Question for Lutherans

[steve_b]

You don’t have “buy” into it. This is not a matter of consultation with the laity. The decision is that of the Holy See.

From Vatican Radio:

*(Vatican Radio) Pope Francis will travel to Sweden in October for a joint ecumenical commemoration of the start of the Reformation, together with leaders of the Lutheran World Federation and representatives of other Christian Churches.

The event will take place on October 31st in the southern Swedish city of Lund where the Lutheran World Federation was founded in 1947.** While kicking off a year of events to mark the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation***, it will also highlight the important ecumenical developments that have taken place during the past 50 years of dialogue between Catholics and Lutherans.

The one-day event will include a common worship service in Lund cathedral based on a Catholic-Lutheran “Common Prayer” liturgical guide, published earlier this month by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (PCPCU) and the Lutheran World Federation (LWF).

The commemoration in Lund follows on directly from the publication in 2013 of a joint document entitled ‘From Conflict to Communion’, which focuses on the themes of thanksgiving, repentance and commitment to common witness. While asking for forgiveness for the divisions of past centuries, it also seeks to showcase the gifts of the Reformation and celebrate the way Catholics and Lutherans around the world work together on issues of common concern.

Please see below the joint press release from the LWF and the PCPCU on the joint ecumenical commemoration of the Reformation in Lund

Pope Francis, LWF President Bishop Younan and General Secretary Junge to lead October event

GENEVA/VATICAN CITY, 25 January 2016 - The Lutheran World Federation (LWF) and the Catholic Church will hold a joint ecumenical commemoration of the Reformation on 31 October 2016 in Lund, Sweden.

Pope Francis, LWF President Bishop Dr Munib A. Younan and General Secretary Rev. Dr Martin Junge will lead the Ecumenical Commemoration in cooperation with the Church of Sweden and the Catholic Diocese of Stockholm.

I brought up Rev Junge in my post #171
he was quoted twice in the following link I gave. reuters.com/article/us-re…90L0HQ20130122

*
[snip for space]

“It is with joy and expectation that the Church of Sweden welcomes The Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church to hold the joint commemoration of the Reformation in Lund,” says Church of Sweden Archbishop Antje Jackelén. “We shall pray together with the entire ecumenical family in Sweden that the commemoration will contribute to Christian unity in our country and throughout the world.”

“The ecumenical situation in our part of the world is unique and interesting. I hope that this meeting will help us look to the future so that we can be witnesses of Jesus Christ and His gospel in our secularized world,” says Anders Arborelius OCD, Bishop of the Catholic Church in Sweden.

The Lund event is part of the reception process of the study document From Conflict to Communion, which was published in 2013, and has since been widely distributed to Lutheran and Catholic communities. The document is the first attempt by both dialogue partners to describe together at international level the history of the Reformation and its intentions.

Earlier this year, the LWF and PCPCU sent to LWF member churches and Catholic Bishops’ Conferences a jointly prepared “Common Prayer”, which is a liturgical guide to help churches commemorate the Reformation anniversary together. It is based on the study document From Conflict to Communion: Lutheran-Catholic Common Commemoration of the Reformation in 2017, and features the themes of thanksgiving, repentance and commitment to common witness with the aim of expressing the gifts of the Reformation and asking forgiveness for the division which followed theological disputes.

The year 2017 will also mark 50 years of the international Lutheran-Catholic dialogue, which has yielded notable ecumenical results, of which most significant is the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification *(JDDJ). **The JDDJ was signed by the LWF and the Catholic Church in 1999, **and affirmed by the World Methodist Council in 2006. The declaration nullified centuries’ old disputes between Catholics and Lutherans over the basic truths of the doctrine of justification, which was at the center of the 16th century Reformation.

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/01/25/pope_to_travel_to_sweden_for_joint_reformation_commemoration/1203462

Let’s not forget the Catholic Church had a response to that declaration

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_01081998_off-answer-catholic_en.html

 

[Memaw]

I don’t think anyone ever considered the Orthodox Churches as protestant. Certainly not the Catholic Church! Their Sacraments are valid according to Apostolic Succession.They had nothing to do with the protestant reformation. I think the reason why the word protestant is becoming obsolete is because they have divided and divided so much especially over the past 50 years that they no longer want to be all put in the same basket. It’s going to be hard to find a word to replace it and break a long standing habit of both Protestants and Catholics as well as government and societies use of it. The protestant reformation started a chain reaction that has resulted in today’s protestant, situation. Maybe it’s time they take a long look at the history of Protestantism so they can be better informed. So many protestant ministers that have come into the Catholic faith have said they paid very little if any attention to Christian History back to Christ. They just took it for granted what they were taught against the Catholic Church was correct. Never really looked into history until considering converting. Most were very surprised by TRUTH, Prayers for all. God Bless, Memaw

 

[pianistclare]

Side note:

Father Ruggero/
your inbox is full.

npatrol:

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Let us remind each other of this truth on a regular basis, shall we?

 

[pianistclare]

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Father, in your opinion, is the Vatican saying the Reformation was necessary?

No. As with the break between East and West, it was a great tragedy that resulted from sins on both sides…most especially the Catholic side, above all, because of the greater responsibility.

I think Pope Benedict expressed this greater responsibility very well in a letter to the world’s bishops in 2007, which has since been made public. He wrote:

Looking back over the past, to the divisions which in the course of the centuries have rent the Body of Christ, one continually has the impression that, at critical moments when divisions were coming about, not enough was done by the Church’s leaders to maintain or regain reconciliation and unity. One has the impression that omissions on the part of the Church have had their share of blame for the fact that these divisions were able to harden.

 

[mattp0625]

I think you are still not understanding what this (side) discussion is about and it is rather tedious to read the same thing over and over. So perhaps for the last time - the methodology was consistent and, according to the compilers, gave them the numbers they were after.

Most of us here disagree, and think the numbers are nonsense. BUT if you claim that there are ‘thousands upon thousands’ Protestant denominations, then you have to take the 240 with it. Can’t say one is true and the other is ‘fabricated.’ They come from the same supposition.

Apples and oranges

Denominations cannot agree on doctrine and/or have different forms of governance

All members of the RCC submit to the same dogmas, doctrine, and authority.

Those who do not are not part of the RCC

For example, the Maronite Rite conforms to dogma, doctrine and the pope’s leadership. They originated out of the eastern church and some of their practices and prayers are different.

The Polish National Church does not conform in this manner.

 

[GKC]

Apples and oranges

Denominations cannot agree on doctrine and/or have different forms of governance

All members of the RCC submit to the same dogmas, doctrine, and authority.

Those who do not are not part of the RCC

For example, the Maronite Rite conforms to dogma, doctrine and the pope’s leadership. They originated out of the eastern church and some of their practices and prayers are different.

The Polish National Church does not conform in this manner.

Surely, CSF, you can explicate the error in this logic, with respect to the numbers and the (presumed source) that this thread has been wrestling with. Simplicity itself.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Apples and oranges

Denominations cannot agree on doctrine and/or have different forms of governance

All members of the RCC submit to the same dogmas, doctrine, and authority.

Those who do not are not part of the RCC

For example, the Maronite Rite conforms to dogma, doctrine and the pope’s leadership. They originated out of the eastern church and some of their practices and prayers are different.

The Polish National Church does not conform in this manner.

I think we are not speaking about the same thing. In the earlier post, I described a methodology used to get certain questionable numbers. That’s all.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Surely, CSF, you can explicate the error in this logic, with respect to the numbers and the (presumed source) that this thread has been wrestling with. Simplicity itself.

Oh GKC… it goes on and on and on. I’m starting to have bad dreams.

 

[GKC]

Oh GKC… it goes on and on and on. I’m starting to have bad dreams.

Have you tried a night light?

 

[StGeorgesSquire]

Have you tried a night light?

Have you tried turning it off and on?

 

[GKC]

Have you tried turning it off and on?

Yes.

I turned it off and left it for over 6 months. When I turned it on, the problem was gone.

 

[JonNC]

I don’t think anyone ever considered the Orthodox Churches as protestant. Certainly not the Catholic Church! Their Sacraments are valid according to Apostolic Succession.They had nothing to do with the protestant reformation. I think the reason why the word protestant is becoming obsolete is because they have divided and divided so much especially over the past 50 years that they no longer want to be all put in the same basket. It’s going to be hard to find a word to replace it and break a long standing habit of both Protestants and Catholics as well as government and societies use of it. The protestant reformation started a chain reaction that has resulted in today’s protestant, situation. Maybe it’s time they take a long look at the history of Protestantism so they can be better informed. So many protestant ministers that have come into the Catholic faith have said they paid very little if any attention to Christian History back to Christ. They just took it for granted what they were taught against the Catholic Church was correct. Never really looked into history until considering converting. Most were very surprised by TRUTH, Prayers for all. God Bless, Memaw

Let me understand. Your definition of Protestant is that orders and sacraments are invalid. Can you provide a source for that definition? Some Orthodox do not recognize Catholic orders. Is it okay for them to refer to you as Protestant, keeping in mind that the Catholic Church has something to do with the Reformation. By the way, Anglicans had nothing to do with the “Protestant” reformation, and many of the so called Protestant churches didn’t either.

Lutheran and Anglican priests go through extensive seminary training, so that isn’t a marker for Protestant either.

The problem with the term is that it is applied in ways it was not originally defined. Now, there’s nothing wrong with that until people start to use it to imply things that have no basis in fact.

Jon

 

[StGeorgesSquire]

By the way, Anglicans had nothing to do with the “Protestant” reformation, and many of the so called Protestant churches didn’t either.

JonNC:

Lutheran and Anglican priests go through extensive seminary training, so that isn’t a marker for Protestant either.

This is very true. I have a friend who’s going to a Lutheran seminary and I’m thinking about going to an Episcopal one myself (If you can spare a prayer, I would greatly appreciate it ) For Episcopalians, I believe it depends on the seminary but it’s generally 3/4 years of post-secondary education. I think Lutherans have something similar (but it varies between LCMS, WELS, and ELCA.)

 

[JonNC]

Apples and oranges

Denominations cannot agree on doctrine and/or have different forms of governance

All members of the RCC submit to the same dogmas, doctrine, and authority.

Those who do not are not part of the RCC

For example, the Maronite Rite conforms to dogma, doctrine and the pope’s leadership. They originated out of the eastern church and some of their practices and prayers are different.

The Polish National Church does not conform in this manner.

And here is the false narrative. Why do you expect Lutherans and Baptists to agree any more than Catholics and Baptists do?

Jon

 

[StGeorgesSquire]

And here is the false narrative. Why do you expect Lutherans and Baptists to agree any more than Catholics and Baptists do?

Jon

Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t Baptists owe their history to Calvin?

 

[JonNC]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t Baptists owe their history to Calvin?

I would expect so, at least in part.

Jon

 

[mattp0625]

And here is the false narrative. Why do you expect Lutherans and Baptists to agree any more than Catholics and Baptists do?

Jon

I don’t expect them to agree. That’s why they are separated

It’s not false

 

[ComplineSanFran]

And here is the false narrative. Why do you expect Lutherans and Baptists to agree any more than Catholics and Baptists do?

Jon

Or Catholics and Catholics. In my circle of friends and acquaintances, there are social justice Catholics, there are wonderfully strong feminists who will fight til their dying days for women’s rights in the church, there are gay and lesbian men and women who are married and starting to have children, there are Dorothy Day Catholics, and Thomas Merton mystics. There are strong ecumenical and interfaith proponents who will happily share their pulpits with other non RC people of faith. There are Catholics who are on the side of tradition and those who are on the side of new innovative theology. I know Catholics who pray to Santa Muerta and those who practice Zen Buddhism.

I have never quite met two who are alike or who agree on everything, even things on the ‘checklist’.

Some have more in common with me as an Anglican than fellow Catholics.

Isn’t that the way of things though? I honestly have never known anything different.