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Son_of_Niall
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Yeah, I…uh noticed your LinkedIn resume.Third, I have been a litigator 26 years. You are not even close to proper court etiquette
Charity will not allow me to go any further.
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Son_of_Niall
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iepuras
Guest
TK, can you provide proof that it was God the Father and Jesus Christ who appeared to Joseph Smith in the grove of trees by his home? You don’t even have to provide proof of the veracity of the official LDS version. Just provide proof of the veracity of any of the versions of the First Vision.
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lax16
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I don’t think TexanKnight would do that.So are sending anti-Catholic PMs.
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TexanKnight
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First, you are incorrect. This is NOT a debate forum. It is a Forum. The definition of forum is: : a meeting at which a subject can be discussed : a place or opportunity for discussing a subjectBull.
This is a debate forum and you refuse to debate. Other religions provide evidence with no problem and are never banned.
YOU’RE the one who keeps making these cryptic comments about ‘evidence’, and when asked to produce it, you don’t.
Conclusion: You have no such ‘evidence’.
Your Honor, I move this case be dismissed as the prosecution has not proven their case.
So…not debate…discuss.
As to being banned…trust me…it happens if you do anything that the mods believe disparages the Catholic Church.
So, yes…I have evidence. Will I list my evidence? I will ask the mods how much leeway they will give me this time.
Finally, I am not the prosecution…I have not leveled any charges. I have responded to claims against the LDS Church…if anything, I am the Defense. Second, this is not a trial. Third, stop playing attorney, you are not very good at it.
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TexanKnight
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That is beautiful. Something similar happened to me recently. It is always wonderfulSalutations in Christ,
I am rereading the thread. I admire the intensity and care of your initial soliloquy. I’ve never read the BOM, so except for my other comment, I cannot contribute. BUT, I will say this the Holy Spirit speaks to us, if we shut up and listen. But, as I was thinking about my very sick, young nephew, I heard that small, sweet voice come through my soul saying, “THIS ILLNESS WILL NOT LEAD TO DEATH.” It was rough going. There were times, I wondered if I heard Him correctly. Sometimes the enemy presents himself and confuses things to dishonor God.
But, yes, God can speak to you. It is wonderful when He does.
in Christ’s love
Tweedlealice
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Chris-WA
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No I am not a god, and never will be, and neither will you. What I do know is that God, due to His character, does not confirm falsehoods like the BoM. So whatever you felt is not from God. It is a self-fulfilling, self-actualizing feeling of something you want to be true and have been conditioned to feel. But neither your feelings or my feelings or anybody else’s feelings determine truth.
I am using reason, you are using emotion. As a lawyer I’m sure you know the difference when making an argument. I don’t know what you felt, and I don’t really care. As I’ve said many times already, making a judgment based on feelings is a terrible way to decide if something is true or not. For example, in his book Palmer talks about several instances where many people felt the spirit when prominent LDS speakers spoke to a group about their life experiences. In his examples, he cited how those experience were proven later to be fabricated, yet people had felt the spirit. So reaching a conclusion about a specific matter based on such religious feelings is a dangerous path. And as I’ve said before, reason demands we understand that religious people of very different faiths both get the same types of feelings about their religion, yet both cannot be true at the same time. Yes, the Holy Spirit can give us promptings and good feelings in a certain setting or time, but using those feelings to determine specific truths is not the way to go. And any religion which uses this method as the ultimate way to decide truth, as the LDS church does, is leading its members down the wrong path.
There you go with your feelings again.
That’s a very typical tactic for a Mormon to use–automatically dismiss someone because they were excommunicated. Maybe Palmer wasn’t the problem. Maybe he pointed out truths the LDS church didn’t want to hear, and they wanted to silence him like they’ve done with so many others. Yet many of the things Palmer points out are now admitted to by the church in their new essays. They owe Palmer and others before him a huge apology.
All Mormons know how the LDS church discourages its members from reading material about the church from anything outside official church sources. They call it “anti-Mormon.” It’s a way to keep the people from looking. They are afraid of information being exposed and what that will do to the testimonies of its members. As a Catholic I have never been told that I shouldn’t read something about the church written outside of official church channels. The truthfulness of any religion should be able to withstand outside criticism. A church which tells its members to “don’t look there” is acting more like a cult.
As far as proof goes…here is a link to a thread I started last year on this very subject. There you will find plenty of factual evidence that the BoM is a fraud. And this is just a tiny fraction of it:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=959147
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TexanKnight
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No need for the attacks. I have been coherent. But, as Christ says, there are those who will not hear.I’d love to see you express something coherent. Seriously.
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lax16
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Are you seriously saying it is the CATHOLICS that won’t hear?
You need to reread Mormon history!
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TexanKnight
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Let’s discuss real foundational issues such as “who started your church?”. There can be nothing wrong with the foundation of the Catholic Church because it was founded by Jesus Christ. Popes are not founders.
God founded the World…it did not work…He had the flood and started over…it happens.
Joseph Smith is the founder of Mormonism. Is that a solid foundation?
That is like saying Peter started the Catholic Church. Catholics believe Jesus gave Peter the keys. Mormons believe Jesus gave Joseph the keys after the Catholic Church lost its way. Jesus had to start over like God once had to.
The Mormon church is losing numbers. The Catholic Church is growing. Yes, many Catholics are not practicing their faith, but once again that’s where free will pops up again.
Is the Catholic Church growing? Perhaps. But Church attendance in the Catholic Church has shrunk from 47% to 24% and only 12% attend Sunday Mass. Parishes have closed all over the USA. In 1988, there were over 19k parishes. now there are only a little over 17k parishes.
pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/11/06/the-number-of-u-s-catholics-has-grown-so-why-are-there-fewer-parishes/
As to the LDS Church…I have seen articles saying the numbers are growing worldwide…articles saying the numbers are flat. Do shrinking numbers in either Church mean the Church is false? Is that what you are trying to say?
Isn’t that what the Mormon church is all about - setting itself apart from all other religions? In other words, throwing stones.
So, setting apart throws stones? The Pope said only the Catholic is THE true Church. That is a pretty big stone. However, I do not believe proclaiming truth is throwing stones by either Church.
JS was the biggest stone thrower of them all. The missionaries going door to door are stone throwers. My next door neighbors are stone throwers. Catholics aren’t going to sit back any more and listen to the lies.
Really? The Inquisition comes to mind
By correcting these lies we are not throwing stones. We are defending the truth of the Catholic Church because it is Christ’s church. We are defending the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Calling them lies IS throwing stones. I could respond by saying what YOU say is a lie. I won’t. I will not throw the stone back at you that you threw at me.
No, he walked around preaching, performing miracles, choosing apostles, gaining followers and starting a church. According to you, it didn’t last. According to JS, even Jesus couldn’t keep a church together.
Look at the conduct of the Catholic Church in the middle ages and tell me Christ was leading it. Look at the things that drove Luther out…look at all of it…and tell me I do not have at least SOME reason the Church had lost its way…
That, my friend, is the biggest stone ever thrown!! Mormons cannot live it down because THAT is the foundation of your church!! Jesus’ Church didn’t last. The Holy Spirit didn’t protect His church. God sent his Son to die and fulfill prophecy only to have it all fade away with the death of the last apostle.
Is it a stone to say what God created did not totally last and a restart was needed? No. It is not a stone. it is the truth as I believe it.
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TexanKnight
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So we need to provide proof of Heavenly Visitations?
Hmmm…you want to enforce that same standard on Biblical Visions and Catholics visions, let me know and we can go down that path…
Stephen168
New member
Yes, answers based on YOUR feelings would not be considered a rational answer based on objective facts.
We do know now that the Book of Mormon is not what Joseph Smith claimed it to be, so that casts doubt on Joseph Smith as well.
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Son_of_Niall
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Someone started a thread on this ‘great apostasy’, now’s your chance.First, you are incorrect. This is NOT a debate forum. It is a Forum. The definition of forum is: : a meeting at which a subject can be discussed : a place or opportunity for discussing a subject
So…not debate…discuss.
As to being banned…trust me…it happens if you do anything that the mods believe disparages the Catholic Church.
So, yes…I have evidence. Will I list my evidence? I will ask the mods how much leeway they will give me this time.
Finally, I am not the prosecution…I have not leveled any charges. I have responded to claims against the LDS Church…if anything, I am the Defense. Second, this is not a trial. Third, stop playing attorney, you are not very good at it.
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TexanKnight
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Ah…so Catholics have no feelings and/or do not rely on feelings? Interesting. When I was Catholic and told my of “feeling” conversion, Catholics were happy and impressed.
Very odd.
And no…“we” do not know The Book of Mormon is not what is says it is. YOU think that.
Please do not presume things about me. I am not a flighty kid or an idiot.
Miracles are not feelings. And Answers from God are Answers from God
Stephen168
New member
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TexanKnight
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yes…shedding light and being convincing are two different things…especially in light of later comments made by Palmer
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TexanKnight
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by the way…if you are gonna continue, please provide the dates I said these things…I enjoy the trips down memory lane.
Stephen168
New member
We were NEVER impressed by feelings. We might have been impressed by the following:
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Son_of_Niall
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Ok TK, you said:
What was conduct?
Why was Christ not leading it?
And if He wasn’t, who was He leading?
Please try to answer with less than the seven basic ballet movements
Let’s start here.
What was conduct?
Why was Christ not leading it?
And if He wasn’t, who was He leading?
Please try to answer with less than the seven basic ballet movements
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