Question for LDS folks.

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eddie_too said:
mormon theology is rife with contradictions, both logical and literal contradictiory statements made by mormon leaders from various generations. some of them are so absurd that they a little amusting.

for example, it is almost humorous that they believe there was a “Great Apostasy” that occurred in our Lord’s Church within the first three hundred years of its existence and yet NO ONE knew it had happened for another 1,500 years.

at the least the mormons could call it the “Great SECRET Apostasy”.

seriously, a person is supposed to believe that the body of believers abandoned the faith they had received from the Lord and they did not even know they were abandoning it??

another example of abandoning the use of reason is the idea that their god, limited as they believe him to be, actually wanted to re-establish a church that had failed in his first attempt to establish it. they are quite insistent that it is the same church established by Jesus. yet, they try to resolve the irrationality of re-establishing a failed instittution by saying the first attempt did not fail. they want it both ways. it failed and needed to be re-established. yet, it is the true church and could not fail.

it is as absurd as believing the Bible teaches us that there are many gods and none of the gods created the universe. or that the universe had no beginning.

like i said, mormon theology is rife with contradictions. a preson must absolutely give up applying reason to religion to be a believeing mormon.

we are right to oppose mormonism whenever we encounter it. i suggest we do so in a spirit of christian charity. it might help if we remind ourselves that although most who are members of the mormon faith are totally immersed in ignorance of history and theology, their faith is sincere. in other words most are not hypocrites. do not allow the experience of encountering a low level of intellectual content cause us to respond in a manner that will make mormon believers even more obstinate because they see us as persecutors rather than possessors of the true faith sincerely interested in their salvation.

we cannot allow falsehoods and misperceptions to go unchallenged when we encounter them, but we need not respond emotionally nor agressively. we possess the truth and part of that truth is that by virtue of our Baptisms we are possessors of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. these fruits include patience, benignity (or kindness), and mildness.

as we all know, we only till the soil, almighty God plants the seed and His Church tends to it and helps it grow. faith is and will always be a divine gift.
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Great post, Eddie.
 
eddie_too said:
. . .we are right to oppose mormonism whenever we encounter it. i suggest we do so in a spirit of christian charity. it might help if we remind ourselves that although most who are members of the mormon faith are totally immersed in ignorance of history and theology, their faith is sincere. in other words most are not hypocrites. do not allow the experience of encountering a low level of intellectual content cause us to respond in a manner that will make mormon believers even more obstinate because they see us as persecutors rather than possessors of the true faith sincerely interested in their salvation. . . .
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Eddie,
Wonderful post and a reminder to us all. 🙂

Anna
 
eddie_too said:
another example of abandoning the use of reason is the idea that their god, limited as they believe him to be, actually wanted to re-establish a church that had failed in his first attempt to establish it. they are quite insistent that it is the same church established by Jesus. yet, they try to resolve the irrationality of re-establishing a failed instittution by saying the first attempt did not fail. they want it both ways. it failed and needed to be re-established. yet, it is the true church and could not fail.
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I heard an interesting argument for the reason why mormons are okay with the “true” church being unable to successfully plant it’s roots into humanity after Christ came and resurrected.

The image I was told to think of was a parent spoon feeding an infant. The child would reject the spoon so the parent would pull away for a bit then once again bring the spoon to the child’s mouth. This would repeat until the child is ready to eat from the spoon.

Like the infant, we apparently weren’t ready to accept the good news in Jesus’ time. So being the loving parent he is, God decided to pull back and wait for an opportunity to try to give us the true gospel.

Conveniently it was in the time of JS that we were good n ready to eat from that spoon:shrug:

I asked the person who told me this how they knew that THIS was the ear we were ready to recieve the good news and it wasn’t actually when Jesus came (I also would like to extend this question to our mormon visitors if they have heard of the analogy or would just like to answer) but all the guy could tell me was that BY or some other early prophet said that God gave them revelation that JS’s time was the last time God needed to extend that spoon to us because we ate the food properly…in other words, we were ready to recieve the gospel then and God no longer needed to intervene in that way.

Also, with this idea in mind, apostasy was normal up until that point and everyone knew about it thanks to warnings from the apostles.
 
PuerCuriosus said:
I heard an interesting argument for the reason why mormons are okay with the “true” church being unable to successfully plant it’s roots into humanity after Christ came and resurrected.

The image I was told to think of was a parent spoon feeding an infant. The child would reject the spoon so the parent would pull away for a bit then once again bring the spoon to the child’s mouth. This would repeat until the child is ready to eat from the spoon.

Like the infant, we apparently weren’t ready to accept the good news in Jesus’ time. So being the loving parent he is, God decided to pull back and wait for an opportunity to try to give us the true gospel.

Conveniently it was in the time of JS that we were good n ready to eat from that spoon:shrug:

I asked the person who told me this how they knew that THIS was the ear we were ready to recieve the good news and it wasn’t actually when Jesus came (I also would like to extend this question to our mormon visitors if they have heard of the analogy or would just like to answer) but all the guy could tell me was that BY or some other early prophet said that God gave them revelation that JS’s time was the last time God needed to extend that spoon to us because we ate the food properly…in other words, we were ready to recieve the gospel then and God no longer needed to intervene in that way.

Also, with this idea in mind, apostasy was normal up until that point and everyone knew about it thanks to warnings from the apostles.
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PC -
People weren’t ready for the message but were being baptized by the thousands - how can that possibly make any sense?

Of course the apostles were telling people to turn away from sin and to turn to God - why does that imply an impending apostasy?

The Mormons believe the apostasy happened to allow for their prophet JS to receive the truth. It is hard to believe that God couldn’t get it right the first time.

Thanks for sharing the analogy. I haven’t heard this one before.
 
puer curiosus,

thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. allow me to analyze your mormon contact’s response. as you recounted the mormon response,

"I heard an interesting argument for the reason why mormons are okay with the “true” church being unable to successfully plant it’s roots into humanity after Christ came and resurrected.

The image I was told to think of was a parent spoon feeding an infant. The child would reject the spoon so the parent would pull away for a bit then once again bring the spoon to the child’s mouth. This would repeat until the child is ready to eat from the spoon.

Like the infant, we apparently weren’t ready to accept the good news in Jesus’ time. So being the loving parent he is, God decided to pull back and wait for an opportunity to try to give us the true gospel."

my response,

aside from encouraging mormons to apply “occams razor” in determining the likelihood of such an analysis being correct which suggestion i suspect they would find incomprehensible, there are other rejoinders.

for instance, how pathetic is a god that tries to force feed people who are clearly not able to eat the food being offered? to continue the mormon’s analogy, what kind of parent would try to feed a newly born infant prime rib? such a response as the mormon gave to you merely emphasizes the need for a person to abandon the use of reason in order to accept the teachings of the LDS. i realize your informant spoke in sincerity, but seriously, how does a person not see the inherent absurdity in suggesting others believe in a god who would attempt such foolishness.

for what possible reason would god give the Good News to people who were incapable of benefiting from the Good News? the only explanation i can see for such foolishness would be the ignorance of the god. the mormon god seems to be the “god of ignorance and futility”.

the mormon’s analogy rather than making the teaching reasonable just multiplies its illogic. that is the way i see it.
 
TexanKnight said:
Too much evidence is being presented against them and the questions are too difficult to answer with coherent and believable responses
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I think Brigham Young and his sermons are very difficult to explain.

I can’t help but wonder why anyone would name a university after someone that is unable to be taken at his word and by quoting him causes such strife? 🤷
 
lax16 said:
I think Brigham Young and his sermons are very difficult to explain.

I can’t help but wonder why anyone would name a university after someone that is unable to be taken at his word and by quoting him causes such strife? 🤷
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As you have read here, the mormon posters (and I would guess 90% of mormons) pick and choose what to believe when it benefits them and their church (cherrys anyone?) They also love to give us the good ole “1 liners” from Scripture. Its very sad that they have been so brain washed into believing a man rather than Christ 😦
 
Kmg…agree…again, my lack of comprehension on their way of thinking and I can only attribute it to those who were born into it.
 
KathleenGee said:
Kmg…agree…again, my lack of comprehension on their way of thinking and I can only attribute it to those who were born into it.
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I myself was never born into it but for a brief time was baptised a mormon until some friends told me to research what was/is really taught by their church. Ive also lived in Utah for 21 years now and have seen and heard things from ex mormons and why they left too.
 
Thanks for the personal info, kmg…

My husband was offered a transfer to SLC, but right away, knowing some of their beliefs, etc., I advised him not to go. My daughters were very pretty, and my dad told them to wear crucifixes if we move there.

I called a priest in this town we thought ‘beautiful’, and was told definitely the Mormons would go after my daughters, especially they being Catholic.

Heard it happened to a Lutheran lady living not too far from me, her 16 year old beginning to date a Mormon boy, and Mormon boys are 'real squires; of gentile girls. They decided and moved out of state, --asap!

We would have lived up near the university where there is some diversity and go to Cathedral. When we got home, my son’s first grade teacher told us not to live there, she grew up there in SLC, and said the Mormons would be coming to our door constantly. Again she said so strongly, please do not move there.

My kids got top marks for their state projects, Utah being a geological wonder. Fascinating state and we visited the Donnor Trail a number of times. I am in an interracial marriage, and it was sad seeing such young couples look at me and my family with disapproval. It would not have been good for us.
 
KathleenGee said:
Thanks for the personal info, kmg…

My husband was offered a transfer to SLC, but right away, knowing some of their beliefs, etc., I advised him not to go. My daughters were very pretty, and my dad told them to wear crucifixes if we move there.

I called a priest in this town we thought ‘beautiful’, and was told definitely the Mormons would go after my daughters, especially they being Catholic.

Heard it happened to a Lutheran lady living not too far from me, her 16 year old beginning to date a Mormon boy, and Mormon boys are 'real squires; of gentile girls. They decided and moved out of state, --asap!

We would have lived up near the university where there is some diversity and go to Cathedral. When we got home, my son’s first grade teacher told us not to live there, she grew up there in SLC, and said the Mormons would be coming to our door constantly. Again she said so strongly, please do not move there.

My kids got top marks for their state projects, Utah being a geological wonder. Fascinating state and we visited the Donnor Trail a number of times. I am in an interracial marriage, and it was sad seeing such young couples look at me and my family with disapproval. It would not have been good for us.
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I am also of an inter-racial marriage and the looks we get, wow. Alot of my wifes family are mormon and my wife converting to catholism and being married to me (latin) didnt go over to well. But they learned to love me after I let them know they cant run my life!
 
Anna_Scott said:
. . .I think many Mormons are unfamiliar with the Journal of Discourses. I noticed on lds.org; Mormons are encouraged to concentrate on other things; and if they do read the JD, they are told "to avoid getting caught up in their uniqueness."

lds.org: I’ve been reading the Journal of Discourses with a great deal of interest and pleasure, but I notice that they are not printed by the Church. Can you tell me how authoritative I should consider them to be? Gerald E. Jones, director, LDS Institute of Religion, Berkeley, California**
**. . .We also should be aware of priorities in our studies. It seems to me that we should first become very familiar with the four books of Scripture accepted as standard works. The words of our current living prophet are also most valuable for us in our time. The official statements of the First Presidency are standards for doctrine and practice in the Church. We should be familiar with the manuals and courses of study provided for us in our day. . . .
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As quoted above, the Mormon church is discouraging the reading of the Journal of Discourses and encouraging their people to concentrate on other things, such as their Scripture.

fairmormon.org addresses Mormonism and doctrine/Statements by past prophets

Fair Mormon quotes from Commentary — 4 May 2007 Approaching Mormon Doctrine which explains the sources of Mormon doctrine, and how, with “divine inspiration,” the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles “counsel together” to establish doctrine.

Fair Mormon also responds to critics who refer to a statement by Brigham Young that he “never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture,” pointing out that Young also said to let him have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and then it is as good Scripture; and “when they are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible.”

Fair Mormon cites sources:
%between%[p. 95b] http://scriptures.byu.edu/jod/pdf.png](http://scriptures.byu.edu/jod/pdf/JoD13/JoD13_0095.pdf)scriptures.byu.edu/jod/hbll.png Journal of Discourses

%between%[p. 264a] http://scriptures.byu.edu/jod/pdf.png](http://scriptures.byu.edu/jod/pdf/JoD13/JoD13_0264.pdf)scriptures.byu.edu/jod/hbll.png Journal of Discourses

The irony in this particular Mormon response to critics, is that they use the Journal of Discourses as the source for Brigham Young’s words. This is, of course, the same Journal of Discourses they encourage their people not to read. It is the same Journal of Discourses in which Brigham Young proclaimed that Adam is Michael the Archangel, Ancient of Days, and God. Young said he could not find any man on the earth who could tell him this, until he met and talked with Joseph Smith.

April 9, 1852, Mormon Prophet, Brigham Young: "Journal of Discourses Volume 1:50-51 "Self-Government—Mysteries—Recreation and Amusements, Not in Themselves Sinful—Tithing—Adam, Our Father and Our God.
A Sermon by President Brigham Young, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, April 9, 1852 Reported By: G. D. Watt."

Note the title of the above sermon includes “Adam, Our Father and Our God.”

Today, the LDS claim this was never a doctrine of the Mormon Church; but how could the LDS of that time not believe what Brigham Young taught–not believe that Adam is god? Young was their prophet. Did he lie when he said he could not find any man on the earth who could tell him this, until he met and talked with Joseph Smith? Did he make up the doctrine? Was the title and content of his sermon misquoted? It seems unlikely that Young was misquoted, since he was still teaching the same doctrine nearly 21 years later. **(June 8, 1873, President Brigham Young, Delivered in the new Tabernacle, Salt Lake City. )

**In trying to find the answers to these questions, I found **Brigham Young’s Teachings on Adam, Matthew B. Brown, Delivered at the 2009 FAIR Conference, Sandy, Utah
**
It is an interesting read and at least attempts to answer the Adam/god issue. It contains quite a bit of theological gymnastics; but is worth the read. It gives an insight into Mormon thought today, regarding exaltation/becoming gods and ruling over earth; and how that relates to the teachings of Brigham Young…

Anna
 
lax16 said:
PC -
People weren’t ready for the message but were being baptized by the thousands - how can that possibly make any sense?

Of course the apostles were telling people to turn away from sin and to turn to God - why does that imply an impending apostasy?

The Mormons believe the apostasy happened to allow for their prophet JS to receive the truth. It is hard to believe that God couldn’t get it right the first time.

Thanks for sharing the analogy. I haven’t heard this one before.
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Yeah it was full of troubling implications for me as well. The only response that was at least somewhat reasonable that i could think of but at the same time consistent with their theology was that “God” purpsosely offered us the gospel so many times because he knew that each time it was offered our hearts became just that much more compliant to his will.

But this is only so feasibly consistent if you don’t study the Old testament. There’s no way Christ would fail after about 2000 years of prophecies foretold of His coming to save us. It goes back to the ol’ JS did more for the church than Christ did argument… which no sane Christian would ever claim.

Sadly enough this conversation did not go over well since I was so offended from having been just told that Mary and ‘god’ had conjugal relations for Jesus to be born :eek:

I just about flipped my lid yelling at the poor boy, which didn’t make anyone happy or better off. Brain washing can be a terrifying thing my friends. 😦

"For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge"
-Romans 10:2
 
eddie_too said:
my response,

aside from encouraging mormons to apply “occams razor” in determining the likelihood of such an analysis being correct which suggestion i suspect they would find incomprehensible, there are other rejoinders.

for instance, how pathetic is a god that tries to force feed people who are clearly not able to eat the food being offered? to continue the mormon’s analogy, what kind of parent would try to feed a newly born infant prime rib? such a response as the mormon gave to you merely emphasizes the need for a person to abandon the use of reason in order to accept the teachings of the LDS. i realize your informant spoke in sincerity, but seriously, how does a person not see the inherent absurdity in suggesting others believe in a god who would attempt such foolishness.
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You’re completely right. I can’t believe in such a God. It’s too difficult to simply put my Lord and Savior and Creator into the quaint image of a messy parent. But more than feeling anger and frustration (which always comes in hot and fiery at first) I feel an overwhelming sense of sadness at the division of churches.

I’ve had many discussions about religion with Mormons and it gets nowhere but a screaming match or an uncomfortable “well there’s no way either can know who’s right until we die”😦 that’s not good enough for me, especially when it comes to the people I love. Blehhhh, I weep for the disunity of those who love Christ.
 
Mormons are taught to ignore history…especially that history that proves the LDS Church is false.

Apostle Dalin H. Oaks once stated

“Our individual, personal testimonies are based on the witness of the Spirit, not on any combination or accumulation of historical facts. If we are so grounded, no alteration of historical facts can shake our testimonies.” (“1985 CES Doctrine and Covenants Symposium,” Brigham Young University, Aug. 16, 1985, page 26)

Alteration of facts? really? He made this statement during the Salamander Letter scandal when the LDS prophet was fooled by Mark Hoffman. They thought the Salamander letter was real and accurate. So, the even came up with stuff to explain that Salamander meant “spirit” and THAT was what Joseph was talking about. When it came out that the Salamander letter was a hoax, they looked pretty silly.
 
kmg…so you still get the looks at this time?

I thought they were updating their beliefs so as not to appear racist. Hardly any blacks were going to vote for a Mormon president…I did vote for Romney and consider him a very good man.

Again, wonder if those young adults are in this belief system through family history.

Automatic saints…and they are prejudice.
 
KathleenGee said:
kmg…so you still get the looks at this time?

I thought they were updating their beliefs so as not to appear racist. Hardly any blacks were going to vote for a Mormon president…I did vote for Romney and consider him a very good man.

Again, wonder if those young adults are in this belief system through family history.

Automatic saints…and they are prejudice.
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Sadly Kat, yes. We still get looks but it depends on where we are at in Utah 😦
 
kimg901 said:
I am also of an inter-racial marriage and the looks we get, wow. Alot of my wifes family are mormon and my wife converting to catholism and being married to me (latin) didnt go over to well. But they learned to love me after I let them know they cant run my life!
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Kimg,

I love Italians

😃
 
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