Question for LDS folks.

[RebeccaJ]

Yes…Gary Gilmore.

Chose firing squad over hanging because he needed his blood spilled due to the Mormon Blood Oath

In fairness, Gilmore was raised in a very dysfunctional home. Ironically for here, his father was Catholic and his mother was Mormon. I’ve never read anything that indicates he had any religious training. His idea of “blood atonement” was most likely based on what he heard about Mormonism, but who knows what he understood about it (or not). He received last rites from a Catholic priest before his execution, so maybe he was just hoping to get all the bases covered.

In a Catholic understanding, the Mormon idea of one atoning for the sin of murder, via having one’s own blood spilled on the ground, doesn’t fit at all.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Miriam you should know better then to post such a false assumption. Of course salvation is through Jesus Christ. None of these quotes say otherwise. Rather they are simply stating what would appear to me to be an obvious point. If the LDS church is true then you and everyone else who will be saved must accept it (just as you might tell me I must accept the Catholic church). And to accept the LDS church you must accept Joseph Smith as a prophet. Isn’t this obvious? Do we believe in receiving salvation without Christ? Of course not! It is these kinds of comments that create misunderstanding and confusion.

Janderich,

The problem is that in Mormonism, salvation in not accomplished only through your christ; but through “him who is anointed.” Mormon Scripture identifies the “anointed” as Joseph Smith. In addition, one must be sealed in marriage, prior to death, in order to obtain exaltation.

Doctrine and Covenants Section 132
**7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.
**

---

**Continued–Doctrine and Covenants Section 132 **

#15-20 says that unless sealed in marriage before death, one cannot obtain exaltation and become gods; but will instead be “appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.”

**#54 **god says, if Emma Smith does not “abide and cleave” to Joseph and to none else; she will be destroyed.

#61 god gives permission for man to have more than one wife.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

I think it is really interesting to research Mormonism.

I love my CAF family too!

lax16,

I agree with both.

At the same time, my heart is heavy for the LDS forum members.

Anna

 

[TexanKnight]

In fairness, Gilmore was raised in a very dysfunctional home. Ironically for here, his father was Catholic and his mother was Mormon. I’ve never read anything that indicates he had any religious training. His idea of “blood atonement” was most likely based on what he heard about Mormonism, but who knows what he understood about it (or not). He received last rites from a Catholic priest before his execution, so maybe he was just hoping to get all the bases covered.

In a Catholic understanding, the Mormon idea of one atoning for the sin of murder, via having one’s own blood spilled on the ground, doesn’t fit at all.

I read an interview years ago where he said he chose firing squad due to the LDS Blood oath. He coulda been lying. But, even if he was, it STILL speaks to the LDS blood oath

 

[kimg901]

I have a proposition for our lds posters. Can 1 of you get your local bishop to come on here and explain to us what you guys really believe and are taught? They must have a vast knowledge about mormon teachings. It would be interesting.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I have a proposition for our lds posters. Can 1 of you get your local bishop to come on here and explain to us what you guys really believe and are taught? They must have a vast knowledge about mormon teachings. It would be interesting.

There may already be Mormon bishops on the forums.

 

[kimg901]

There may already be Mormon bishops on the forums.

You really think so? If they are here and posting, they are poor apologists IMO and dont know their own doctrines

 

[pablope]

I have a proposition for our lds posters. Can 1 of you get your local bishop to come on here and explain to us what you guys really believe and are taught? They must have a vast knowledge about mormon teachings. It would be interesting.

A mormon bishop, I have been informed, is not the same in concept as a catholic bishop.

A mormon bishop is like a deacon or parish priest.

 

[kimg901]

A mormon bishop, I have been informed, is not the same in concept as a catholic bishop.

A mormon bishop is like a deacon or parish priest.

They have no formal training ive been told.

 

[twopekinguys]

but he never gave a sermon that was not Scripture…

how horribly confusing…

Which brings up an interesting point.

At Conference in 2010, Boyd Packer (president of the 12) made some really nasty comments during his speech.

He was allowed to “amend” the written record of it after is was delivered. The altered speech is what is in “mormon history”. Not what he actually said.

In 10 or 15 yrs, there is going to be a huge fight between those that saw it, and heard it, and those that read it. Of course any videos produced of it will be called “fakes”.

Read about it here

They immediately went into damage control on this one. (and how many others)

 

[TexanKnight]

A mormon bishop, I have been informed, is not the same in concept as a catholic bishop.

A mormon bishop is like a deacon or parish priest.

No.

A Mormon Bishop is like a lector.

A Cathlic Deacon must have training. A Mormon Bishop does not.

 

[TexanKnight]

ok…so here it is…

BY in a sermon said Adam was our God.

BY in a sermon called for blood oath.

Janderich says that BY was not speaking as a prophet

BY said that his sermons are scripture.

Who do we believe? Janderich or BY?

Bigger issue…is Janderich’s rejection of his prophet mean he is rejecting the LDS faith, or is he saying it is ok to reject the prophets you dislike?

 

[Porknpie]

ok…so here it is…

BY in a sermon said Adam was our God.

BY in a sermon called for blood oath.

Janderich says that BY was not speaking as a prophet

BY said that his sermons are scripture.

Who do we believe? Janderich or BY?

Bigger issue…is Janderich’s rejection of his prophet mean he is rejecting the LDS faith, or is he saying it is ok to reject the prophets you dislike?/QUOTE

Tex,

Dumb question I know…help us understand what is meant by blood oath…ty

 

[TexanKnight]

TexanKnight;10351534:

ok…so here it is…

BY in a sermon said Adam was our God.

BY in a sermon called for blood oath.

Janderich says that BY was not speaking as a prophet

BY said that his sermons are scripture.

Who do we believe? Janderich or BY?

Bigger issue…is Janderich’s rejection of his prophet mean he is rejecting the LDS faith, or is he saying it is ok to reject the prophets you dislike?

Blood oath was BY’s doctrine that said that some sins needed blood spilled to be forgiven.

If a Saint committed an unpardonable sin, Young asked early in 1857, “Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood?” He knew hundreds of people who could have been saved “if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels to the devil.” If a man wanted salvation and it was “necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he might be saved, spill it … That is the way to love mankind.” It was strong doctrine to cut “people off from the earth,” he conceded, “but it is to save them, not to destroy them.” Sinners should welcome blood atonement and “beg of their brethren to shed their blood.”[6]

Young’s private statements exceeded even the violent language of his public sermons. “I want their cursed heads cut off that they may atone for their sins,” he told the Council of Fifty in March 1849.[7] His interpretation of blood atonement evoked the Saints’ vision of themselves as an Old Testament people, an identification so strong that the plans for the Salt Lake temple included an altar “to Offer Sacrifices.”[8] The gory details of blood atonement shock modern observers, but the common experience of butchering animals made them less repellent to a farming people.

The Saints had a “right to kill a sinner to save him, when he commits those crimes that can only be atoned for by shedding his blood,” Jedediah Grant insisted. At the beginning of the Reformation, Grant advised sinners to ask Brigham Young “to appoint a committee to attend to their case; and then let a place be selected, and let that committee shed their blood. We have those amongst us that are full of all manner of abominations, those who need to have their blood shed, for water will not do, their sins are of too deep a dye.”[9]

 

[kimg901]

My god-daughter was telling me a little about the blood oath. And doesnt have to do that if you devulged secret info that you would have to kill yourself too and that was part of the blood oath?

 

[Miriam1947]

The real conundrum this puts LDS in, is, Young and his Mormon followers of the time did not view his teachings as opinion. They believed him, and acted in ways that showed their belief. “Earth must atone for the blood of that man” in the hymn “Praise to the Man”. Mountain Meadows Massacre, was a whole Mormon community acting on the premise that someone’s blood should atone for Smith’s blood.

Now, Mormons and their leaders say, “Eh, it was all just one man’s opinion.” Which, appears to me, to be just another opinion.

But LDS members don’t think on which opinion is correct, they just go with the latest opinion and call it good.

I go with, they are both false. Just one opinion overlaying another, based on societal norms and what people will find acceptable for the day.

RebeccaJ, ohhh. I have heard the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sing “Praise to the Man” and it does stick in the mind.

I believe it is an old Scottish tune but with their words.

 

[Miriam1947]

Yes…Gary Gilmore.

Chose firing squad over hanging because he needed his blood spilled due to the Mormon Blood Oath

There was a murder in Idaho and the murderer was a lapsed Mormon. There was a bit of controversy over his confession because the police officers were Mormon as well and it was said that they brought up the blood atonement in order to get his confession.

 

[SteveVH]

I have a proposition for our lds posters. Can 1 of you get your local bishop to come on here and explain to us what you guys really believe and are taught? They must have a vast knowledge about mormon teachings. It would be interesting.

Mormon bishops, at least in my experience, don’t have much knowledge at all and make terrible apologists. I would say the Mormon posters here on CAF have much more knowledge then your average Mormon bishop.

 

[lax16]

lax16,

I agree with both.

At the same time, my heart is heavy for the LDS forum members.

Anna

Yes, Anna, good point.

 

[eddie_too]

mormon theology is rife with contradictions, both logical and literal contradictiory statements made by mormon leaders from various generations. some of them are so absurd that they a little amusting.

for example, it is almost humorous that they believe there was a “Great Apostasy” that occurred in our Lord’s Church within the first three hundred years of its existence and yet NO ONE knew it had happened for another 1,500 years.

at the least the mormons could call it the “Great SECRET Apostasy”.

seriously, a person is supposed to believe that the body of believers abandoned the faith they had received from the Lord and they did not even know they were abandoning it??

another example of abandoning the use of reason is the idea that their god, limited as they believe him to be, actually wanted to re-establish a church that had failed in his first attempt to establish it. they are quite insistent that it is the same church established by Jesus. yet, they try to resolve the irrationality of re-establishing a failed instittution by saying the first attempt did not fail. they want it both ways. it failed and needed to be re-established. yet, it is the true church and could not fail.

it is as absurd as believing the Bible teaches us that there are many gods and none of the gods created the universe. or that the universe had no beginning.

like i said, mormon theology is rife with contradictions. a preson must absolutely give up applying reason to religion to be a believeing mormon.

we are right to oppose mormonism whenever we encounter it. i suggest we do so in a spirit of christian charity. it might help if we remind ourselves that although most who are members of the mormon faith are totally immersed in ignorance of history and theology, their faith is sincere. in other words most are not hypocrites. do not allow the experience of encountering a low level of intellectual content cause us to respond in a manner that will make mormon believers even more obstinate because they see us as persecutors rather than possessors of the true faith sincerely interested in their salvation.

we cannot allow falsehoods and misperceptions to go unchallenged when we encounter them, but we need not respond emotionally nor agressively. we possess the truth and part of that truth is that by virtue of our Baptisms we are possessors of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. these fruits include patience, benignity (or kindness), and mildness.

as we all know, we only till the soil, almighty God plants the seed and His Church tends to it and helps it grow. faith is and will always be a divine gift.