Question for Catholics: Will you really go to hell for deliberatly missing mass?

[Lisa4Catholics]

Paris Blues:

Oh, so that explains why regular church service was kinda boring at the church I used to go to. Same ol’ stuff. No offense or anything. Maybe that’s why I find the Masses I attend soooooo more “real” and such. I have this deep, supernatural relationship with Christ Himself and I just didn’t seem to fit in at the other church I attended at a Protestant church…not that they are pathetic or anything. I was looking for something more…more “authentic” is the word perhaps? I don’t know! I can’t find the right word for what I feel inside!

Nicole

It is something that mere words can’t describe,it is more than an intellectual argument,that is why until Michael experiences the graces in the Mass,he can’t understand.God Bless

 

[Robert_in_SD]

ppcpilot:

I think the underlying thing here, Michael, is you are equating the Mass as equal to a Sunday church service. I can see where a Protestant would think that skipping their church service is no big deal…(some singing, some scripture, some sermon…) But Mass is so very super important to true Catholics; it’s something we avoid skipping at all costs! Even if we don’t feel 100%, or if the weather is bad, etc…these are valid reasons for one to miss their Sunday obligation…but most true Catholics will go anyway because it means so much. It’s not just a praise and worship service…it’s a praise and worship service with one important element…the Eucharist! its a holy time where we join up with the heavens in the eternal feast of the Lamb!

To answer your question, Catholics believe that if you deliberately miss mass with attitude… (F-you, I don’t want to go) and don’t repent for your turning away from God, you will be in a state of mortal sin, not in a state of grace. To get to heaven, we believe one must die in a state of grace. As whether or not you go to hell, that’s for our eternal Judge to decide.

This is the kind of ‘works’ we Catholics believe merit us the Holy Kingdom. It’s not enough just to believe; you have got to obey and put into practice God’s word. I don’t believe for one minute that God would send his Son here to suffer like He did so we can just believe in him and party hardy with our lives on Earth, assured of our trip to heaven. I don’t buy it. God is Just. We must keep our covenant bond with Him. If you were/are a father, would you let your daugher or son tell you they are sorry, and then proceed to let them party and drink/drug/fornicate their life away? Is that one time event of telling you that they are sorry, and they accept your love an excuse to act that way and not worry about concequences? Sounds like a bunch of hooey to me.

Best wishes and prayers for you and your father!

Amen and well said ppcpilot! :clapping:

 

[aridite]

Dan-Man916:

My thinking was backwards because i looked at my faith from a negative perspective. Miss mass, commit mortal sin, can send you to hell.

that is not a loving faith within the Trinity. That is a simplistic faith.
Going to mass is important! And it is serious business to miss Mass because, like another poster said, we say no to God. We choose to be alone and separate from God.

What does it mean to love someone?
What does it mean to be in a relationship in which you are excited to be with a person, you want to give to them because your love for them is deep and passionate.
You want to be with them because it makes your heart flutter and makes you giddy inside. It makes you smile to be with them, and makes you glad to be alive because you feel so incedibly complete.

that’s what our faith and that faith relationship is all about. If we choose to turn our backs and miss mass, we are saying no to the one we love. We have turned our back on them.
Only God can really judge whether or not the sin is a mortal sin.

Missing mass is called serious sin, and is mortal if knowledge and full consent of the will are also present.

But what i’m trying to get at here, is that i don’t think it is helpful to look at faith in such a negative way.
Our faith is about realtionship. It is about love. It really is about passion.

We are receiving the Lord, Body , Blood, Soul, and Divinity. We are mysteriously standing at the foot at Calvary as the priest offers the Sacrifice. We are mysteriously in Heaven at the Lamb’s Supper at mass.
It is a pretty incredible thing that we are able to be a part of.

I know it’s sometimes hard to realize that because mass can be humdrum at times. But it is humdrum because we let it get that way.

Objectively, it is the most incredible thing we can ever experience!

This is exactly right. Thank you, Dan. What we’re talking about is not “just” missing Mass. It is thumbing one’s nose at the Church and her authority make binding rules. So, like all sin, it is an affront to God. It’s not the same as apostasy, but it is of the same order. It’s not adultery, but it is serious. And sometimes seeming small things can mean a lot. I think the marriage analogy is apt. Under certain circumstances, and with the right (wrong?) intentions, not calling my wife (when I told her I would, when I know she is worried about me, when something important depends on my call) would be a serious sin, which if left un-repented would send me to hell. Better, I would send myself to hell if I cared so little about my relationship with my wife. So, by cavalierly neglecting Mass (and my relationship to Christ and his Church) I would send myself to hell. If it is cavalierly done, its not “just” missing Mass.

 

[michaelp]

Even if we don’t feel 100%, or if the weather is bad, etc…these are valid reasons for one to miss their Sunday obligation…but most true Catholics will go anyway because it means so much.

But no one hardly ever feels 100%. I understand the importance of the event, but it just seems rather trivial to say that you could go to Mass your entire life and miss one at the end of your life for some invalid reason and go to hell.

I know that you don’t need to find this in the Bible since you rely on Traditions as equal authority, but don’t you think that this would be said in Scripture?

To answer your question, Catholics believe that if you deliberately miss mass with attitude… (F-you, I don’t want to go) and don’t repent for your turning away from God, you will be in a state of mortal sin, not in a state of grace. To get to heaven, we believe one must die in a state of grace. As whether or not you go to hell, that’s for our eternal Judge to decide.

But isn’t this the sin of apostacy you are talking about, and not missing mass that is the terrible sin here. Missing mass is just the way that this apostacy is expressed. This would be understandable.

I don’t believe for one minute that God would send his Son here to suffer like He did so we can just believe in him and party hardy with our lives on Earth, assured of our trip to heaven.

We are not talking about “party hardy” here. We are talking about missing one mass without a valid reason even though the person may have been devoted to God his or her entire life. Doesn’t this seem odd. It does not sound like the God of grace and mercy that the Scriptures tell us about.

If you were/are a father, would you let your daugher or son tell you they are sorry, and then proceed to let them party and drink/drug/fornicate their life away?

It is just missing one mass. I am a father and my kids deliberately make mistakes and sin. I would not send them to Hell if they did one thing wrong like forgetting to give me a good night kiss even though they do so every night. Would you?

I know that God is both righteous and love and that you cannot have one without the other, but to be sent to hell for missing mass is hard to imagine. Don’t you think?

Best wishes and prayers for you and your father!

Thanks. I appreciate this very much.

 

[michaelp]

I thought that evangelical fundamentalist christians believed that all sin falls short of God’s law, thus any sin would condemn a person to Hell but for the saving grace of God through Jesus Christ? If that is so, then for any unsaved person the tiniest of sins results in eternal punishment, correct?

No. All sins are not equal. All sins evidence an equally depraved nature. Our rejection of God is what ultimately sends us to hell. Sins are just a natural outcome of our depraved nature.

And if that is the case, why do you have a hard time equating missing mass with adultery?

I just do. Would you feel worse if you missed mass or committed adultry? Which has the worst consequeces? Would you rather have a society of people who missed mass once or one that was filled with those who committed adultry once? Seriously.

Your real issue appears to be one of the difference between Catholic and Fundamentalist understandings of “salvation.” Your “question” seems to be a disguised attack on the Catholic understanding of salvation.

For you information, Fundementalism is a pejoritive term to Protestants these days. It has become equated with legalism (don’t dance, smoke, or go to movie theaters). I am not a fundementalist although I do hold to the fundementals of the faith.

To sum it up, Catholics believe that salvation can be lost, not because of any insufficiency in Jesus’ attoning sacrifice of course, but from our own human rejection of that precious God-given gift. By turning away from God, we place ourselves in mortal peril. Only by turning back to God do we again become justified by His grace (and not by any merit or work of our own).

So apstacy is the sin, not missing mass?

Your understanding - if you are a fundamentalist evangelical christian - is that you are fully justified by faith in Christ Jesus alone, and even if you sin thereafter you will still enter Heaven because you have been forever “saved” by your personal act of faith.

That is where I am at. But faith will always produce love and good works or it is not faith. We do good works because we are justified, not so that we can be justified. “We love, because he first loved us.”
Does that mean I can stand up at an altar call in your church on Sunday, “accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior” then go on a shooting spree killing every member of your church, but ultimately end up in Heaven assuming I was sincere in my acceptance of Jesus Christ as my personal savior? Seems to me that I’d be doing all of us a favor because we’d ALL end up in Heaven if your understanding is correct, right?

(FYI - I don’t mean to offend you any more than I’m sure you meant to offend me and other Catholics by your confessional scenario above, but I’m trying to make the same sort of emotional impact. My apologies if I offend any reader’s sensibilities.)

IMHO the Catholic understanding of salvation makes a lot more sense.

One last comment, it is not the act of missing mass itself that is mortal sin, because there are valid reasons for missing mass, such as health reasons. I agree with you that if missing mass for any reason were a mortal sin, that would be “legalistic.” But the mortal sin arises from the conscious decision to turn away from God. And with the mass, this is a literal as well as a figurative decision to turn away from God.

Peace,

 

[aridite]

michaelp:

I know that you don’t need to find this in the Bible since you rely on Traditions as equal authority, but don’t you think that this would be said in Scripture?

Ezekiel 3:17-21
Thus the word of the LORD came to me: Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman for the house of Israel. When you hear a word from my mouth, you shall warn them for me.
18 If I say to the wicked man, You shall surely die; and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his wicked conduct so that he may live: that wicked man shall die for his sin, but I will hold you responsible for his death. 19 If, on the other hand, you have warned the wicked man, yet he has not turned away from his evil nor from his wicked conduct, then he shall die for his sin, but you shall save your life. 20 If a virtuous man turns away from virtue and does wrong when I place a stumbling block before him, he shall die. He shall die for his sin, and his virtuous deeds shall not be remembered; but I will hold you responsible for his death if you did not warn him. 21 When, on the other hand, you have warned a virtuous man not to sin, and he has in fact not sinned, he shall surely live because of the warning, and you shall save your own life.

Michael, I think what we are talking about is akin (though not quite as explicit) as apostasy. Missing Mass is, objectively, an affront to the faith. Subjectively, it man not be understood as such. This is why moral determinations are so difficult and have to be made with prudence and considering particular circumstances.

 

[ppcpilot]

Michael, sorry…I got on a tangent in that last paragraph or two…

I don’t agree with your apostacy statement…missing mass without a valid reason is saying ‘Screw you. I’ll love you when I damn well feel like it’. It’s not leaving your religion or faith. You would still be a Catholic, just a Catholic in a state of mortal sin. It’s not apostacy. Apostacy seems like it would be grounds for excomm, I would guess, and then all Catholics would be excomm, as I’m sure all of us have sinned mortally. Good thing we have forgiveness through reconcilliation!

But again, this knowing that we can loose salvation by our choices and decisions is what keeps us true with God. As the recent tragedies in Indonesia prove, we can be gone at any second. As Catholics, we believe one must be in a state of grace to get to heaven. If we sin mortally, we are not in a state of grace. What God does with us then is up to God. We can not understand his mercy. I don’t think the church damns anyone to hell. But it does teach us that God is all merciful, but he is just.

Remember also, that mortal sin is not a ‘do this, and you go to hell kind of thing!’ You have to truly in your heart willfully regect God and his law with full knowledge of the concequences. Catholics believe if they miss a Mass without the tiniest valid reason, then die without repentance, they will die in a state of mortal sin. Go to hell? Perhaps, but no one can say for sure.

 

[kliner]

michaelp:

If this is true, how can this be grace (“a gift” or “unmerited favor”)? How is this not legalism?

please be sure you understand the importance (i recommend Dr. Scott Hahn’s “The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth”) of the Holy Mass before writing it off as “legalism.” it actually is a law, in the Ten Commandments: “Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy.” i don’t have my Catechism on me, but i think a quick search of the index could help you with this one. if you don’t have a Catechism (very helpful if you’re considering entering the Church), i would recommend visiting here (index here). you should be able to search the contents of the Vatican web site with google. example: ‘mortal sin site:vatican.va’ (without 's).

also please realize the distinction between deliberately missing without an acceptable (to God, as stated by Rara Avis as He knows and He cannot be fooled) reason and missing with an acceptable reason.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Dear MichaelP;

With all due respect, your hypothetical stretches the concepts of sin, justification and salvation to the absurd.

You keep saying that you can’t believe how a person could miss mass without a valid reason and end up in Hell. Your question misses the point. Missing mass without a reason - alone - is not going to land a person in Hell. It’s a person’s intent that determines whether conduct is a mortal sin, a venial sin, or no sin at all.

With that in mind, please clarify your hypothetical. Why does the person in your scenario choose to skip mass? What is their intent? That would seem to be the critical inquiry.

Peace

 

[Pug]

Paris Blues:

Huh?

The scary part is, I think like a Catholic and a Protestant at the same time, sounds impossible I know, but I’m TRYING to change my thinking to Catholic.

Be what after Easter Vigil? Converting you mean?

I see I have only made a muddle! Sorry. If you convert on Easter Vigil (the most typical day to do so), you will be a Catholic then, and hence required to follow the “precepts” of the Church, and then you would be required to go to mass on Christmas.

Perhpas your question is, what are the precepts? They are a list of 6 or so things that the Church actively asks Catholics to do, and it is considered a sin not to do them. They are found in the CCC starting in paragraph 2041. The first precept lists that you have to go to mass on the Holy Days (that includes Christmas, which is the day you mentioned in your earlier post). So that is why I started talking about “precepts”.

Assuming you are not Catholic now, you are not bound by the precepts of the Church. So you would not be in danger of mortal sin for not going to mass on Christmas (a Holy Day of Obligation).

I know about trying to convert your brain from Protestant thought to Catholic (I was Methodist). I often think in Protestant pardigms to this day. It probably makes me twice as hard to understand, both for Protestants and Catholics

You seemed kind of worried about the Christmas Eve thing. I was hoping to clear that up. But there could be other reasons than the precepts that you worried about it.

 

[Paris_Blues]

ppcpilot:

Catholics believe if they miss a Mass without the tiniest valid reason, then die without repentance, they will die in a state of mortal sin. Go to hell? Perhaps, but no one can say for sure.

Oh my word! Even BEFORE I even learned about the Catholic religion or even thought about converting, that is EXACTLY what I feared the most, though not in the same situation. If I did not repent after I commited something, I would go to Hell! Though even if I did repent, I would still fear hell. Something must be wrong with me?

Nicole

 

[aridite]

michaelp:

If I still have a chance because I am not “officially” part of the Roman catholic church and therefore and invincibly ignorant, it seems best that I stay away from the Church since I would have a better chance in my ignorance than in communion with RCC. There seems to be more grace given by God for non-Catholic than Catholics.

Michael

You may be saved from the danger of deliberately, willfully neglecting your Sunday obligation. That is like saying, it is better not to get married so there is no chance of being unfaithful. This is true, but you miss out on more than you gain. What you miss out on more because of your invincible ignorance is the grace of the sacraments. They actually sanctify you so your faith will be manifested in good works, like going to Mass, among others.

But remember, no one gets to choose to be invincibly ignorant. If your ignorance (or error) is chosen or affected (if you have to try not to be convinced, or don’t try to find the truth in good will and a sincere heart), it is not invincible. It is the result of a choice and so you are culpable for the ignorance (or error) and any consequences which result from it.

 

[michaelp]

Robert in SD:

Dear MichaelP;

With all due respect, your hypothetical stretches the concepts of sin, justification and salvation to the absurd.

You keep saying that you can’t believe how a person could miss mass without a valid reason and end up in Hell. Your question misses the point. Missing mass without a reason - alone - is not going to land a person in Hell. It’s a person’s intent that determines whether conduct is a mortal sin, a venial sin, or no sin at all.

With that in mind, please clarify your hypothetical. Why does the person in your scenario choose to skip mass? What is their intent? That would seem to be the critical inquiry.

Peace

There are many things that cause us to be confused and angry with God. My sister was this was until the end of her life. He brought the trials of Job to her. She did not want anything to do with Him at the end because she was mad.

Many people experience this. I have as well. This does not mean that I don’t love Him still, but I may get angry with him.

My sister loved the Lord for many years. When these things came upon her, she was very confused and angry. She died a terrible death in this state of confusion.

Now, this may be the case with many people on a minor level. Something terrible may happen to them and they get mad at God for a day. They may wake up and not go to Mass. Now, according to this senerio, even though they have loved God their entire life and gone to mass every week, they would still go to hell.

It is hard to see this God in the Bible. I see one of understanding, compassion and forgiveness. This seems trivial and unlike the God of the Scriptures.

Michael

 

[michaelp]

You may be saved from the danger of deliberately, willfully neglecting your Sunday obligation. That is like saying, it is better not to get married so there is no chance of being unfaithful.

I am sorry, but I find it hard to equate getting married or not getting married with going to hell or not going to hell.

This is true, but you miss out on more than you gain. What you miss out on more because of your invincible ignorance is the grace of the sacraments. They actually sanctify you so your faith will be manifested in good works, like going to Mass, among others.

Truthfully, I would rather miss the glories of the mass than miss the glories of heaven.

 

[ppcpilot]

Oh my word! Even BEFORE I even learned about the Catholic religion or even thought about converting, that is EXACTLY what I feared the most, though not in the same situation. If I did not repent after I commited something, I would go to Hell! Though even if I did repent, I would still fear hell. Something must be wrong with me?

Nicole​

Nicole, that’s what they call scruples, and it’s ‘over worrying’ about something. If you are a true Catholic, you wouldn’t miss for any valid reason and not desire to repent! I know if I sin mortally, I can feel the grace of God leaving me, and I am in deep sorrow and regret until I can make it to confession on Saturdays. I try my hardest not to sin mortally, and it doesn’t happen very often.

Being a Catholic is not easy! It’s not a ‘happy go lucky’ kind of thing! It is the most serious of all commitments, and you have to accept that!

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Michael, you have twisted this into a pretzel We know without God grace we can do Nothing,right?We know our good works by themselves merit us nothing,right?What does willfully rejecting Gods grace bring?And what is more serious to betray man or God?If going to Church has been limited to studying scripture and singing and fellowship than you can do that at home you would never have to go to church.If there are no people sent to preach the word,forgive sins,annoint the sick,exorcise demons,and most importantly celebrate the Holy Eucharist,then you would be correct in your analogy,but it would be totally against scripture.God didn’t set up His Church to be legalistic He did it out of love.The Eucharist is strength for the journey and by the way is as full of graces as anything this side of heaven So in willfully choosing to miss Mass we choose against God,against grace, and in a very real way we decide we are our own God and don’t need Jesus.God Bless

 

[aridite]

michaelp:

Now, this may be the case with many people on a minor level. Something terrible may happen to them and they get mad at God for a day. They may wake up and not go to Mass. Now, according to this senerio, even though they have loved God their entire life and gone to mass every week, they would still go to hell…

I think these are mitigating circumstances, so your intuitions are probably correct. In such a situation, they probably do not have full knowledge and consent of the will. I’m sure God’s mercy sorts it out in full conformity with God’s justice.

michaelp:

I am sorry, but I find it hard to equate getting married or not getting married with going to hell or not going to hell…

I’m making an analogy, I suppose, between divorse and hell. Marriage : relationship with Christ :: adultery (or just neglect of spouse) : missing Mass :: end of marriage (divorse) : end of relationship with Christ (hell). Of couse this is the great mystery Christ speaks about in Ephesians 5. The analogy seems apt to me.

michaelp:

Truthfully, I would rather miss the glories of the mass than miss the glories of heaven.

Missing the glories of the Mass makes it less easy (all things being equal) to attain the glories of heaven.

 

[jeffreedy789]

you’re asking a complex question, and trying to make it simple, michaelp.

yes, deliberately skipping mass (wherein we meet with Jesus, and receive Him, bringing us eternal life) without a good reason is a mortal sin.

dying in a state of unconfessed mortal sin will damn you to hell.

one of the means of God’s grace is in giving us time to repent of our sins so that we DON’T die in a state of unconfessed, mortal sin.

you’re also asking if this is catholic concensus. it doesn’t work that way. the church isn’t a democracy. even if you asked 100,000 catholics some question, and they all said yes, it doesn’t mean the church teaches it. what you should ask, in other words, is ‘what does the church teach?’

the church teaches what we’ve said. what mortal sin means, and what happens if you die in a state of unconfessed mortal sin.

your argument about shooting people as they come out of the confession booth applies to your theology just as readily - to keep people from sinning, just kill them as soon as they ‘pray the sinners prayer’ or whatever they do in your theology to become christians.

and that brings me to turning the table completely around. it’s your turn now, michaelp. what do you believe a person must ‘do’ to be saved?

 

[Paris_Blues]

Now if you commit any sin, and confess it to God immediately, no delay, would you still have to confess that at Confession?

 

[ppcpilot]

God already knows what you did, and your innermost thoughts on the subject.