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michaelp
Guest
Sorry, I thought that my answer was implied.
Yes, based on the senario I said above.
No.
Committing adultery.
Michael
Question for Catholics: Will you really go to hell for deliberatly missing mass?
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Yes, based on the senario I said above.
Michael
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michaelp
Guest
This makes sense. So the Catholic Church determines that all sins can send you to hell so far as they evidence an apostate heart? In other words, someone who commits one of the “grave” sins with full knowledge and concent, has turned away from God. So it is not the sin itself that sends a person to hell, but their rejection of God.
Michael
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TPJCatholic
Guest
michaelp,
Thank you for answering the questions. I feel you have a mistaken idea regarding the original sin of Adam and Eve. Original sin was a sin of disobedience…plain and simple, as the following passage reflects:
Romans 5:18-19
*Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous. *
Adam commited a real sin, one that lead to all mankind being made sinners and that was the result of eating fruit! The action is not the important thing, it is the willfull, knowing, disobedience to God’s will/command.
Commiting adultery is the same thing–so is intentionally, willfully and knowingly missing Mass for no good reason.
Thank you for answering the questions. I feel you have a mistaken idea regarding the original sin of Adam and Eve. Original sin was a sin of disobedience…plain and simple, as the following passage reflects:
Romans 5:18-19
*Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous. *
Adam commited a real sin, one that lead to all mankind being made sinners and that was the result of eating fruit! The action is not the important thing, it is the willfull, knowing, disobedience to God’s will/command.
Commiting adultery is the same thing–so is intentionally, willfully and knowingly missing Mass for no good reason.
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aridite
Guest
You seem to miss the clarity that breaking mortal sins down into grave matter, full knowledge, full consent of the will is supposed to bring. Missing Mass is not the sin of apostacy but it is grave matter because it is a grave violation of the Third Commandment. Is it that you have a problem that missing Mass is not really a violation of the third commandment, or that it really is not grave? By saying it make sense if it equivalent to apostacy, you seem to be looking at the act of the will, as though this is the real sin, turning your back on God. Such an act of the will would be a sin; it would be apostacy, but the grave matter of missing Mass is itself its own kind of sin. All sin is disobedience, but adultery is different form apostacy is different from missing Mass. But they are all grave matter, and when done freely (with knowledge and concent), they are mortal.
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rlg94086
Guest
Hi Michael,
When you say “this makes sense”, does it match with your interpretation of Scripture? If not, what is your belief?
In addition, as Catholics the billion-time mass-missing individual would still spend some time in Purgatory. Here is the Catholic teaching as summed up in our Catechism:
,On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin…**/**QUOTE]
What, if any, are the consequences of sin for “saved” Christian in your understanding?
Thank you for your posts. In addition to learning from you, I am getting a deeper understanding of my Church.
God Bless,
Robert.
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michaelp
Guest
Actually Original sin can be spoken of in two senses:
- The sin that Adam and Eve originally committed in the Garden.
- The origin of sin in human kind.
a. Imputed sin. This is spoken of in both Rom 5:18. It is the idea that we are held accountable for the sin of Adam. In other words we are condemened for something that he did.
b. Inhereted sin. This is spoken of in Rom 5:19. It is the idea that we all have a sin nature or that we have inherited an inclination to sin, sometimes referred to as a sin nature.
I do believe that both of these concepts are biblical.
Got it. I agree. It is the idea that they turned their backs on God to some degree. This is expecially serious considering they did not start with a fallen nature.
I agree. But the illustration breaks down since you and I cannot fathom what it was like to be in the Garden without a fallen nature and still disobeyed God. But the great thing is that God immediately took care of them showing them grace and they did not even show repentance. They just lied and played cover up.
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michaelp
Guest
Hey Robert. I will tell you where I am at right now, but I don’t want to get into a debate about it. I do not believe that a true believer will ever turn on God. I believe that someone who chooses to commit sin loses rewards in this life and in the next, but it does not affect his or her eternity with God. I don’t believe that anything can take us out of the hand of God (expecially ourselves!)…
I am just trying to understand the Catholic position, not argue for mine.
Michael
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Sherlock
Guest
Michaelp,
Let me ask: why is breaking the Third Commandment less offensive than breaking the Sixth?
Let me ask: why is breaking the Third Commandment less offensive than breaking the Sixth?
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rlg94086
Guest
Thank you! I’m not looking for debate either, but I do want to understand your viewpoint. I apologize for any previous posts which may have been more directly challenging. I’m primarily here to learn, but I have found it to be a great place to work on humility
.Just one question for clarification - what rewards in Heaven would be lost?
I’m not sure of the exact Catholic teaching. Since we are perfected in Purgatory, I’m not sure if there are greater rewards in Heaven for some. Perhaps someone more knowledgable than me can speak to this.
God Bless,
Robert.
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CatholicCrusade
Guest
Any mortal sin sends you to Hell. I don’t know where you came up with this teaching.
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michaelp
Guest
The commandment is to rest and keep the day holy, not (in my opinion), going to mass.
But I do think that some commandments speak of sins that are worse than others. I think that murder is worse than telling a lie. Don’t you? I bet that if you were to put a poll out on this forum asking what is worse, murder or telling a lie, most would say murder.
Michael
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Why then are you a pastor? What is the purpose of worship?Why have a Church?There is a Babtist pastor that every so often gives his congregation a day off to be with their family on Sunday,does that not strike you as strange?God Bless
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TPJCatholic
Guest
michaelp,
God did not show Adam and Eve Grace after they commited the first sin; rather, he cast them from paradise and completed His Divine Promise by causing their human bodies to die. Adam and Eve, along with all humanity, have to suffer the throngs of death because Adam and Eve disobeyed. They key to the fall is dosobedience, plain and simply. Mankind fell because of the disobedience of one man; mankind rises because of the perfect obedience of one man–Jesus Christ.
There is no value judgment on mortal sin–a sin is either mortal, or it is not. A knowledgable Catholic MUST go to Mass on Sundays and days of obligation unless they have an important reason not to attend. If that same Catholic willfully, intentionally, and knowingly chooses not to go to Mass for no good reason, then that is a mortal sin and holds the same value as adultery or murder, or any other mortal sin. Mortal sin is mortal sin, and all mortal sin separates a person from God–we cut ourselves off from God with every mortal sin we commit. Mortal sins are acts of disobedience to God, just as Adam and Eve disobeyed God and all of humanity suffers for their sin. Note that God did not require Adam and Eve to “understand” His command not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good an evil, nor did God tell Adam and Eve that He wanted their opinion about the fairness of His command. Rather, God expected obedience and they fell from that expectation.
God did not show Adam and Eve Grace after they commited the first sin; rather, he cast them from paradise and completed His Divine Promise by causing their human bodies to die. Adam and Eve, along with all humanity, have to suffer the throngs of death because Adam and Eve disobeyed. They key to the fall is dosobedience, plain and simply. Mankind fell because of the disobedience of one man; mankind rises because of the perfect obedience of one man–Jesus Christ.
There is no value judgment on mortal sin–a sin is either mortal, or it is not. A knowledgable Catholic MUST go to Mass on Sundays and days of obligation unless they have an important reason not to attend. If that same Catholic willfully, intentionally, and knowingly chooses not to go to Mass for no good reason, then that is a mortal sin and holds the same value as adultery or murder, or any other mortal sin. Mortal sin is mortal sin, and all mortal sin separates a person from God–we cut ourselves off from God with every mortal sin we commit. Mortal sins are acts of disobedience to God, just as Adam and Eve disobeyed God and all of humanity suffers for their sin. Note that God did not require Adam and Eve to “understand” His command not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good an evil, nor did God tell Adam and Eve that He wanted their opinion about the fairness of His command. Rather, God expected obedience and they fell from that expectation.
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michaelp
Guest
Actually, no. And evangelical attendence at Church is not really anything to be ashamed of. Our people go not out of fear of hell, but out of desire to worship, learn, and fellowship with the body of Christ.
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michaelp
Guest
You don’t think that the promise to send Christ was gracious? Gen 3:15.
I guess that is why it might be better for people to stay invincibly ignorant of the Catholic Church. They seem to have a better chance of getting to heaven if they stay away since they won’t go to hell for missing one Sunday.
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
We go to love and worship,too.But one thing that You have forgotten about us as Catholics is the Eucharist, indifference and lukewarmness is a spiritual cancer.God Bless
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TPJCatholic
Guest
michaelp,
Catholics go to Mass in order to learn, to spiritually grow, to have fellowship with other Christians, to hear the Word of God, and to receive the precious and Real Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Catholics do no go to Mass out of fear of going to hell.
Catholics go to Mass in order to learn, to spiritually grow, to have fellowship with other Christians, to hear the Word of God, and to receive the precious and Real Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Catholics do no go to Mass out of fear of going to hell.
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michaelp
Guest
Thanks.
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michaelp
Guest
You have the Eucharist and Charismatics have their worship experience. My experience comes when God changes lives through His word. We all have our, “If you would only come and experience our . . .” testimony. It is nice.
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rlg94086
Guest
I’m not an apologist, but I think what itsjustdave said was accurate.
IOW, said person had many grave sins but was contrite, asked for forgiveness and was forgiven at the end of his life. If he was impenitent, what itsjustdave refers to as a “sin of omission”, he would go to hell due to being in a state of grave sin.
The only technicality IMHO would be that the grave sins are the billion missed Masses, not the “sin of omission”. This distinction is moot…he’s still headed for the fiery furnace.
God Bless,
Robert.
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