in the room----the papacy.
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Harpazo
Guest
This has been my experience as well. To be honest, I was extremely optimistic of reunion when I was RC that I made bubbly school girls tame.Well I can’t say what secret knowledge anyone has about progress toward healing the schism between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I also can’t speak to the cynicism either. All I can say is that if the Orthodox Church acquiesces to the idea of the pope being universally the pastor over all bishops including the Eastern patriarchs/bishops and they accept papal infallibility, I would be in more shock than if the Kardashians start a think tank.
I don’t see it happening. The ideas on both sides need to be reciprocated. If the Orthodox were willing to put up with the post-Vatican II Catholic Church and many of the ideas that disturb the East like indulgences, scholasticism, rules and procedures, etc. they’d still have to clear the hurdle of what Vatican I declared the pope to be. Something would have to give. I do not foresee the Catholic Church admitting they were wrong with Vatican I and I don’t anticipate Orthodoxy agreeing to the conditions of Vatican I. That equals no progress in my book.
I also think that many Catholics feel that Orthodoxy doesn’t feel complete without the West. That is a false notion that my experience in reading and studying and knowing Orthodox Christians tells me they don’t buy into. The two lungs thinking, the urging to reunify, I don’t see it. I just can’t believe that Rome would drop their papal claims and that Orthodoxy would accept them. The rest like the filioque and spirituality, liturgy, and other differences are minute in comparison with the elephant in the room----the papacy.
I haven’t met any Orthodox in real life or online that doesn’t want Rome and Orthodoxy to return to full communion, but we have to be real about the situation and you have demonstrated the view I have found from talking to laity, monks and priests (and that I have subscribed to).In Christ,
Andrew
In Christ,
Andrew
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Well it probly won’t change at all or very little in our lives. I’m anxious to see the next public dialogue by Benedict. And he’s admitted he very well may not be alive but through the will of God to even reach that point. Looking back at the decades, the point they have together bought this to today says something in itself.Well I can’t say what secret knowledge anyone has about progress toward healing the schism between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I also can’t speak to the cynicism either. All I can say is that if the Orthodox Church acquiesces to the idea of the pope being universally the pastor over all bishops including the Eastern patriarchs/bishops and they accept papal infallibility, I would be in more shock than if the Kardashians start a think tank.
I don’t see it happening. The ideas on both sides need to be reciprocated. If the Orthodox were willing to put up with the post-Vatican II Catholic Church and many of the ideas that disturb the East like indulgences, scholasticism, rules and procedures, etc. they’d still have to clear the hurdle of what Vatican I declared the pope to be. Something would have to give. I do not foresee the Catholic Church admitting they were wrong with Vatican I and I don’t anticipate Orthodoxy agreeing to the conditions of Vatican I. That equals no progress in my book.
I also think that many Catholics feel that Orthodoxy doesn’t feel complete without the West. That is a false notion that my experience in reading and studying and knowing Orthodox Christians tells me they don’t buy into. The two lungs thinking, the urging to reunify, I don’t see it. I just can’t believe that Rome would drop their papal claims and that Orthodoxy would accept them. The rest like the filioque and spirituality, liturgy, and other differences are minute in comparison with the elephant in the room----the papacy.
GT
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dzheremi
Guest
Gosh, I sure can relate to this!This has been my experience as well. To be honest, I was extremely optimistic of reunion when I was RC that I made bubbly school girls tame.
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
I think a lot of Catholics look at the reunion of Catholicism and Anglicans with the ordinariates and the pope’s overtures to the SSPX and other traditionalists and they see success there that they believe will take place also with the Orthodox. Problem is the Orthodox are an entirely different entity with a different praxis and spirituality as well as polity that doesn’t jive.
Gosh, I sure can relate to this!
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dzheremi
Guest
I definitely agree with you there, Gurn. I just meant that I can relate to believing that, and coming to disbelieve it.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I see a church that grew together since the Apostles. Who chose to live the NT as dictated by Jesus Christ.
We are saying now there’s no sense in conversation, its beyond repair? Man made errors cannot be corrected, discussed at this point? No hope?
The dialogue with the Angelicans came along far after ecumenism with the EO begain.
The goal of reconciling all who profess Christian faith to bring them into a single, visible organization is an idea as old as the apostles.
Theres nothing constant in life but change. To assume change in the future will happen is for sure. How will the changes occur remains to be seen.
If we think a moment about the most powerfull societys in the world. Theres a long list which doesn’t include the Church of Christ. How the Skull and Bones or Bilderberg etc play a role in the world movement all have a ripple effect. To force an existence into a more difficult way of life no doubt would cause talks which may never otherwise happen? Never mind how Islam populates in future decades.
I don’t see a united church so unreal. I also don’t see it as a Catholic concept but as a NT way of life. Opinions may vary of course among all individuals. Your entitled to your opinion.
I get the impression that as former Catholics you believe this is just a idea Catholics have? I see opposite to that daily here. I also see Catholics who are convinced the church must descend to an earlier period. Hey opinions are opinions. I understand their feelings also. I understand yours clearly.
I believe open dialogue with those who are capible is the only solution. Negative is an atmosphere I don’t spend much time in. So my own optimistic outlook also becomes my opinion?
I see everytime things get a bit hard people run to the church. I don’t see anything but hard times coming. Sorry but I don’t have this great hope for the West after obverving this for 50+ years.
Let me ask you a question, anyone actually. Do you believe its possible for man to survive this population without divine intervention at this point?
I’m on the contrary convinced its impossible. While I view the bigger picture with a critical eye. The Church situation I see as a Cross, and the only option for eternal salvation.
How than do we lose the least amount of Souls?
Is there someone who should speak for all of Christianity beside Benedict XVI today? To me in essense I already see this happening. Maybe you see this different?
GT
We are saying now there’s no sense in conversation, its beyond repair? Man made errors cannot be corrected, discussed at this point? No hope?
The dialogue with the Angelicans came along far after ecumenism with the EO begain.
The goal of reconciling all who profess Christian faith to bring them into a single, visible organization is an idea as old as the apostles.
Theres nothing constant in life but change. To assume change in the future will happen is for sure. How will the changes occur remains to be seen.
If we think a moment about the most powerfull societys in the world. Theres a long list which doesn’t include the Church of Christ. How the Skull and Bones or Bilderberg etc play a role in the world movement all have a ripple effect. To force an existence into a more difficult way of life no doubt would cause talks which may never otherwise happen? Never mind how Islam populates in future decades.
I don’t see a united church so unreal. I also don’t see it as a Catholic concept but as a NT way of life. Opinions may vary of course among all individuals. Your entitled to your opinion.
I get the impression that as former Catholics you believe this is just a idea Catholics have? I see opposite to that daily here. I also see Catholics who are convinced the church must descend to an earlier period. Hey opinions are opinions. I understand their feelings also. I understand yours clearly.
I believe open dialogue with those who are capible is the only solution. Negative is an atmosphere I don’t spend much time in. So my own optimistic outlook also becomes my opinion?
I see everytime things get a bit hard people run to the church. I don’t see anything but hard times coming. Sorry but I don’t have this great hope for the West after obverving this for 50+ years.
Let me ask you a question, anyone actually. Do you believe its possible for man to survive this population without divine intervention at this point?
I’m on the contrary convinced its impossible. While I view the bigger picture with a critical eye. The Church situation I see as a Cross, and the only option for eternal salvation.
How than do we lose the least amount of Souls?
Is there someone who should speak for all of Christianity beside Benedict XVI today? To me in essense I already see this happening. Maybe you see this different?
GT
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Bluegoat
Guest
I wonder why that is so common? The facts are the same no matter what, so why are Catholics so optimistic about it? It isn’t any skin off their nose if it doesn’t happen.
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