Question for Lutherans

  • Thread starter Thread starter StGeorgesSquire
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I’ve posted the story in the past. And someone, on this board, recently posted an even better explanation than my multiple attempts. The books for this likely source of 40,000 (36,000, 30,000, 25,000 - the number changes over the periodic surveys) would be from
World Christian Trends or its sister publication, the World Christian Encyclopedia.

The group which does these sociological surveys uses an idiosyncratic method of counting denominations, for their own particular purposes. Key to it is that each appearance of what one would count as a “denomination”, in a given country, counts as a separate denomination in the total. As they said, some years back:

"Thank you for your inquiry. I can assure you that the figure of 39,000 is in no way inflated. This number represents our most current, up-to-date data. As we are constantly updating this figure, it is not published in print form. The figure of 33,800 from the year 2000 was printed in our book World Christian Trends, (Pasadena, CA: William Carey Library, 2001). Part 12 of World Christian Trends (WCT), Table 12-1 gives figures of denominational totals for all 238 countries of the world. These figures are also represented graphically in WCT on page 917, Global Map 14. The definition for denominations used in WCT, and also in our publication World Christian Encyclopedia (Oxford, 2001) is as follows:

“Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it. As a statistical unit in this survey, a ‘denomination’ always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries.”

It’s useless to try to explain this, to certain mindsets. But that post I am remembering, from not long ago, did a pretty good job. It possibly could be found, by searching this forum. But it’s time for me to go outside and smoke a pipe.

Added. I found the post:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=13903288&highlight=world+christian+encyclopedia#post13903288

He is off the mark on his final few lines, but it’s a very good post.
 
I totally agree, but there is something in me that delights at the thought of someone counting all those little storefront churches in America and calling them a denomination.
 
JonNC said:
I think it counterproductive to refer in this way to dialogue partners

Jon
Click to expand...
Ok, rebuke accepted. I apologize. Dialogue partners I can agree with, dialogue indicates to me building a relationship by each giving the other the be benefit of the doubt.
 
It stands up well for the purposes of the compilers of the books. Who have their own reasons for studying the change in the composition of the structure of national religious structures within national borders, over time. Or something like that.
 
Exactly. The names are fun, and some of them are perfectly lovely and some of them are dreadfully frightening. But no doubt about it, they are multitudinous.
 
I don’t know the names but I also heard more than once, some of the protestant ministers that have converted to Catholism say the same thing. Like I said before, there is only ONE, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. God Bless, Memaw
 
And they are upfront about how they are counting: “Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries” (emphasis added). It’s not unsound for whatever they are doing, it’s just how they are doing it. And that makes it meaningless for discussions and proselytizing such as goes on here.
 
Another question I propose: What did the Council of Trent do in terms of reforming the Catholic Church as compared to the Reformation brought on by Luther, Calvin, etc.?
 
I agree, and I think that the so called “{non denomination{” churches with only one parish are counted as separate denominations thus greatly inflating the number.
 
GKC said:
And they are upfront about how they are counting: “Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries” (emphasis added). It’s not unsound for whatever they are doing, it’s just how they are doing it. And that makes it meaningless for discussions and proselytizing such as goes on here./QUOTE]

Yup.
Click to expand...
 
GKC said:
And they are upfront about how they are counting: “Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries” (emphasis added). It’s not unsound for whatever they are doing, it’s just how they are doing it. And that makes it meaningless for discussions and proselytizing such as goes on here.
Click to expand...
All the Rites and Churches that fall under the Catholic Church umbrella have the same Sacraments, believe the same Creed and are under the Pope. You can’t call them different denominations in the slightest degree! Others that are not under the Pope but still have the same seven Sacraments, believe the same Creed are still Catholic but not under the Pope. Big difference between that and the “many” denominations of protestants that don’t even agree with each other on many important beliefs. God Bless, Memaw
 
Memaw said:
All the Rites and Churches that fall under the Catholic Church umbrella have the same Sacraments, believe the same Creed and are under the Pope. You can’t call them different denominations in the slightest degree! Others that are not under the Pope but still have the same seven Sacraments, believe the same Creed are still Catholic but not under the Pope. Big difference between that and the “many” denominations of protestants that don’t even agree with each other on many important beliefs. God Bless, Memaw
Click to expand...
The source cited doesn’t call them different denominations. They count the appearance of the RCC, in each separate country, as a different denomination for the purposes of their sociological studies. If the Episcopal Church appears in more than one country (and it does: 17), for the purposes of these folk, it’s counted as 17 different denominations. This isn’t about particular sui iuris Churches. It’s about the methodology the folks are using.

Read it again:

“Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world’s 238 countries” (emphasis added).

Any Churches that share RCC beliefs, but are not under the Pope would not be counted as RCC Churches in that country. As I quoted before, their definition of a “denomination” is

“Any agency consisting of a number of congregations or churches voluntarily aligning themselves with it…”. Not under the Pope, not aligned with the RCC, not counted as RCC, but another denomination. Sui iuris Churches in one country, are under the Pope, are part of the RCC, count as one denomination in each country they appear in. That denomination is the RCC.
 
The discipline can vary from one to another, and can change within one Rite over time.
The theology is the same.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top