Question about truth of Mormonism

[Allweather]

Did you even read Southerton’s response to Mormon criticism of DNA evidence linked above?

I am not seeing that link, so perhaps I didn’t read it. Don’t get me wrong: I am not defending Mormonism, and I don’t believe its claims with regard to the descendency of the American Indians. All I’m saying is that the film that was linked from PaulDupre’s earlier post is an obvious marketing product, and a Protestant one, at that. It is unfortunate that so many orthodox responses, both Protestant and Catholic, to Mormonism, are tainted by exaggeration. The various Protestant sects are locked in competition for converts. The LDS church, like the evangelicals, must at all times be in growth mode. If they aren’t growing, they’re dying, there’s nothing in between. This apparently forces them to adopt the exaggerations associated with advertising.

 

[christianley]

I am not seeing that link, so perhaps I didn’t read it. Don’t get me wrong: I am not defending Mormonism, and I don’t believe its claims with regard to the descendency of the American Indians. All I’m saying is that the film that was linked from PaulDupre’s earlier post is an obvious marketing product, and a Protestant one, at that. It is unfortunate that so many orthodox responses, both Protestant and Catholic, to Mormonism, are tainted by exaggeration. The various Protestant sects are locked in competition for converts. The LDS church, like the evangelicals, must at all times be in growth mode. If they aren’t growing, they’re dying, there’s nothing in between. This apparently forces them to adopt the exaggerations associated with advertising.

Here’s the link again:

irr.org/MIT/southerton-response.html

 

[Karin]

I am not seeing that link, so perhaps I didn’t read it. Don’t get me wrong: I am not defending Mormonism, and I don’t believe its claims with regard to the descendency of the American Indians. All I’m saying is that the film that was linked from PaulDupre’s earlier post is an obvious marketing product, and a Protestant one, at that. It is unfortunate that so many orthodox responses, both Protestant and Catholic, to Mormonism, are tainted by exaggeration. The various Protestant sects are locked in competition for converts. The LDS church, like the evangelicals, must at all times be in growth mode. If they aren’t growing, they’re dying, there’s nothing in between. This apparently forces them to adopt the exaggerations associated with advertising.

here is the link…
irr.org/MIT/southerton-response.html

 

[Allweather]

Here’s the link again:

irr.org/MIT/southerton-response.html

Thanks. My personal belief is that there is no basis for Mormonism, so I’m certainly not going to argue with this DNA stuff, not only because I’m not competent in that field, but because I “believe” it all to be true. Still, it is too bad that the film is so evangelical. There’s some apparent irony. During my fundamentalist days, I often read and heard fundamentalist preachers condemn science, especially atheistic, evolution type science. Some apologists have spent careers picking apart scientific theory relating to creationism, evolution, etc. It just seems odd to me that now we have evangelicals embracing scientific research, even research as opinionated as this DNA stuff is.

 

[christianley]

Thanks. My personal belief is that there is no basis for Mormonism, so I’m certainly not going to argue with this DNA stuff, not only because I’m not competent in that field, but because I “believe” it all to be true. Still, it is too bad that the film is so evangelical. There’s some apparent irony. During my fundamentalist days, I often read and heard fundamentalist preachers condemn science, especially atheistic, evolution type science. Some apologists have spent careers picking apart scientific theory relating to creationism, evolution, etc. It just seems odd to me that now we have evangelicals embracing scientific research, even research as opinionated as this DNA stuff is.

I agree with you. Southerton bases some of his conclusions on DNA going back tens of thousands of years which obviously isn’t in accord with the fundamentalist mindset of those who are providing the film. I even wrote them an e-mail about that and they admitted they didn’t believe life went back further than six thousand years to begin with. That kind of makes Southerton’s arguments mute. Mormons can discount much of the DNA evidence simply based on the fact they believe men have only been around since 6000 B.C. so they really don’t have much faith in the DNA science anyway.

 

[mdalynch]

Wheather you agree with me or not is to no account. One controlls what they take in and can not control what goes out! We can choose to remember Truth we can not choose to forget lies! It is my opinion but it is far to easy (in my opinion) to mistake the two through the test of time.
So be carefull what falsehoods you allow in, they may very well corrupt the truth!

 

[Andrew_in_Idaho]

The problem with quoting problems in the book of Mormon is that any mistake found in it is usually removed because of “Divine Revelation”.

At last count there were over 2000 changed to the BofM that dont count spelling and punctuation.

There are also large similarities between Islam and Mormon in how they came to exist.

Islam states that it is the correct version of the religion given by God to Abraham, and that during the existence of Israel it was perverted into Judaism. Mohammad was chosen to “reveal” the correct religon.

Mormonism takes a similar stance. That IT is the correct version of the Christian faith put on earth by Christ and his Apostles but that the Apostles died before leaving successors and thus with Constantine and the pagan Roman empire becomming Christian we get what we call the RCC.

Joseph Smith was given a revolation by the Angle Moroni and thus found the True religion of Christ.

 

[AnneBOK]

First Mormons do not believe the Bible was translated correctly
They think the Church is apostate quoting bible verses will get you no where

You are wrong when you say that they believe that the Bible was not translated correctly. The believe in the Bible “as far as it is translated correctly”. A very small fraction - very small - of the Bible has been taught to be incorrectly translated. To see specifically which parts, refer to the JST (Joseph Smith Translation). They also teach that there is some truth to be found in all churches - Catholic included.

Anne

 

[AnneBOK]

You are wrong when you say that they believe that the Bible was not translated correctly. The believe in the Bible “as far as it is translated correctly”. A very small fraction - very small - of the Bible has been taught to be incorrectly translated. To see specifically which parts, refer to the JST (Joseph Smith Translation). They also teach that there is some truth to be found in all churches - Catholic included.

Anne

And, if you do not have your LDS Scriptures handy you may follow links from the following site to view the JST yourself:
lds.org

 

[JonathanKinsman]

Anne O Anne;

Moslems believe the same thing: the Tanakh and the Bible are correct as far as they are correct. You are spouting a tautology. On another thread you were claiming to Catholic. Hmmmm.

Mormonism is America’s answer to Islam.

The parallels are impressive and startling. Each Mormon or Moslem believes that their religion is fixing what went wrong with those darn Hebrews and Christians. Each is founded on myth that cannot be backed up with physical proof: golden plates went back to Heaven and the rocks, palm fronds and what not went back to Paradise. Both claim Jesus to be a prophet or minor god (of this planet!). Both stole from prior sources: the Syro-Coptic lectionary for the Koran and the KJV and that reverend’s Hebrews book. Both were founded upon force and deceit, both put ‘others’ in subordinate roles (black people and women).

There should be no discussion of Mormonism as a Christian sect: the Vatican issued a document (see the vatican website) delineating the holding that Mormons do not receive valid Christian baptism.

Look to how things begin and what message is taught. If exclusion is the rule, then (to quote Jim Morrison) cancel my subscription to the Resurrection (said tongue planted firmly in cheek!)

 

[PaulDupre]

You are wrong when you say that they believe that the Bible was not translated correctly. The believe in the Bible “as far as it is translated correctly”. A very small fraction - very small - of the Bible has been taught to be incorrectly translated. To see specifically which parts, refer to the JST (Joseph Smith Translation). They also teach that there is some truth to be found in all churches - Catholic included.

Anne

The Mormon Church has always maintained that the Bible is hopelessly corrupt and untrustworthy:

1 Nephi 13:
24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

The above passage claims that the bible we have now is not the same bible written by the prophets and apostles. Many of the “plain and precious parts” were taken away by the “great and abominable Church”. Why? “that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.” (1 Ne:13:27)

Verse 29 states that those who believe the bible with the plain and precious parts deliberately removed by the great and abominable church stumble so that Satan has great power over them.

Continued…

 

[PaulDupre]

Bible corruption continued…

What do the modern LDS prophets and apostles say?

President Ezra Taft Benson wrote of

“the Bible, which passed through generations of copyists, translators and corrupt religionists who tampered with the text”
(Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg. 53).

Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., popular LDS author and son of the tenth president of the church, said

“The early ‘Apostate Fathers’ did not think it was wrong to tamper with inspired scripture. If any scripture seemed to endanger their viewpoint, it was altered, transplanted or completely removed from the Biblical text” (Religious Truths Defined, p.175).

Apostle Mark E. Peterson casts doubt on the reliability of the Bible and states forcefully that the corruption was intentional:

“Many insertions were made, some of them ‘slanted’ for selfish purposes, while at times deliberate falsifications and fabrications were perpetrated”
(As Translated Correctly, p.4).

“It is evident then that many of the ‘plain and precious’ things were omitted from the Bible by failure to choose all of the authentic books for inclusion, and by deliberate changes, deletions and forgeries …”
(As Translated Correctly, p.14).

The encyclopedia of Mormonism:

“Thus, the elements of mistranslation, incompleteness, and other errors weaken the Bible”
(Encyclopedia of Mormonism , Vol. 1, Bible).

Again we can see from this small sample of quotes how the conviction that the bible is corrupt and untrustworthy starts with The Book of Mormon (“the most correct book on earth” and “the keystone of our religion”) and continues to pervade Mormon thinking and writing throughout their history.

Anne, you have been hoodwinked about what the Mormons really teach and think. You, as an outsider and potential convert, see only the nicey-nice public face of Mormonism. They will tell you whatever they think you want to hear to suck into their cult. Don’t believe them.
Grace to you all,
Paul (a former Mormon)

 

[AnneBOK]

Bible corruption continued…

What do the modern LDS prophets and apostles say?

President Ezra Taft Benson wrote of

Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., popular LDS author and son of the tenth president of the church, said

Apostle Mark E. Peterson casts doubt on the reliability of the Bible and states forcefully that the corruption was intentional:

The encyclopedia of Mormonism:

Again we can see from this small sample of quotes how the conviction that the bible is corrupt and untrustworthy starts with The Book of Mormon (“the most correct book on earth” and “the keystone of our religion”) and continues to pervade Mormon thinking and writing throughout their history.

Anne, you have been hoodwinked about what the Mormons really teach and think. You, as an outsider and potential convert, see only the nicey-nice public face of Mormonism. They will tell you whatever they think you want to hear to suck into their cult. Don’t believe them.
Grace to you all,
Paul (a former Mormon)

Paul - I have been hoodwinked about Mormons about as much as you have been hoodwinked about Catholics.

Anne

 

[PaulDupre]

Paul - I have been hoodwinked about Mormons about as much as you have been hoodwinked about Catholics.

Anne

Really, Anne? Tell me then, what does the Catholic Church teach that they have kept from me? I would really like to know.

Paul

 

[Victorious]

The Mormons have been searching for evidence of the BofM for more than 150 years and have come up completely dry.

So how is the lack of evidence explained? This must be a question they have to field a lot, and I would think they’d have an official line on it.

 

[zerinus]

Paul - I have been hoodwinked about Mormons about as much as you have been hoodwinked about Catholics.

Anne

We believe that the Bible has a lot missing from it; but that does not mean that what we have left in it is not reliable scripture. If that were the case, we would not use it or quote from it in our teachings and preachings, nor canonize it in our standard works. We assume everything that is in the Bible to be correct, unless we have good reason to believe otherwise–i.e. if there is something in modern scripture that tells us that that is the case–and there are not many of those. We accept the Bible as scripture.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

The Mormon church has lots of its people are entangled financially with the success of the church. Even if some do disbelieve the tales of Mormonism, few will leave the church, because it is also an engine of financial empire, and their livelihoods are at stake.

LOL. I wish that were the case! All my life I have given money to the Church, and have never received a penny from it.

Would you like to give us some specific examples of what you have in mind?

zerinus

 

[Victorious]

We believe that the Bible has a lot missing from it; but that does not mean that what we have left in it is not reliable scripture. If that were the case, we would not use it or quote from it in our teachings and preachings, nor canonize it in our standard works. We assume everything that is in the Bible to be correct, unless we have good reason to believe otherwise–i.e. if there is something in modern scripture that tells us that that is the case–and there are not many of those. We accept the Bible as scripture.

If there are errors omissions in the Bible, then how can you trust any of it? How can an erroneous document qualify as Scripture? And by what authority is it determined that there are errors and omissions, and what they are?

Galations 1:8:

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you agospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.

 

[Allweather]

LOL. I wish that were the case! All my life I have given money to the Church, and have never received a penny from it.

Would you like to give us some specific examples of what you have in mind?

zerinus

I don’t know why that quote was attributed to me, Allweather. I certainly didn’t write it.

However, it brings up something I’ve been meaning to ask about. Last month I spent 3 weeks in the Dallas/Fort Worth area on business. I stayed in a Marriot facility (Residence Inn) in Arlington. I noticed that in addition to the usual Gideon Bible in the bedside table, there was a BoM on top of it. The BoM, BTW, looked pristine, as in unused, which, to me, is a good thing. Now, I’ve heard from various undocumented sources that Marriott is a Mormon operation. Does anyone know if this is true? If so, how much of it is Mormon-owned? How did this ownership come to be?

Others have recently mentioned the Mormon church as being some sort of financial empire. Does anyone know the full extent of this empire?

 

[PaulDupre]

We believe that the Bible has a lot missing from it; but that does not mean that what we have left in it is not reliable scripture.

zerinus

Z,
I know it comforts you to believe that, but examine the quotes above once more. Your leaders point out that the bible suffers not only from

deletions…and failure to choose all of the authentic books for inclusion.

but also contains

insertions, deliberate falsifications and fabrications, deliberate changes, and forgeries…

So you may believe that you can trust what’s in the current bible, but your church does not. Sorry about that.

God bless,
Paul