J
jeffreedy789
Guest
‘(If that’s your follow-up jr789, sorry for taking your thunder 
.)’
no fear. my thunder is secure.
.)’no fear. my thunder is secure.
Question for Catholics: Will you really go to hell for deliberatly missing mass?
- Status
C
chris138
Guest
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, or if this is valid here, I am not as knowledgeable as most on this forum but I thought that Mass attendance fell under the Commandment to Keep Holy the Lord’s Day and so when Jesus says…If you love me, keep my commandments and also when He says the statement about Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom…those who do the will of my Father.
We must obey the Commandments this is the will of the Father. I agree with everyone here that a person who is following the Lord, who loves the Lord would not miss Mass for an invalid reason. For a sin to be mortal or grave it must meet certain criteria: Serious matter(like breaking one of the Commandments), person knows it is serious, and the person does it anyway. When a person is angry with God, as we all are from time to time, we can either continue to be obeident to Him or sin by turning our back on Him. If we turn our back on Him (as I certainly have) then the faithful Catholic goes to Confession, repents and tries not to sin again.
I am sorry about your sister and my prayers are with you and your father.
God bless,
chris
We must obey the Commandments this is the will of the Father. I agree with everyone here that a person who is following the Lord, who loves the Lord would not miss Mass for an invalid reason. For a sin to be mortal or grave it must meet certain criteria: Serious matter(like breaking one of the Commandments), person knows it is serious, and the person does it anyway. When a person is angry with God, as we all are from time to time, we can either continue to be obeident to Him or sin by turning our back on Him. If we turn our back on Him (as I certainly have) then the faithful Catholic goes to Confession, repents and tries not to sin again.
I am sorry about your sister and my prayers are with you and your father.
God bless,
chris
A
aridite
Guest
Chris,
This is a valid and important point. I don’t know why none of us made it before now, but I’m glad you did. I feel kinda dumb, but some humbling is good for me (I guess
). Thanks for your post, and of course, we share in your condolenses and prayers.aridite
M
michaelp
Guest
Thank you all for your answers. They have been benificial in helping me understand the Catholic faith.
I pray that you all have a great day and happy New Year.
Michael
I pray that you all have a great day and happy New Year.
Michael
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
michaelp,
If this was already discussed above, my apologies for skimming through the thread. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
When grave sin is committed without the latter conditions of mortal sin, the sin is merely venial and does not separate from the grace of God.
The Church can and does tell the faithful what sins are grave matter. That’s one of her jobs. The Church does not, however, know the state of each individual’s intellect and will. The Catholic Church teaches that there exists many impediments to the will and intellect which can reduce and even eliminate the imputability and responsibility for our sinful actions.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
**CCC 1735 ***Imputability *and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.
**CCC 1860 **Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.
In the end, God is the sole judge of the state of one’s soul, as He does know the state of one’s intellect and will prior to committing sin.
The Catholic Church makes a distinction between material sin and formal sin (eg., you can be a material heretic without being a formal heretic).
It remains true, however, that even if one is a sinner their entire life, if they repent and die in a state of grace, they attain eternal glory with God. It is equally true that one can be a perfect saint their entire lives, yet before they die, if they reject God by their words or deeds (in heart), with full advertence and perfect willfulness, then they will not attain eternal life.
God is all merciful and just. You can have prayerful hope that your sister’s will and/or intellect may have been impeded before her death and that God will look upon her actions and know perfectly what those impediments were. He has Fatherly understanding of her soul’s state prior to death and has judged her with justice and mercy.
Not necessarily. As I think was stated earlier, the Church doesn’t send people to hell. The Church does say what is a grave sin. To be a mortal sin, three things are required: 1) grave matter, 2) full advertence, and 3) perfect consent of will.
If this was already discussed above, my apologies for skimming through the thread. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon11.gif
When grave sin is committed without the latter conditions of mortal sin, the sin is merely venial and does not separate from the grace of God.
The Church can and does tell the faithful what sins are grave matter. That’s one of her jobs. The Church does not, however, know the state of each individual’s intellect and will. The Catholic Church teaches that there exists many impediments to the will and intellect which can reduce and even eliminate the imputability and responsibility for our sinful actions.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
**CCC 1735 ***Imputability *and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.
**CCC 1860 **Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.
In the end, God is the sole judge of the state of one’s soul, as He does know the state of one’s intellect and will prior to committing sin.
The Catholic Church makes a distinction between material sin and formal sin (eg., you can be a material heretic without being a formal heretic).
Merely matieral sin lacks full advertence and/or perfect consent of will (subjective elements). Grave sins (murder, adultery, sloth, lust, etc), may indeed be objectively, materially grave, but may not necessarily be formal sin. When the Church speaks of the grave consequences of sin, she refers to both material and formal sins, yet all sin has serious temporal consequences whereas formal sins (and merely original sin) have eternal consequences if one remains impenitent of formal/original sin to the end.
It remains true, however, that even if one is a sinner their entire life, if they repent and die in a state of grace, they attain eternal glory with God. It is equally true that one can be a perfect saint their entire lives, yet before they die, if they reject God by their words or deeds (in heart), with full advertence and perfect willfulness, then they will not attain eternal life.
God is all merciful and just. You can have prayerful hope that your sister’s will and/or intellect may have been impeded before her death and that God will look upon her actions and know perfectly what those impediments were. He has Fatherly understanding of her soul’s state prior to death and has judged her with justice and mercy.
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
michaelp,
You said:
Secondly, you misunderstand what “full knowledge and consent” is according to Catholic teaching. If you do not know perfectly well that your actions are seriously evil, than you lack full advertence. According to Pope St. Pius X:
Catholicism teaches: “Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed.*** In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right.***” (CCC 1778). Of course, your conscience can be wrong, especially if it is not correctly informed. That is why one must “Return to your conscience, question it. . . . Turn inward, brethren, and in everything you do, see God as your witness” (St. Augustine, In ep Jo. 8,9
L 35,2041).
Thirdly, while you may not be committing the grave sin of not attending Mass (as non-Catholics are not bound to attend Mass) you are committing the grave sin of heresy. However, whether that sin is material (venial) or formal (mortal, with full knowledge/consent) is known only to you and God. Furthermore, God knows of impediments to our will that we may not even be aware of. Catholics realize that God is not done with any of us just yet.
Fourthly, you have an incorrect understanding of invincible ignorance. Ignorance can be in itself a sin. It may even be a mortal sin, if such ignorance is affected. So, don’t think you are off the hook if only you can keep ignorant of Catholicism through affected ignorance. That’s not what Catholicism teaches. Affected ignorance can actually increase culpability because it adds the element of malice.
According to St. Thomas Aquinas:
You said:
Firstly, you are not bound to attend Mass as you are not Catholic. You are not committing mortal sin by not attending Mass. BTW it is MORTAL with a “t” not “moral” sin. This is from St. John’s description of sins that are “deadly.”
Secondly, you misunderstand what “full knowledge and consent” is according to Catholic teaching. If you do not know perfectly well that your actions are seriously evil, than you lack full advertence. According to Pope St. Pius X:
You are bound to follow what your conscience is telling you. It is the aboriginal vicar of Christ. It is there that the Holy Spirit moves you to act and believe.
Catholicism teaches: “Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed.*** In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right.***” (CCC 1778). Of course, your conscience can be wrong, especially if it is not correctly informed. That is why one must “Return to your conscience, question it. . . . Turn inward, brethren, and in everything you do, see God as your witness” (St. Augustine, In ep Jo. 8,9
L 35,2041).Thirdly, while you may not be committing the grave sin of not attending Mass (as non-Catholics are not bound to attend Mass) you are committing the grave sin of heresy. However, whether that sin is material (venial) or formal (mortal, with full knowledge/consent) is known only to you and God. Furthermore, God knows of impediments to our will that we may not even be aware of. Catholics realize that God is not done with any of us just yet.
Fourthly, you have an incorrect understanding of invincible ignorance. Ignorance can be in itself a sin. It may even be a mortal sin, if such ignorance is affected. So, don’t think you are off the hook if only you can keep ignorant of Catholicism through affected ignorance. That’s not what Catholicism teaches. Affected ignorance can actually increase culpability because it adds the element of malice.
According to St. Thomas Aquinas:
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
St. Thomas continues:
R
Robert_in_SD
Guest
MichaelP;
I agree that there are many instances in which a person can get angry with God. But that does not answer the question. You continue to misconstrue the Catholic understanding of sin and salvation in your comments. It is not as mechanical as you suggest above.
If a person misses mass because they choose to deliberately disobey God, but they repent of that sin and ask God’s forgiveness before they die, they will not go to Hell. But if they choose to deliberately disobey God’s commandments, and do not repent of their sins, they are the ones distancing themselves from God in the first place, and will not spend eternity in His presence unless and until they do repent and ask forgiveness.
Can’t you see that this result is entirely consistent with a just and loving God who is always there with arms outstretched to receive us when we ask forgiveness? I hope the other posts to this thread have shed some light on your concerns. I’ve tried my best. I wish you well in your quest for truth.
Peace,
M
michaelp
Guest
Robert in SD:
Is it possible for a person to repent in hell? In other words, think if a person who committed a mortal sin (missed mass) because he was angry with God that day, died immediately after the sin, and even though he has been a follower and lover of God all his life, he is suffering eternally in hell. Has this guy or gal suddenly become a eternal hater of God? Or do you think he can come to his senses shortly after waking up in hell, realize what he did, and then wish that he had repented? But, even though he did well and loved the Lord his entire life, he was still bound to the fate of that one sin? Or do you think that one mortal sin (such as missing mass) turned him into an eternal hater of God?
T
TPJCatholic
Guest
michaelp,
I don’t think you see that once a person intentionally, knowingly, and willfully commits mortal sin, they have intentionally, knowingly, and willfully broken their relationship with God. That relationship can be repaired through repentence…yet it cannot be repaired unless the sinner desires forgiveness.
Further, you are painting scenarios that no-one here can answer with certitude. The simple truth is, God may give each one of us a final chance to repent at the very moment of our death, and if that is true then the person in your scenario would have a final chance to tell God he is sorry for having missed Mass.
I heard of a story where a man jumped off a bridge to commit suicide. That is a mortal sin, yet on the way down he beggged God for forgiveness and his soul was saved…though his human body still died from the jump. This story came in a vision to a Catholic and the account applies well to what I have said here.
I don’t think you see that once a person intentionally, knowingly, and willfully commits mortal sin, they have intentionally, knowingly, and willfully broken their relationship with God. That relationship can be repaired through repentence…yet it cannot be repaired unless the sinner desires forgiveness.
Further, you are painting scenarios that no-one here can answer with certitude. The simple truth is, God may give each one of us a final chance to repent at the very moment of our death, and if that is true then the person in your scenario would have a final chance to tell God he is sorry for having missed Mass.
I heard of a story where a man jumped off a bridge to commit suicide. That is a mortal sin, yet on the way down he beggged God for forgiveness and his soul was saved…though his human body still died from the jump. This story came in a vision to a Catholic and the account applies well to what I have said here.
A
aridite
Guest
Michael,
Are you saying it not possible for a life-long lover of God to turn his back on God through one mortal sin? If missing Mass seems too petty, how about adultery? That’s a serious sin, right? I’m confused whether you think missing Mass is not that big of a deal (not worthy of eternal damnation) or whether you think God would not condemn a person who had been virtuous his whole life but rejected God at the end. My citation of Ezekiel above gives evidence that God would condemn someone who rejected him at the end. This seems consistent with God’s infinite love and justice.
S
Sherlock
Guest
Michael,
You asked, “Is it possible for a person to repent in hell?”
No. Hell has an entrance, but is not supplied with an exit.
Anyway, TPJCatholic just stole my thunder: namely, that you are asking for certitude regarding the final destination of a hypothetical individual, when no one can give that kind of certitude. God alone knows the specific fate of specific individuals (with the exception of canonized saints that the Church professes): the Church can and does tell us that unrepented mortal sin will lead to hell, but how can we know, with certitude, the heart and mind of your hypothetical individual? You are looking for some sort of legalistic formula, which is a very sad and poverty-stricken way of viewing Christian life.
Catholics view the attendance at Mass as observance of the First and Third Commandments. That you think a violation of those commandments don’t “equal” a violation of the Sixth Commandment is perhaps interesting, but is simply not a Catholic way of viewing the situation.
You asked, “Is it possible for a person to repent in hell?”
No. Hell has an entrance, but is not supplied with an exit.
Anyway, TPJCatholic just stole my thunder: namely, that you are asking for certitude regarding the final destination of a hypothetical individual, when no one can give that kind of certitude. God alone knows the specific fate of specific individuals (with the exception of canonized saints that the Church professes): the Church can and does tell us that unrepented mortal sin will lead to hell, but how can we know, with certitude, the heart and mind of your hypothetical individual? You are looking for some sort of legalistic formula, which is a very sad and poverty-stricken way of viewing Christian life.
Catholics view the attendance at Mass as observance of the First and Third Commandments. That you think a violation of those commandments don’t “equal” a violation of the Sixth Commandment is perhaps interesting, but is simply not a Catholic way of viewing the situation.
J
jeffreedy789
Guest
it’s interesting to me that michaelp will come and shoot holes in catholic teaching (very diplomatically and politely, i add), but won’t answer a simple question, even when that question might help him understand the catholic position more fully.
M
michaelp
Guest
All of you have simply said that if a person turns their back on God, Apostacy, they will go to hell. None of you have said that it was missing mass that was the mortal sin, but the heart of the individual behind the mortal sin. Each of you have said that a person would not miss mass unless his heart was evil and deserving of hell because he has rejected God. So, again, apostacy is the sin, not missing mass? But missing mass might evidence this apostacy, but not necessarily, since there might be other reasons besides apostacy (turning away from God) that caused the person to miss mass.
This makes more sense. I just could not get by the fact that someone could believe that missing one mass without a valid excuse necessarily was going to send them to hell. I think that you all might want to find better ways to communicate this if this is the case. You will have people going to mass only so they will not go to hell. That does ot seem like good motivation.
Just my thoughts.
Michael
This makes more sense. I just could not get by the fact that someone could believe that missing one mass without a valid excuse necessarily was going to send them to hell. I think that you all might want to find better ways to communicate this if this is the case. You will have people going to mass only so they will not go to hell. That does ot seem like good motivation.
Just my thoughts.
Michael
T
TPJCatholic
Guest
michaelp,
Please answer these questions: Do you (from our limited human perspective) think it is fair that all humanity would suffer because Adam and Eve ate some fruit? Do you really think eating some fruit is worth death? What do you think is worse, eating some fruit, commiting adultery or missing Mass?
Please answer these questions: Do you (from our limited human perspective) think it is fair that all humanity would suffer because Adam and Eve ate some fruit? Do you really think eating some fruit is worth death? What do you think is worse, eating some fruit, commiting adultery or missing Mass?
L
Lisa4Catholics
Guest
The mortal sin behind it is knowledge ,free will and deliberate consent. If you have circumstances that interfere with any of those it is not mortal.God Bless
M
michaelp
Guest
Actually, I believe, like Tomas Aquinas, that the condemnation of all people based upon the one sin of Adam was a gracious impution that identifies us all with the first Adam* so that* we could then be identified with the second Adam. If God had not imputed his sin to us, then He could not have imputed Christ’s reughteousness to us. But Catholics do not believe in imputed sin or righteousness the way that would make this understandable.
Therefore, the sin in the Garden was not a sin that would send anyone to hell for eternity. Hell is eternal, I believe, because people are in eternal rebellion against God. Their nature is not changed and is therefore evil. The sin in the Garden was the sin of apostacy in the best of circumstances that we cannot compare any of our situations to.
Michael
T
TPJCatholic
Guest
michaelp,
It is interesting that you did not really answer the questions I asked; rather, you created new questions and answered them.
Respectfully, you will not be able to get “at” the answers you seek if you do not forthrightly answer queries intended to help move the conversation forward.
It is interesting that you did not really answer the questions I asked; rather, you created new questions and answered them.
Respectfully, you will not be able to get “at” the answers you seek if you do not forthrightly answer queries intended to help move the conversation forward.
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
michaelp,
You are still thinking in terms of what one does to get to heaven and what one does to get to hell. That’s far from Catholic theology.
Let me be plain. Nothing you can do will send you to hell. Nothing … excepting final impenitence. There are many grave sins. Each grave sin committed with full advertence and perfect consent of will is indeed a mortal sin. However, only final impenitence can send you to hell. Final impenitence is not a sin of commission, but a sin of omission. I can miss mass a billion times, so long as I do not commit the unforgiveable sin of final impenitence, I will not go to hell (and you can’t fake repentence with God as your judge).
You are still thinking in terms of what one does to get to heaven and what one does to get to hell. That’s far from Catholic theology.
Let me be plain. Nothing you can do will send you to hell. Nothing … excepting final impenitence. There are many grave sins. Each grave sin committed with full advertence and perfect consent of will is indeed a mortal sin. However, only final impenitence can send you to hell. Final impenitence is not a sin of commission, but a sin of omission. I can miss mass a billion times, so long as I do not commit the unforgiveable sin of final impenitence, I will not go to hell (and you can’t fake repentence with God as your judge).
T
TPJCatholic
Guest
itsjustdave,
I agree and disagree. Mortal sins are acts of free will.
I agree and disagree. Mortal sins are acts of free will.
- Status