Question for choir directors complaining about the new Mass settings

[I_Thirst]

Actually, in spite of our parish’s choice to use the Mass of the Most Holy Trinity, we are also incorporating some great Latin chant into the Mass. This is our chance - hooray!

That is great news! Excellent!!!

Also, it is very difficult to go back to Gregorian chant for the entire Mass without a full, trained choir. At our little cathedral in farming country, it ain’t gonna happen.

Gregorian chant doesn’t require a full, trained choir. Do you think that abbots held auditions for monks in monasteries? Was Abbot Simon Cowell one of the judges for Gregorian Chant Idol?

When you compare the demands of the contemporary hymns (syncopations, accidentals, range, part singing, etc) to Gregorian chant, it’s easy to see that Gregorian chant is much easier to sing. A choir sings una voce – with one voice. Another way of describing Gregorian chant is plainsong, which means a simple melody without adornment or without accompaniment.

Of course, the “without accompaniment” is the issue. Dismissing choir instrumentalists wouldn’t go over well as you can imagine.

Admittedly, there is some training involved, but choirs are always in training.

 

[Cat]

Try high school choir directors. In our school district the standards for high school choirs include sacred music and my daughter learned most of Jubilate Deo last year in an advance choir.

:bigyikes:

Are you serious?!

Wow.

In our city, ANY mention of God (Christian God) is absolutely forbidden in the public schools. Even songs about Santa have been nixed because of the association with Christianity.

But it really doesn’t matter, because our high schools share one choir director, so the kids only get choir one day a week anyway.

It wasn’t always like this. I grew up in public schools in our city, and we sang sacred music, including Latin, and we sang Christmas carols, including the Christian ones, during the season.

Are you perhaps referring to Catholic school choir directors?

Thanks.

 

[FatHead]

:bigyikes:

Are you serious?!

Wow.

In our city, ANY mention of God (Christian God) is absolutely forbidden in the public schools. Even songs about Santa have been nixed because of the association with Christianity

my thoughts exactly

 

[Sarabande]

Actually, in spite of our parish’s choice to use the Mass of the Most Holy Trinity, we are also incorporating some great Latin chant into the Mass. This is our chance - hooray!
Also, it is very difficult to go back to Gregorian chant for the entire Mass without a full, trained choir. At our little cathedral in farming country, it ain’t gonna happen.
So I do the best I can as Resident Musician for the church, which is paw through piles of bad music to find some good stuff for our congregation that is reverent and yet easy to sing. They are not and never will be musicians and pro singers, but I CAN say that since I have arrived (two years ago) we have gone from zero congregational participation to nearly full participation. Don’t mean to brag, but they are singing the really old hymns with zest!
Anyway we do what we can!

That is sooooooo AWESOME!!!

Your parish is very fortunate to have you.

 

[Sarabande]

We have a fairly large Catholic school in our neighboring parish. As far as I can tell, Gregorian chant isn’t part of the program (though that may have changed). The public schools can’t even do Christmas music, and I’m not sure that they would have much luck with Catholic sacred music. Plus, I don’t want to hear sacred music at a high school choir performance – I want to hear it at Mass.

But I hear what you’re saying. Grade school or high school are great places to teach children Gregorian chant.

Christmas music, true, is usually no longer permitted to be performed for concerts in most public schools. I remember the year after I graduated from high school, they banned this beautiful choral rendition of Adeste Fideles for the Holiday Concert. It also could no longer be called a Holiday Concert.

What I have found, though, is that music directors can get away with teaching their choirs classical sacred/religious choral works (for example: movements from Bach’s Mass in b-minor, Beethoven’s Mt. of Olives, etc… all things I’ve seen high school choirs do, including my own) because so much really good classical choral music through the centuries were religious-based. So, they treat the music as part of music history and part of the music training. The other thing I have seen used a lot are African-American Spirituals which will be used in conjunction with Black History Month. Many music directors, whether or not they have any kind of belief in God, do see the importance of teaching this kind of music to kids, so they have thought of ways to get around it.

But unfortunately, any typical Christmas/Hannukah songs will still be out in most public schools, unless, of course, you decide to stick in something like Victoria’s “O Magnum Mysterium” during a regular non-specified concert, just to show a specific period and style of choral music.

In regards to the OP, what Cat and a few others have said is spot on. The new settings are just pretty dull and uninspiring. You can find a couple ok works, but it’s not overwhelming. In terms of getting parishes to just do chant, some will be ok with it, but I think there are pastors who are not ok with it. I’ve worked at a few parishes where the pastors are adamant about never putting chant into the mass at their churches. I also know a couple priests who are upset with the new translations as well, in terms of just “why are they doing it now?” and “why didn’t they just do it correctly the first time around?”

At the parish where I currently work, they are making up pew cards with the new wording and we are going to go little by little to learn each new piece of it by the time Advent comes along. The pastor is being as “nonchalant” about it as possible in order to avoid his parishioners becoming stressed over it. That’s the last thing he wants. We are creatures of habit, so it can be hard to break habits, especially for older people who don’t like change.

 

[Cat]

ok I see now, I’m pretty blessed to be where I am for the Mass Changes, the liturgy here is amazing and the fact that there are mostly seminarians and monks at every mass, there won’t be much of an issue for us. My home parish as well won’t have as big of an issue just because mainly the liturgy is on the high side at my old home parish. But I can think of a few parishes who will struggle through these translations, and from stories I have heard from my seminarian brothers, I can imagine there could be some serious back lash from parishioners who don’t like change.

If I were a priest which I hope to be one day, I would give my parishioners plenty of warning, I would try and schedule classes a couple weeks before in order so that the Lay faithful can be prepared for the new Mass. At Seminary we actually have one of the Bishops retired now who was apart of putting this new translation together coming to talk to us really for an entire day or weekend I think.

But most parishes aren’t blessed with that, so I think its important the priest to the best of their ability prepare their parishioner for the Change, because no matter if they like it or not, they will have to deal with these new changes.

I am very excited though, I new translation wise it will really add a lot to the Mass, and it will add a new meaning to the prayers that the priests say. It’s exciting

We actually have had a lot of advanced notification of this new translation. In fact, seven years ago, when my husband and I were in RCIA, there was a lot of talk about the changes coming.

The announcement about the New Translation was made last year, before Advent.

And all year long, we’ve had notices and articles about the New Translation.

I don’t think classes will work, as most people will not attend because they don’t attend anything other than obligation Mass. But there will be classes, and they should start up now any day.

The music directors and teachers in our diocese have been attending classes for the last year now, learning about their options.

So it’s not a question of a surprise being sprung on any of us.

And I think that people will do just fine with the new liturgy.

The music, though, is another issue. Our school music ed programs are so dismal, that we have at least two generations of people who simply don’t know how to sing. I personally do not believe that it is possible to teach non-singers chant, and do it well.

In fact, there has been a Latin Mass parish in our city for over a decade, and they have an excellent schola director who is knowledgeable and personable. I know several of the choir members.

My husband attended the Latin Mass a few weeks ago. He said that the music was just awful. Couldn’t even hear it, totally unbalanced between the parts, because there are only about a dozen people in the schola.

The impression that CAF traditionally-minded Catholics give me (and others) is that if (1) the TLM Mass and (2) traditional “Catholic” music are offered, that there will be a stampede of Catholics who are thrilled to finally be able to attend Latin Mass and sing Catholic music again.

Well, that just hasn’t happened here. Maybe we are the sole city in which many thousands of Catholics ignore the Latin Mass and the traditional schola.

But I don’t think so. I think that although there will always be that small remnant of people who want to attend Latin Mass and sing in a schola, that most people in the U.S. will have no interest in either Latin Mass or traditional music/chant.

I could be wrong. And if I’m wrong, I’ll pay you a dollar!

At any rate, the music situation in our city is very bad because of 30 or more years of bad music education in our schools. We have two generations who do not sing, and IMO, it will not work here to have a lot of chant and polyphony and other ancient forms of music in Masses. If the Latin Mass parish can’t produce a good chant and polyphony after over ten years, how on earth will OF parishes produce good chant and polyphony, or even bearable chant and polyphony?

**I personally think we in the U.S. would be better off to call in experts on composing songs for children, songs that feature good strong regular melody lines in a reasonable range with minimal rhythmic irregularities (no syncopation), and ask these experts to please compose some Mass settings that children and non-singing adults can learn easily and enjoyably. I think that plan would make more sense, and be a much more acceptable plan to most parishes than trying to bring back music forms that most of us in the U.S. are no longer equipped to teach and/or learn. **

I would be willing to bet more than a dollar that after a year or two of failed chant attempts and badly-botched attempts at polyphony, and parishes watching people stream out the doors to go the Protestant megachurches with the professional praise bands, that this plan of mine will be what happens. Sorry to all of you who love ancient music forms, but I believe you were born out of time. It’s unfortunate for you, but we have to face reality in the U.S.

 

[I_Thirst]

The music, though, is another issue. Our school music ed programs are so dismal, that we have at least two generations of people who simply don’t know how to sing. I personally do not believe that it is possible to teach non-singers chant, and do it well.

Gregorian chant has been taught to non-singers for centuries. In my personal experience, as someone who has taught Gregorian chant to non-singers as well as teaching music for a living, it is actually not that difficult to teach or to learn. From what I gather from others teaching it, the experience is the same. Have you had difficulty teaching Gregorian chant to non-singers?

Many of our contemporary hymns with their syncopated rhythms and extended ranges are difficult for untrained singers. Gregorian chant is not a “singer’s” or “performer’s” music. The rhythms are simple and the range is rarely more than octave (most of them are as simple as Amazing Grace or When The Saints Go Marching In). It was developed in monasteries, not in concert halls. I’m not claiming that there are no difficult pieces in Gregorian chant (for there are), but it is definitely not a virtuostic music that only a small segment of the population can sing well.

One needs far more training to sing On Eagle’s Wings well than to sing Agnus Dei well. Schubert’s Ave Maria is a technically challenging piece and isn’t meant for untrained singers. The Ave Maria often heard in Gregorian chant has no where near the difficulties of Schubert’s (or Gounod/Bach’s for that matter) – it is approachable by untrained singers, which means folks in the pews.

**I personally think we in the U.S. would be better off to call in experts on composing songs for children, songs that feature good strong regular melody lines in a reasonable range with minimal rhythmic irregularities (no syncopation), and ask these experts to please compose some Mass settings that children and non-singing adults can learn easily and enjoyably. I think that plan would make more sense, and be a much more acceptable plan to most parishes than trying to bring back music forms that most of us in the U.S. are no longer equipped to teach and/or learn. **

It has been done already – Gregorian chant is exactly that.

 

[ProVobis]

I’ve been to Spanish-language Masses, and the music was terrible (it made me grateful for what I’ve heard in English–language Masses ). I plan on attending an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy in a couple of weeks – and that is at least a 30-minute drive from my parish.

Well, I’m not going to say the Polish Mass doesn’t have its share of clappy-type music but there is a different culture present there. And perhaps a good-change-of-pace if nothing else.

Even an Anglican royal wedding did well with a Latin motet.

youtube.com/watch?v=3KjZvC_ga9M

Let us know how the DL goes. I am planning on attending an Arabic one myself.

 

[Cat]

Gregorian chant has been taught to non-singers for centuries. In my personal experience, as someone who has taught Gregorian chant to non-singers as well as teaching music for a living, it is actually not that difficult to teach or to learn. From what I gather from others teaching it, the experience is the same. Have you had difficulty teaching Gregorian chant to non-singers?

I’m not a music teacher, I’m an accompanist. I’ve tried to learn read neumes with little success.

[/quote]
[/QUOTE]

 

[catholictiger]

We actually have had a lot of advanced notification of this new translation. In fact, seven years ago, when my husband and I were in RCIA, there was a lot of talk about the changes coming.

The announcement about the New Translation was made last year, before Advent.

And all year long, we’ve had notices and articles about the New Translation.

I remember hearing about it two years ago.

I don’t think classes will work, as most people will not attend because they don’t attend anything other than obligation Mass. But there will be classes, and they should start up now any day.

I’m not saying use the class to teach the lay faithful but rather the leaders in the liturgy, lectors maybe alter servers, musicians, and who ever else like to attend. No matter how many you teach there will be a large amount who will take a while to adjust to the new translations. But the more the faithful know about it the better prepared they will be

The music directors and teachers in our diocese have been attending classes for the last year now, learning about their options.

So it’s not a question of a surprise being sprung on any of us.

I know I never said that it was being sprung on people. But there will be people who will be

And I think that people will do just fine with the new liturgy.

The music, though, is another issue. Our school music ed programs are so dismal, that we have at least two generations of people who simply don’t know how to sing. I personally do not believe that it is possible to teach non-singers chant, and do it well

.

no you can’t and chant isn’t always the best option, I think in a parish who at first probably can’t handle chant, use hymnal music, not some of the stuff from the Gather, that is bland and boring but stuff that actually shows us a deeper understand of the things that are taking place in the liturgy.

In fact, there has been a Latin Mass parish in our city for over a decade, and they have an excellent schola director who is knowledgeable and personable. I know several of the choir members.

that is great, and here at the seminary the liturgy is amazing, well that is expected from benedictines, but they don’t include much latin in their mass and it is still very beautiful and sacred. Even though all they do is chant.

My husband attended the Latin Mass a few weeks ago. He said that the music was just awful. Couldn’t even hear it, totally unbalanced between the parts, because there are only about a dozen people in the schola.

that may be on the director, because balance in the parts while it helps isn’t always an excuse to not sound good. You can make a unbalance section sound good with the right ears.

The impression that CAF traditionally-minded Catholics give me (and others) is that if (1) the TLM Mass and (2) traditional “Catholic” music are offered, that there will be a stampede of Catholics who are thrilled to finally be able to attend Latin Mass and sing Catholic music again.

if the music is done effectively sure but i don’t think it has to be TLM to have the faithful flock to mass. If the Music is done effective in any setting, the mass is said with love, and said in a way that meets the needs of the people. If you are in a part of the country who don’t flock to the Latin Mass, then trying to get a lot more of that isn’t meeting the needs of the flock, rather it may be meeting the needs of the priest and him alone. A priest is called to minister to his people, and meet them where they are at, not to bring them to his position without meeting them.

So as a priest or someone who may be in charge of the liturgy, his goal is to meet his people where they are and then bring them deeper into their faith.

sorry I’m talking so much from the perspective of a priest but I feel like its the area that I know the most about, and while the lay have (name removed by moderator)ut, priest a lot of times are kinda the last say on many of these issues.

Well, that just hasn’t happened here. Maybe we are the sole city in which many thousands of Catholics ignore the Latin Mass and the traditional schola.

as I said earlier meet the people where they are not the other way around

But I don’t think so. I think that although there will always be that small remnant of people who want to attend Latin Mass and sing in a schola, that most people in the U.S. will have no interest in either Latin Mass or traditional music/chant.

I could be wrong. And if I’m wrong, I’ll pay you a dollar!

I think you are correct, but again don’t try to bring more people to the LTM meet people where they are and then when they are ready slowly move them into a more reverent practice of the mass. This is what happened in my life, when I was on fire for my faith I didn’t become right away this amazing reverent man who did all these things that showed reverence to the Mass, no it took me a few years to get to the point where I am now.

I have to go I’ll get back to this later tonight.

my schedule a seminary is pretty full.

 

[Cat]

I remember hearing about it two years ago.

I’m not saying use the class to teach the lay faithful but rather the leaders in the liturgy, lectors maybe alter servers, musicians, and who ever else like to attend. No matter how many you teach there will be a large amount who will take a while to adjust to the new translations. But the more the faithful know about it the better prepared they will be

I know I never said that it was being sprung on people. But there will be people who will be

And I think that people will do just fine with the new liturgy.

.

no you can’t and chant isn’t always the best option, I think in a parish who at first probably can’t handle chant, use hymnal music, not some of the stuff from the Gather, that is bland and boring but stuff that actually shows us a deeper understand of the things that are taking place in the liturgy.

that is great, and here at the seminary the liturgy is amazing, well that is expected from benedictines, but they don’t include much latin in their mass and it is still very beautiful and sacred. Even though all they do is chant.

that may be on the director, because balance in the parts while it helps isn’t always an excuse to not sound good. You can make a unbalance section sound good with the right ears.

if the music is done effectively sure but i don’t think it has to be TLM to have the faithful flock to mass. If the Music is done effective in any setting, the mass is said with love, and said in a way that meets the needs of the people. If you are in a part of the country who don’t flock to the Latin Mass, then trying to get a lot more of that isn’t meeting the needs of the flock, rather it may be meeting the needs of the priest and him alone. A priest is called to minister to his people, and meet them where they are at, not to bring them to his position without meeting them.

So as a priest or someone who may be in charge of the liturgy, his goal is to meet his people where they are and then bring them deeper into their faith.

sorry I’m talking so much from the perspective of a priest but I feel like its the area that I know the most about, and while the lay have (name removed by moderator)ut, priest a lot of times are kinda the last say on many of these issues.

as I said earlier meet the people where they are not the other way around

I think you are correct, but again don’t try to bring more people to the LTM meet people where they are and then when they are ready slowly move them into a more reverent practice of the mass. This is what happened in my life, when I was on fire for my faith I didn’t become right away this amazing reverent man who did all these things that showed reverence to the Mass, no it took me a few years to get to the point where I am now.

I have to go I’ll get back to this later tonight.

my schedule a seminary is pretty full.

Thanks for the thoughtful and pithy comments.

 

[Cat]

Sorry, everyone, I made a mess out of the quote boxes in Post #47 . I was on my way out the door to take our nephew to the skating rink, and just didn’t pay attention. I think it’s a really confusing post, and I apologize for being so careless. Apologies especially to I Thirst, because it makes it hard to tell which is their comments and which are mine.

 

[catholictiger]

Thanks for the thoughtful and pithy comments.

no problem man.

as I said I will try and add a little to the conversation soon, but tuesday and thursdays for me are way to hectic really post on here a lot, so I just post in passing. I also need to watch how long I post, cause I was almost late to communal prayer today . Something that I’m going to have to work on in formation for sure.

 

[The_Rock]

How much wiggle room will there be for the choir directors to mess with the words of the new translation? Our Bishop fully supports it but he inherited a large number of disobedient parishes. If the Priests and the choir directors are not following the rules now, will the new translation cut out this stuff (gender neutral etc.)?

 

[Phemie]

How much wiggle room will there be for the choir directors to mess with the words of the new translation? Our Bishop fully supports it but he inherited a large number of disobedient parishes. If the Priests and the choir directors are not following the rules now, will the new translation cut out this stuff (gender neutral etc.)?

There is no wiggle room but, then, there has never been but that didn’t stop choirs from using what they wanted even if the GIRM said it wasn’t allowed. I mean, how many choirs opted to sing a version of the Gloria that changed the text? That is forbidden but they did it anyway.

 

[FatHead]

There is no wiggle room but, then, there has never been but that didn’t stop choirs from using what they wanted even if the GIRM said it wasn’t allowed. I mean, how many choirs opted to sing a version of the Gloria that changed the text? That is forbidden but they did it anyway.

i know, almost every parish i go to besides my own sing those terrible responsorial glorias… or worse