Question about truth of Mormonism

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zerinus said:
LOL. I wish that were the case! All my life I have given money to the Church, and have never received a penny from it.

Would you like to give us some specific examples of what you have in mind?

zerinus
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Z,
I don’t think he was saying that people get money directly from the church, but that many, if not most, Mormons get their jobs from other Mormons, or work in Mormon-owned businesses, or sell their insurance policies to other Mormons, or get all their real-estate business from other Mormons, etc., etc. You know as well as I do that Mormons prefer to do business exclusively with other Mormons when possible, and Mormon business owners hire Mormons whenever possible.

I have never known a Mormon family who didn’t have one or more members dependent upon their church membership for livelihood.

Should a Mormon leave the church, all his LDS clients and business connections would dry up instantly, or he may lose his job or forfeit promotions. In fact, his “apostacy” may endanger the financial health of his entire extended family.

That is a lot of pressure to submit to a believe system you do not really embrace.

Paul
 
PaulDupre said:
Z,
I don’t think he was saying that people get money directly from the church, but that many, if not most, Mormons get their jobs from other Mormons, or work in Mormon-owned businesses, or sell their insurance policies to other Mormons, or get all their real-estate business from other Mormons, etc., etc. You know as well as I do that Mormons prefer to do business exclusively with other Mormons when possible, and Mormon business owners hire Mormons whenever possible.

I have never known a Mormon family who didn’t have one or more members dependent upon their church membership for livelihood.

Should a Mormon leave the church, all his LDS clients and business connections would dry up instantly, or he may lose his job or forfeit promotions. In fact, his “apostacy” may endanger the financial health of his entire extended family.

That is a lot of pressure to submit to a believe system you do not really embrace.

Paul
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That is the craziest thing I ever heard. There would have to be an awful lot of Mormons in the world for every Mormon to get his job from another Mormon. Mormons are scattered all over the world, and in every state in the US. You go and check out their population density in each location, and tell me what is the likelihood of every Mormon getting his job or business from another Mormon.

zerinus
 
Allweather said:
I don’t know why that quote was attributed to me, Allweather. I certainly didn’t write it.

However, it brings up something I’ve been meaning to ask about. Last month I spent 3 weeks in the Dallas/Fort Worth area on business. I stayed in a Marriot facility (Residence Inn) in Arlington. I noticed that in addition to the usual Gideon Bible in the bedside table, there was a BoM on top of it. The BoM, BTW, looked pristine, as in unused, which, to me, is a good thing. Now, I’ve heard from various undocumented sources that Marriott is a Mormon operation. Does anyone know if this is true? If so, how much of it is Mormon-owned? How did this ownership come to be?

Others have recently mentioned the Mormon church as being some sort of financial empire. Does anyone know the full extent of this empire?
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Bill Marriott is a Mormon I would assume that his family also is…
marriott.com/corporateinfo/culture/heritageJWillardMarriott.mi
 
You’re changing words again, Z. I didn’t say every - I said many if not most. If you need to alter the original text to make your point, your argument loses credibility.

Paul
 
Allweather said:
Last month I spent 3 weeks in the Dallas/Fort Worth area on business. I stayed in a Marriot facility (Residence Inn) in Arlington. I noticed that in addition to the usual Gideon Bible in the bedside table, there was a BoM on top of it. The BoM, BTW, looked pristine, as in unused, which, to me, is a good thing.
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What makes you so sure? Perhaps it was pristine because the previous one had been taken by the previous guest, and they had put out a brand new one just for you! What did the Bible look like? Was it used much?
Now, I’ve heard from various undocumented sources that Marriott is a Mormon operation.
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Marriot is “a Mormon”. He is not a “Mormon operation”. He is a smart entrepreneur who made his money in the hotel industry, and owns a chain of hotels around the world; and he also just happens to be Mormon. His business belongs to himself, not to the Church.
Does anyone know if this is true? If so, how much of it is Mormon-owned? How did this ownership come to be?
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No it is not true; and none of it is “Mormon owned,” if by that you mean that it is owned by the Church.
Others have recently mentioned the Mormon church as being some sort of financial empire. Does anyone know the full extent of this empire?
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That is not true. You have been duped. What kind of business do you have? You can’t be a very smart businessman; otherwise you wouldn’t be duped so easily. You should learn to be smart like Marriot, who is both a Mormon, and also very very rich! 😛

zerinus
 
PaulDupre said:
Z,
I know it comforts you to believe that, but examine the quotes above once more. Your leaders point out that the bible suffers not only from

but also contains

So you may believe that you can trust what’s in the current bible, but your church does not. Sorry about that.

God bless,
Paul
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The LDS position on the Bible is unambiguous and clear: “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God” (Article 8, The Articles of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
The LDS position on the Bible is unambiguous and clear: “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God” (Article 8, The Articles of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).

zerinus
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I’m sorry, I don’t understand exactly “as far as it is translated correctly”. Does that mean that if there is a passage the Church doesn’t agree with that they decide “that is a mistranslation”? Or, does that mean that the LDS Church says that there are only certain translations (ie. KJV or RSV) that are valid?
 
Just a few observations:

Marriott is not owned or operated by the LDS church. It IS owned by A Mormon. I find it a bit hypocritical that Mariott makes a large percentage of its money from alcoholic beverage sales and pornographic movies for its guests. That seems to go against what the LDS church teaches but that is Marriotts problem and should not be attributed to the LDS church.

As to financial incentives for people to stay Mormon, I think it somewhat complex. In some areas such as Utah and parts of Arizona, Montana, Idaho, etc. it IS true that one’s livelihood can be VERY much influenced by one’s standing in the Mormon church. I think that more cultural/geographic than religious in nature. In EVERY area though the LDS church operates a pretty impressive welfare program. Some folks are dependent on it (despite the LDS church teaching that it should be temporary “workfare” some folks are either very needy or take advantage of it) and thus feel they can’t leave. Some who have known folks that benefited from church welfare feel somewhat afraid of losing that “security blanket” even if they never received a dime from it. i think this is exacerbated by the consistent LDS teaching that God blesses the righteous materially and punishes the wicked the same way. This is shown in the cyclical examples of the nephites in the BoM. My family really feels this way about us and insists that when times are good it’s Satan tempting me and I’m missing out on even better prosperity. When I have financial struggles they insist it is God punishing me for my apostasy. They feel so strongly about this that are careful never to render any assistance for fear of interfering with God’s efforts to “correct” me. They also make sure that we know that they do this out of love.:rolleyes:

I haven’t had any outright “persecution” other than that since we left but we moved away this year and that reduced the opportunity. We did have a lot of friends just quit communicating with us. My family doesn’t communicate much and when they do they feel the need to call us to repentance but it’s at least civil.

I think Mormons just use the Bible to develop an ability to interface with Christians with some semblance of normality.They only use the parts that support their position. They don’t push their members to really know it so much and they DO constantly harp on reading the BoM. They pretty much believe that anything in the Bible that can be considered contradictory to their beliefs is wrong. SO I think they give lip service to the Bible, Tout the BoM as the “fullness” of the Gospel, yet act in accordance with the D&C which is the REAL source of Mormon doctrine and practice.
 
Prayer_Warrior said:
I’m sorry, I don’t understand exactly “as far as it is translated correctly”. Does that mean that if there is a passage the Church doesn’t agree with that they decide “that is a mistranslation”? Or, does that mean that the LDS Church says that there are only certain translations (ie. KJV or RSV) that are valid?
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It means that we accept all of the Bible to be correct as it stands, unless there is a good reason for us to believe otherwise–i.e. unless there is something in modern LDS scripture or revelation that tells us otherwise. We have adopted the KJV as being, in our judgenment, the best available translation of the Bible in English.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
It means that we accept all of the Bible to be correct as it stands, unless there is a good reason for us to believe otherwise–i.e. unless there is something in modern LDS scripture or revelation that tells us otherwise. We have adopted the KJV as being, in our judgenment, the best available translation of the Bible in English.

zerinus
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so how much of the actual Bible is not contradicted by LDS scripture or revelation?
 
Karin said:
so how much of the actual Bible is not contradicted by LDS scripture or revelation?
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Actually, not a lot. As far as fundamental theological priciples are concerned, we velieve there arn’t any! 🙂

zerinus
 
What about Hebrews 3:18? Doesn’t that kinda fly in the face of the LDS teaching that Christ progressed to godhood and was once a mere intelligence like the rest of us (cf. D&C 93:21)?
 
Megatron said:
What about Hebrews 3:18? Doesn’t that kinda fly in the face of the LDS teaching that Christ progressed to godhood and was once a mere intelligence like the rest of us (cf. D&C 93:21)?
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This is Hebrews 3:18: "And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?" I don’t see any contradiction between that and LDS doctrine.

zerinus
 
Megatron said:
Thanks, Paul. 👍

One day I’ll learn how to type! Ugh!
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Yes, that is a bit better! But sorry to disappoint, there is no contradiction between LDS doctrine and the Bible. The D&C teaches this:

D&C 93:21 “And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;”

And the Bible teaches this:

Colossians 1:15: “Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:”

These doctrines agree precisely. I see no contradiction—unless you are going to tell me that the Bible contradicts itself! But as far as I am concerned, there is no contradiction.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
What makes you so sure? Perhaps it was pristine because the previous one had been taken by the previous guest, and they had put out a brand new one just for you! What did the Bible look like? Was it used much?

Marriot is “a Mormon”. He is not a “Mormon operation”. He is a smart entrepreneur who made his money in the hotel industry, and owns a chain of hotels around the world; and he also just happens to be Mormon. His business belongs to himself, not to the Church.

No it is not true; and none of it is “Mormon owned,” if by that you mean that it is owned by the Church.

That is not true. You have been duped. What kind of business do you have? You can’t be a very smart businessman; otherwise you wouldn’t be duped so easily. You should learn to be smart like Marriot, who is both a Mormon, and also very very rich! 😛

zerinus
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The Bible, a typical cheap, old typeface KJV Gideon, looked old, and was a bit threadbare, had a stain on the cover. Listen, I’m a big friend of books. I know what a new book looks like, and I know what one looks like that has been even thumbed thru once or twice. This BoM was virgin. And, yes, it is certainly possible that it was a replacement for one that was taken by the previous occupant. It is also possible, more likely, in fact, that it has been sitting in that drawer for years.

Thanks for the info about the Marriott operation. I’ve been staying in Marriott facilities for years. My company has a contract with Marriott to operate a large facility near Oklahoma City where we are housed when there for training. They do good work. As I mentioned, I’ve heard these rumors for years that Marriott is owned “by the Mormon church” and had found myself believing that, and repeating it from time to time in conversation. The misquote of me above reminded me of this, and I thought now would be a good time to get some straight poop.

As for me being “not very smart,” well, I’ll have to agree with you there, pardner. I make no claims for being a Big Brain. I merely asked the question, and meant no meanness by it. Get some rest, Z. You’re touchy.
 
majick275 said:
Marriott is not owned or operated by the LDS church. It IS owned by A Mormon. I find it a bit hypocritical that Mariott makes a large percentage of its money from alcoholic beverage sales and pornographic movies for its guests. That seems to go against what the LDS church teaches but that is Marriotts problem and should not be attributed to the LDS church.
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You are correct. My suite had two TVs in it, and both of them had signs attached that said that adult programming is available on a PPV basis. I commented on this to my Mormon girlfriend in telephone conversation. I told her that I thought it is pretty strange that Marriott, being, as I thought at that time, a “Mormon operation,” would have this type of programming available. After a few days there I noticed that there weren’t any Christian TV stations available to the rooms. I think this odd, too. But, then, according to Z, I have a “conspiracy theory” problem.

So, to sum up: Marriott. Mormon. Adult PPV in the room. BoM in the bedside drawer. No Christian programming on the TV. Conspiracy? Accident? You be the judge.
 
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